AEV suspension discussion thread

[2manyprojects]

@2manyprojects Just a few observations from your post, but before I do I want to state something. I won't speak for everyone here but at least for myself the reason to have the discussion around the AEV suspension is to A) learn more for anyone willing to give detailed explanations of why AEV does what they do and B) to have a discussion around the kit so I can better guide others as they ask for feedback and advice. I like learning and understanding, even if it doesn't have a direct practical application to my current truck because who knows how it might in my future truck?

UglyViking (can I call you Ugly???) No worries! I enjoy the discussion also and am constantly learning. I was cursed with a mechanical engineering degree early in life, and spent 35+ yrs doing R&D and product development in the automotive, aerospace, and consumer products world. I'm compelled to understand, and value other viewpoints. I will say only AEV can truly answer your questions as to what their kit does. While I lack the insight to debate all the incremental points of the kit, I do believe AEV has a unique relationship with Ram engineering and access to suspension design and testing details the others don't have.
A couple of questions and clarifications:

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, hopefully others will have a discussion as well. I think you hit the nail on the head on the power wagon vs OEM+.

Now, on to a few observations.

#1 - Your needs make sense and I understood why you went AEV. I personally think I may have just stuck with a standard "leveling" kit, but I get the desire for ground clearance on these long wheelbase trucks (not something we actually discussed in the pros/cons so good callout!) and ability to match your trailers hitch point (which, holy cow how does any truck line up? So I think overall for your use case it seems like a great fit. Do I think you could have gotten better performance from another kit? Absolutely. I think the Carli R2 coils would do basically the same thing the AEV kit does but with a vastly increased ride. I do think you should make sure to paint pen all your bolts from the AEV suspension though. Just as a confirmation step.

Can you quantify "better performance"? Not sure what "increased ride" is, but am guessing we're entering that subjective "favorite color" zone. I considered the R2s but given my load needs and the fact that they are still "softer" than OEM I was concerned I'd still get too much sag and "pogo'ing" w/the trailer. All fasteners have been marked at install, and get checked/retorqued periodically.

#2 - No cutting on a new truck I get, but there was cutting, you just didn't see it or do it. The old AEV kit didn't come with a knuckle, and the price was cheaper and easier to argue for, but the issue was that for whatever reason drilling out the knuckle for the flip resulted in a lot of them becoming loose. I'm guessing improper installation but who knows. Anyway, sounds like that was taken care of for you and is a non, issue, which is awesome. That said, the current version does require you to cut the coil spring mount on the drivers side. Perhaps something you or others are more comfortable doing, but frankly I don't see an issue trimming a bit of the pinch weld to clear vs not. This is going to be highly dependent on wheel offset, true tire size, and lift height, but just calling out that there was serious trimming done.

Agreed on cutting; my poor wording meant to convey I wasn't crazy about visible sheetmetal amateur mods on the new truck. I considered doing the install myself (AEV's instructions are the best I've ever encountered aftermarket, rivaling the old Toyota factory manuals) and I researched the component cutting necessary for install. Again, considering potential warranty implications this leaned me toward having an AEV dealer do the install.

#3 - Cost. I'll be honest here, everyone is in a different financial position and chooses to spend their money in different areas. That said, Considering the truck is a 55k+ truck, the trailer is a 65k+ trailer and you've got the same amount invested in wheels and tires no matter what brand lift you go with, I struggle to be all that concerned with the difference in price between the AEV and Thuren vs Carli. Just for the sake of example I put together some quick builds:

• Thuren build - $2,770
  • Fox 2.0 shocks, 2.75" front springs, +1" rear springs, rear trackbar, Fox 2.0 steering damper
• Carli build - $3,585
  • 3.25" commuter system, radius arm drops, front 3.25" springs, rear ~2" springs, Fox 2.0 shocks, track bar, bump stop drops
• AEV build- $2,919
  • Everyone should probably know what is in here since it's a 1 size kit so I won't list.

To be completely transparent, I think for the use case you stated Thuren is not the way you want to go, the springs are way too soft unless you are 100% planning on adding bags. I also didn't account for the procal on the Thuren/Carli builds, so for the sake of argument add another $170 to both.

Even still, you're talking a difference of ~ $1,000 for the AEV vs Carli. As you've stated it's not worth it for you, but I think it's a vastly better system in basically every way, but perhaps overkill for what you're looking for.

Didn't mean to drag us into the weeds here with component prices. Sadly, when I purchased about a yr ago, the AEV was more like $2400, w/Procal. My point is if you consider the AEV kit in terms of the geometry bits included, the price/value compares more favorably with the Carli and Thuren offerings. Especially if you want to be in the 3" front lift / rear lift zone, where the radius arm drop and and steering/track bar mods are more desirable (Thuren doesn't offer). Again, the AEV is more than a "spacer" kit.
As for the cost, we all have different views on what is "valuable". I struggled with spending for any kit that likely rode better unloaded, but would be potentially worse than stock for my towing needs. Even if cost wasn't a factor, I'm not convinced even the best Carli system would be appropriate, and at some point we have to be honest about how much more "performance" there is to be gained for $$$, and how much we realistically need. For me personally, it was about finding a good cost/value balance to start with, and balancing other truck mods (still want diff lockers...). Again, quantify "vastly better in basically every way"; my favorite color is the best....

Ok, now that I got that out of the way. I really want to know how the camper has treated you? I've seen those things online and they look really cool. Saw one down in south carolina this year and it looked slick at least from the road. Hows using it? And second, did you have the titan spare tire tank in this photo? I've been looking at one but it looks like it hangs way down from photos I've seen online. Any chance you have any other pics?

Overall, I wish there was a way to try all the system's out there and assess them 1st hand (anybody w/ a Carli Dominator want to loan out so I can test???). Interestingly, with the AEV kit installed, I have all the geometry components for a 3" lift installed and believe I could change out springs and shocks in the future; I'll have to ponder that.

Many have snubbed the "bolt-on" nature of the AEV kit; I respect that view. I'm more the opposite, as I'm not an exceptional welder and would be real concerned with anyone welding on a new warranty truck, especially with all the thin modern steel alloys and heat treatments(and electronics) that are used to make lighter trucks these days. Reality is our trucks are bolted together. Agreed if anything isn't maintained, you should expect trouble, but I'm skeptical any mfr can put out something catastrophically flawed for very long. Trust, but verify....

As for our trailer, I don't want to de-rail your thread here, but while it's not perfect we're lovin' it. The ground clearance still exceeds the truck, and I'm almost embarrassed at how well we can camp completely off-grid. It's a compromise from conventional US trailers, but leans to durability and utility. It's still a 26' x 7.5' x 11' tall box, and won't fit a lot of places, but I'm confident it won't be falling apart after a couple seasons of dirt "corrugations" travel, like too many new US campers are prone to. PM me and I can answer in more detail.

I'll try to put together a separate thread on the Titan tank, as I found very little info on here. It is installed in my trailer pic, and can't be seen w/o crawling under the truck, unlike the extra capacity replacement main tanks out there.

 

[Crusty old shellback]

I know some people like them, and some even swear by them, but for me, I am not a fan of spacers, in lift kits or wheel offsets. To me, its like putting a bandaid on the problem, rather than fixing it the right way.
You never see a real race vechicle with a spacer in the suspension or on the wheels.
But that's just me.

 

[2manyprojects]

I know some people like them, and some even swear by them, but for me, I am not a fan of spacers, in lift kits or wheel offsets. To me, its like putting a bandaid on the problem, rather than fixing it the right way.
You never see a real race vechicle with a spacer in the suspension or on the wheels.
But that's just me.

I'm generally not a fan of spacers either. On wheels, people don't realize the forces they exert on the wheel hub, lugs, and bearings. They're generally cheap, generic add-ons that don't provide any performance benefit except providing some lift. I put body lifts in that category generally, also, but acknowledge some do serve a purpose. I think you have to be open minded about what you're trying to accomplish and what methods will reach it.

Race vehicles are generally purpose-designed and built, and shouldn't need 'em....

In the '80s it was it was a big negative to use spacer blocks to lift rear leaf spring trucks; axle wrap, premature spring fatigue, ... you'd thought they were destroying the environment. Now you find them standard on many trucks from the factory.

Seen these? Thuren rear spacer kit

 

[UglyViking]

UglyViking (can I call you Ugly???) No worries! I enjoy the discussion also and am constantly learning. I was cursed with a mechanical engineering degree early in life, and spent 35+ yrs doing R&D and product development in the automotive, aerospace, and consumer products world. I'm compelled to understand, and value other viewpoints. I will say only AEV can truly answer your questions as to what their kit does. While I lack the insight to debate all the incremental points of the kit, I do believe AEV has a unique relationship with Ram engineering and access to suspension design and testing details the others don't have.
A couple of questions and clarifications:

Please, call me Ugly, only my mother calls me UglyViking Also, please forgive anything that doesn't quite make sense I started reading and responding early and so things may be a little "wonky". As you stated, it may be a bit of "my favorite color" but I think there is more to it than that.

Can you quantify "better performance"? Not sure what "increased ride" is, but am guessing we're entering that subjective "favorite color" zone. I considered the R2s but given my load needs and the fact that they are still "softer" than OEM I was concerned I'd still get too much sag and "pogo'ing" w/the trailer. All fasteners have been marked at install, and get checked/retorqued periodically.

Good call outs. What I mean by "better performance" is increased up and downtravel over the factory suspension primarily. What I meant by "increased ride" is a softer ride, both on and off road, due to the springs and shocks. The coils on Thuren and Carli are longer than stock, and "softer" as well, so the ride is increased. This is obviously a double edged sword when towing frequently, but I think Carli's R2 rear coils would function basically as good as the OEM rear coils due to them being linear.

Obviously this is all trade off, what is good for towing won't be great for comfort, off road "performance" (ie. speed through poorly maintained dirt roads, ability to flex substantially more than OEM, etc.), and vise versa.

Agreed on cutting; my poor wording meant to convey I wasn't crazy about visible sheetmetal amateur mods on the new truck. I considered doing the install myself (AEV's instructions are the best I've ever encountered aftermarket, rivaling the old Toyota factory manuals) and I researched the component cutting necessary for install. Again, considering potential warranty implications this leaned me toward having an AEV dealer do the install.

I totally agree on AEVs instructions! They took the time and hired the right person to make instructions that are seemingly clear to follow and obvious. Everyone has a different feeling on warranty, so the AEV kit makes sense if you're concerned about your suspension warranty.

Didn't mean to drag us into the weeds here with component prices. Sadly, when I purchased about a yr ago, the AEV was more like $2400, w/Procal. My point is if you consider the AEV kit in terms of the geometry bits included, the price/value compares more favorably with the Carli and Thuren offerings. Especially if you want to be in the 3" front lift / rear lift zone, where the radius arm drop and and steering/track bar mods are more desirable (Thuren doesn't offer). Again, the AEV is more than a "spacer" kit.
As for the cost, we all have different views on what is "valuable". I struggled with spending for any kit that likely rode better unloaded, but would be potentially worse than stock for my towing needs. Even if cost wasn't a factor, I'm not convinced even the best Carli system would be appropriate, and at some point we have to be honest about how much more "performance" there is to be gained for $$$, and how much we realistically need. For me personally, it was about finding a good cost/value balance to start with, and balancing other truck mods (still want diff lockers...). Again, quantify "vastly better in basically every way"; my favorite color is the best....

I wasn't attempting to drag into the weeds either, but rather share a real life comparison of current pricing, which is insane today, amongst what I consider the top suspension providers. I wan't to be clear on something here, I do not hate the AEV kit. As I've said before I absolutely love AEVs work. I have wanted an AEV jeep since the JK first came out (thats when they came to my attention) and I think their design (in terms of visual components especially) is second to none. I just struggle with this specific kit. I think most likely because of all the brackets and poor experience with other kits with a lot of brackets, who knows maybe it's purely a mental thing.

As an aside, the absolute biggest problem I have is not with the kit itself, but with the AEV fanboys who can't tell you why the AEV kit is best, it just is. Fanboys get my goat, I don't care if it's AEV, Thuren, Carli, Apple, whatever. Fanboys, eh!

Anyway, I suppose we could discuss back and forth on the needs of a track bar relocation, but in the end either AEV knows something others don't (possible, considering they relationship with FCA) or AEV is being required to move the track bar (same reason). As a comparison, if you took two identical trucks and one had an AEV suspension, and another a literal puck spacer, I wonder if anyone would be able to tell the difference. I think that anyone that claims the AEV kit rides better than stock is likely experiencing better ride due to the 37-40" tires more than anything else. The same is 100% true of Carli/Thuren, although I think you will notice a better ride also due to springs and shocks, so it stacks.

Overall, I wish there was a way to try all the system's out there and assess them 1st hand (anybody w/ a Carli Dominator want to loan out so I can test???). Interestingly, with the AEV kit installed, I have all the geometry components for a 3" lift installed and believe I could change out springs and shocks in the future; I'll have to ponder that.

I believe people have discussed this in the past and were told not to for whatever reason. I think the real struggle is trying to find a "no lift" set of soft coils. Thuren has +1" front coils, and 0"/-0.5" rear coils which would probably swap out nicely, but I don't believe they recommend it (and honestly not sure why).

Many have snubbed the "bolt-on" nature of the AEV kit; I respect that view. I'm more the opposite, as I'm not an exceptional welder and would be real concerned with anyone welding on a new warranty truck, especially with all the thin modern steel alloys and heat treatments(and electronics) that are used to make lighter trucks these days. Reality is our trucks are bolted together. Agreed if anything isn't maintained, you should expect trouble, but I'm skeptical any mfr can put out something catastrophically flawed for very long. Trust, but verify....

I agree with you here. I think it's more about what could happen than what will. Much more likely that a bolt will walk than a weld will split. Don't get me wrong, if either happens you're pretty boned, but I think most don't like all the bolt on pieces just for that fear of a bolt walking.

As for our trailer, I don't want to de-rail your thread here, but while it's not perfect we're lovin' it. The ground clearance still exceeds the truck, and I'm almost embarrassed at how well we can camp completely off-grid. It's a compromise from conventional US trailers, but leans to durability and utility. It's still a 26' x 7.5' x 11' tall box, and won't fit a lot of places, but I'm confident it won't be falling apart after a couple seasons of dirt "corrugations" travel, like too many new US campers are prone to. PM me and I can answer in more detail.

I've got a conventional, I'll prob reach out to you at some point! They look great and built to last, the biggest thing I'm looking at is room for the kids.

I'll try to put together a separate thread on the Titan tank, as I found very little info on here. It is installed in my trailer pic, and can't be seen w/o crawling under the truck, unlike the extra capacity replacement main tanks out there.

Please do. 100% interested in this. Was planning on adding some jerry cans but if I can save bed space that is great.

I know some people like them, and some even swear by them, but for me, I am not a fan of spacers, in lift kits or wheel offsets. To me, its like putting a bandaid on the problem, rather than fixing it the right way.
You never see a real race vechicle with a spacer in the suspension or on the wheels.
But that's just me.

I agree but race vehicles are built with a singular focus and have the ability to do all the custom work. I am sure someone could offer similar for our trucks, but there is no way most people would be comfortable installing.

I agree on the spacers, primarily in that it's another bolt that can walk, fail, etc. and another mating surface. I think the issue of wheel spacers causing issues isn't directly on them, it's that everyone wants their wheels way out of the well, so that puts a ton of stress on bearings and everything. The same issue is there for high negative offset without the spacer.

 

[Lumpskie]

I'm really late to the game and really don't have too much to add. (mainly because I only scanned a few posts and didn't read the whole thing)

My thoughts on my AEV kit:

Positives:

1. The relationship between roll center and instant center is maintained. This is a massive plus in my book. People argue a lot about sway bars but I don't hear many people mention the inherent stability of a vehicle, as driven by its geometry. Factory geometry is going to represent the best on road handling... turn-in, stability about the roll axis, front/rear balance... all of these things just work when you keep the stock geometry. Because of this, I like relocating track bars and links. I've put about 70,000 miles on my Land Cruiser on a long travel setup. I've had a bolt on track bar relocation bracket for many of those miles and have never had an issue. I think design quality is key here as you need to be sure that bracket is placed/bolted so that it is stable in all axes.

2. Front axle relocation. On my rig, the AEV kit moves my axle forward to the perfect location to pair with 37" tires. Clearance is perfect, even when cycling the suspension, and all the factory plastic fender liners are intact. Living in the rust belt, I consider that a big plus. I also like that they used a bracket on the axle rather than longer radius arms. This let's me run whatever radius arm I want and also keeps the springs straight. I have seen a lot of "banana'd" springs due to axle relocations.

3. I actually like the Bilstein shocks. They do offer slightly more travel than stock (only 1 inch) and I like the valving. I have no idea what valving uses, as they call it "proprietary valving" but it feels good on and off the pavement. I suspect they are a digressive setup, just based upon how they feel when I hit speed bumps at 40 mph... very similar to my Land Cruiser with a digressive Icon setup.

4: I like the high steer as well as the bigger forged drag link. I've had a friend destroy his drag link crossing a frozen mud puddle... ice was only 4 inches thick.

Negatives:

1. Springs: Honestly, I am slowly coming around on this one. Originally, I hated that AEV used stock springs. Now, I am sort of indifferent. I wish they used a dual rate tapered coil where the lower rate was entirely a "dead coil" at ride height instead of a spacer in the rear. I also wish the axle relocation bracket in the front was shallower to allow for a taller free height, dual rate spring in front. This would allow me to nerd out a little more. But, as it sits, my rig climbs higher than my buddy's 3rd gen on a full Carli setup. So, I guess I can't complain too much.

2. Roll stiffness. I have found (as I'm sure you all have seen in my other threads) that the stock front roll stiffness is way to high for more applications. AEV keeps roll stiffness stock, just like all of the other characteristics. AEV also doesn't offer a way to reduce it. Radius arm bind seems to be the biggest contributor, but the swaybar does play a roll there too. It seems to be a pretty easy fix... but does hamper the suspension in "factory" form.

Take away:

My rig drives so well on the road and doesn't tire me out at all. Driving from Colorado to New Hampshire was a joy, even my wife and kids loved it. Off pavement, I had to make 2 changes for my rig to behave the way I wanted it to. first, I put a PW radius arm on and second I pulled the swaybar. Now, my rig could do light rock crawling without an issue. Like I mentioned above, It can climb about 24.5 vertical inches. My buddy's Carli setup can climb 21.5. Is the ride on bumpy, pot hole roads, great? No. But I can rock crawl a rig witihout loosing any payload capability. I can still tow just as much as factory without springs squatting. I do like that. Do I think this setup is for everyone? No. I think this kit work for people who want the bigger tires... the ability to get off pavement occasionally but maintain the stock capability of the rig.


EDIT: Since everyone likes pictures... here's the makeshift RTI with my Prospector and my buddy's 3rd gen 3500 on the Carli setup. Both rigs are setup to run trails as well as tow.

Here's a shot of the passenger side... again stock springs on here. The front compression side is on the bump stop and passenger side is limited on down travel by the shock. In the rear, the compression side is 1.5" from the bump stop with an almost empty bed (spare tire and a box of manuals in there)... I think that's a good compromise.

 

[Crusty old shellback]

2many and ugly,
I think the spacer issue has become mainstream nowadays and has generally been accepted. That's probably because the suspension manufactures have basically pushed them on us. Just about every lift kit out there comes with spacers for the rear. probably to keep cost down. Some do offer add a leaf's to lift the truck, but at a higher cost, and a stiffer suspension.

Very few offer replacement springs as part of the lift because they are more expensive. It seems most just want to lift their truck to look cool like all the other cool kids and don't think much about using the truck off road.

Then there is the smaller group, such as us, who want to use our trucks of road and are looking for that magical do all suspension. Then we hit the perverable wall of cost, and have to decide will the lower cost of a alternative still meet our needs, i.e. spacers and stock springs.

Granted, some manufactures have started using spacer blocks on their rear axles, but they are not the large 6" blocks you see that come with the lift kits, more like 2".

I will admit, that yes, I have both 3" suspension lift blocks along with a 3" add a leaf and 3" body lift blocks on the wifes truck to clear the 37's on it. But that truck has only been off road once in the 16 plus years it's been lifted, and only pulled a 23' toy hauler once out of necessity. My K5 Blazer with a full off road suspension springs would not tow the trailer safely. But her truck is a daily driven mall crawler show truck. I am however now looking at replacing the lift and body blocks with a full on 9" suspension lift with new hangers and springs for the rear.

On my K5, yea I know leaf springs, the suspension was set up to perform great both on and off road. 12/18 inches of travel F/R. It would also still carry the factory rated load. However, when trying to tow with it, even a small camping trailer, it just would not work. The springs were too soft and the trailer would easily sway, no matter how I had it set up.

So like I said, everything is a compromise. We just have to decide what is best for OUR NEEDS.

 

[Rockcrawlindude]

I agree with @Crusty old shellback on wheel spacers. I don’t think they should be used on a vehicle that sees pavement. If you put them on your cut up jeep that’s for trails only that’s fine with me. But wheel spacers are a different argument

Spacers/lift blocks don’t bother me as long as they aren’t much more than 2” maybe. Many trucks come from the factory with “lift blocks”. Spacers don’t really hurt anything but you don’t get the benefit from the additional travel that a taller spring would’ve given you. I’ve never installed more than a 1” block but I had a Ford F-150 that had a factory ~2” block didn’t really have any complaints about it. Actually did really well for a 1/2 ton.

Once you get too tall of a lift block, use an aluminum block, stack blocks, or reuse U bolts then things get sketchy. I used aluminum degree shims when I was younger and one broke and spit out. It was pretty crappy. I hope they don’t sell alum blocks but they probably do.

If you install spacers or even new coils but then start adding bolt on relocation brackets that’s a no go for me. If you want new brackets they need to be welded on to the axle or the frame.

 

[2manyprojects]

I'm really late to the game and really don't have too much to add. (mainly because I only scanned a few posts and didn't read the whole thing)

My thoughts on my AEV kit:

Positives:

1. The relationship between roll center and instant center is maintained. This is a massive plus in my book. People argue a lot about sway bars but I don't hear many people mention the inherent stability of a vehicle, as driven by its geometry. Factory geometry is going to represent the best on road handling... turn-in, stability about the roll axis, front/rear balance... all of these things just work when you keep the stock geometry. Because of this, I like relocating track bars and links. I've put about 70,000 miles on my Land Cruiser on a long travel setup. I've had a bolt on track bar relocation bracket for many of those miles and have never had an issue. I think design quality is key here as you need to be sure that bracket is placed/bolted so that it is stable in all axes.

2. Front axle relocation. On my rig, the AEV kit moves my axle forward to the perfect location to pair with 37" tires. Clearance is perfect, even when cycling the suspension, and all the factory plastic fender liners are intact. Living in the rust belt, I consider that a big plus. I also like that they used a bracket on the axle rather than longer radius arms. This let's me run whatever radius arm I want and also keeps the springs straight. I have seen a lot of "banana'd" springs due to axle relocations.

3. I actually like the Bilstein shocks. They do offer slightly more travel than stock (only 1 inch) and I like the valving. I have no idea what valving uses, as they call it "proprietary valving" but it feels good on and off the pavement. I suspect they are a digressive setup, just based upon how they feel when I hit speed bumps at 40 mph... very similar to my Land Cruiser with a digressive Icon setup.

4: I like the high steer as well as the bigger forged drag link. I've had a friend destroy his drag link crossing a frozen mud puddle... ice was only 4 inches thick.

Negatives:

1. Springs: Honestly, I am slowly coming around on this one. Originally, I hated that AEV used stock springs. Now, I am sort of indifferent. I wish they used a dual rate tapered coil where the lower rate was entirely a "dead coil" at ride height instead of a spacer in the rear. I also wish the axle relocation bracket in the front was shallower to allow for a taller free height, dual rate spring in front. This would allow me to nerd out a little more. But, as it sits, my rig climbs higher than my buddy's 3rd gen on a full Carli setup. So, I guess I can't complain too much.

2. Roll stiffness. I have found (as I'm sure you all have seen in my other threads) that the stock front roll stiffness is way to high for more applications. AEV keeps roll stiffness stock, just like all of the other characteristics. AEV also doesn't offer a way to reduce it. Radius arm bind seems to be the biggest contributor, but the swaybar does play a roll there too. It seems to be a pretty easy fix... but does hamper the suspension in "factory" form.

Take away:

My rig drives so well on the road and doesn't tire me out at all. Driving from Colorado to New Hampshire was a joy, even my wife and kids loved it. Off pavement, I had to make 2 changes for my rig to behave the way I wanted it to. first, I put a PW radius arm on and second I pulled the swaybar. Now, my rig could do light rock crawling without an issue. Like I mentioned above, It can climb about 24.5 vertical inches. My buddy's Carli setup can climb 21.5. Is the ride on bumpy, pot hole roads, great? No. But I can rock crawl a rig witihout loosing any payload capability. I can still tow just as much as factory without springs squatting. I do like that. Do I think this setup is for everyone? No. I think this kit work for people who want the bigger tires... the ability to get off pavement occasionally but maintain the stock capability of the rig.


EDIT: Since everyone likes pictures... here's the makeshift RTI with my Prospector and my buddy's 3rd gen 3500 on the Carli setup. Both rigs are setup to run trails as well as tow.

Here's a shot of the passenger side... again stock springs on here. The front compression side is on the bump stop and passenger side is limited on down travel by the shock. In the rear, the compression side is 1.5" from the bump stop with an almost empty bed (spare tire and a box of manuals in there)... I think that's a good compromise.

Lumpskie, very well "articulated"....

Curious whether you considered adding a torsion front sway to your Prospector? I worked with Thuren to fit one on my truck, and immediately noticed more compliance without adding any noticeable lean during cornering.

Also, I have considered adding the PW radius arms; any issues with fitment?

I don't have access to a real ramp, but gotta toss more pics of the AEV suspension actually flexing...

 

[Crusty old shellback]

Well if we are showing off and flexing, heres my stock PW on 35s with the sway bar disconnected.

 

[Rockcrawlindude]

It doesn’t look like you guys gained very much flex vs the stock truck.

But, flex and stability are somewhat inversely proportional. A big part of the reason why the power wagon has a lower GVWR is because it has articu-link arms and softer springs.

People who are opting for the AEV kit probably need the maximum stability (slide in camper, lots of gear, etc) and not so much flex.

 

[Lumpskie]

Lumpskie, very well "articulated"....

Curious whether you considered adding a torsion front sway to your Prospector? I worked with Thuren to fit one on my truck, and immediately noticed more compliance without adding any noticeable lean during cornering.

Also, I have considered adding the PW radius arms; any issues with fitment?

I don't have access to a real ramp, but gotta toss more pics of the AEV suspension actually flexing...

Haha, thanks. I removed the front swaybar and installed only 1 articulink radius arm. I find no negative behavior at all... though there is a little more body roll than stock but the handling feels more balanced.

Stock, I climbed 16.5 inches
Swaybar removed: 19.5
Radius arm and swaybar removed: 24.5 which is the same as a stock power wagon.

With that climb and 37s clearing, I'm happy for now!

 

[2manyprojects]

Please, call me Ugly, only my mother calls me UglyViking Also, please forgive anything that doesn't quite make sense I started reading and responding early and so things may be a little "wonky". As you stated, it may be a bit of "my favorite color" but I think there is more to it than that.


Good call outs. What I mean by "better performance" is increased up and downtravel over the factory suspension primarily. What I meant by "increased ride" is a softer ride, both on and off road, due to the springs and shocks. The coils on Thuren and Carli are longer than stock, and "softer" as well, so the ride is increased. This is obviously a double edged sword when towing frequently, but I think Carli's R2 rear coils would function basically as good as the OEM rear coils due to them being linear.

Obviously this is all trade off, what is good for towing won't be great for comfort, off road "performance" (ie. speed through poorly maintained dirt roads, ability to flex substantially more than OEM, etc.), and vise versa.


I totally agree on AEVs instructions! They took the time and hired the right person to make instructions that are seemingly clear to follow and obvious. Everyone has a different feeling on warranty, so the AEV kit makes sense if you're concerned about your suspension warranty.


I wasn't attempting to drag into the weeds either, but rather share a real life comparison of current pricing, which is insane today, amongst what I consider the top suspension providers. I wan't to be clear on something here, I do not hate the AEV kit. As I've said before I absolutely love AEVs work. I have wanted an AEV jeep since the JK first came out (thats when they came to my attention) and I think their design (in terms of visual components especially) is second to none. I just struggle with this specific kit. I think most likely because of all the brackets and poor experience with other kits with a lot of brackets, who knows maybe it's purely a mental thing.

As an aside, the absolute biggest problem I have is not with the kit itself, but with the AEV fanboys who can't tell you why the AEV kit is best, it just is. Fanboys get my goat, I don't care if it's AEV, Thuren, Carli, Apple, whatever. Fanboys, eh!

Anyway, I suppose we could discuss back and forth on the needs of a track bar relocation, but in the end either AEV knows something others don't (possible, considering they relationship with FCA) or AEV is being required to move the track bar (same reason). As a comparison, if you took two identical trucks and one had an AEV suspension, and another a literal puck spacer, I wonder if anyone would be able to tell the difference. I think that anyone that claims the AEV kit rides better than stock is likely experiencing better ride due to the 37-40" tires more than anything else. The same is 100% true of Carli/Thuren, although I think you will notice a better ride also due to springs and shocks, so it stacks.


I believe people have discussed this in the past and were told not to for whatever reason. I think the real struggle is trying to find a "no lift" set of soft coils. Thuren has +1" front coils, and 0"/-0.5" rear coils which would probably swap out nicely, but I don't believe they recommend it (and honestly not sure why).


I agree with you here. I think it's more about what could happen than what will. Much more likely that a bolt will walk than a weld will split. Don't get me wrong, if either happens you're pretty boned, but I think most don't like all the bolt on pieces just for that fear of a bolt walking.


I've got a conventional, I'll prob reach out to you at some point! They look great and built to last, the biggest thing I'm looking at is room for the kids.


Please do. 100% interested in this. Was planning on adding some jerry cans but if I can save bed space that is great.


I agree but race vehicles are built with a singular focus and have the ability to do all the custom work. I am sure someone could offer similar for our trucks, but there is no way most people would be comfortable installing.

I agree on the spacers, primarily in that it's another bolt that can walk, fail, etc. and another mating surface. I think the issue of wheel spacers causing issues isn't directly on them, it's that everyone wants their wheels way out of the well, so that puts a ton of stress on bearings and everything. The same issue is there for high negative offset without the spacer.

I'm way too cynical to be a fanboy of anything, so I hope I don't come across as one for AEV. I'm just glad this discussion hasn't decayed to fanboys vs. AEV haters...

My point with challenging you on the "better performance" is that it's often in the eyes of the beholder. When I was an adult in the workforce, I had a job developing cushioning systems for a major sports footwear company. We had legions of bio-mechanists, sports med people, etc working with consumers to define the "best" cushioning. Short version is it varied greatly by person; what was "soft" and "better" for one was "mushy" and "bad" to another. I believe this carries to vehicle suspensions and what we each feel and notice. It's difficult to quantify, and I personally wind up prioritizing how often the suspension feels like it's contacting the bumpstops hard enough to feel (damage zone), and "how comfortable" the ride is, over time. It's about that desired usage you crave, and where you're willing to compromise.

I don't disagree with your statement about people being able to differentiate the AEV kit vs. pucks, but would add that includes the OEM ride, which some people think is OK. Also, I had the opportunity to drive my stock truck w/ just the 37's, and I didn't care for the ride and felt noticeable improvement (to me) once the AEV kit was installed. It may still have been mostly tire, but I think the Bilsteins and geometry changes played a factor, at least compared to the OEM base shocks.

To bring this back to the original focus of the thread (and my reptile-brain requires summation), it seems the AEV suspension kit could be defined:

• design focus is to replicate OEM ride, with 37" or larger tires (not softer)
• provides clean fender fitment of 37" tires by 3" front, 2" rear lift of the stock suspension and relocation of the front axle 1" forward
• emphasizes maintaining OEM suspension geometry for the lift by using more complex, bolt-on parts intensive methods than competitors
• uniquely modifies the steering geometry (high steer) in addition to the front and rear track bar pivot locations
• uses OEM springs and purpose-designed bolt-on spacers instead of longer / custom spring designs
• includes a new set of basic shocks matched to accommodate the lift and OEM springs
• (used to) includes electronics (ProCal) to enable mods to TPMS and tire size for the 37's

(not writing ad copy here, but just trying to expand "spacer lift")

My personal experience living with my AEV kit over 20k mi so far has been positive. During my last trip I ran the truck and trailer over scales multiple times, and got a "wake-up" call, finding that I had more static load in the truck than I realized; I was over the 10K GVW when towing by 6% , and was too close to the rear axle max for my comfort. I quickly adjusted, but it impressed (and somewhat frightened) me that the truck never felt overwhelmed, or seemed uncomfortable. I also dragged the trailer over / through some areas we probably had no right being in, without damage or drama. As Limpskie already mentioned, we've logged over 10K mi w/trailer on/off road and probably 3.5K mi truck-only on long trips in the last 10 mo, and the ride w/37's is very comfortable. My ultimate feedback is when my Wife actually said the ride was "very good"! This was after previously threatening my life and forcing me to add more entry steps when she saw what I'd done to the truck with the tires and lift...

I'll concede the AEV kit doesn't provide the soft unloaded ride that other vendors focus on, nor maximum extreme off-road articulation. I don't think the AEV suffers severely off-road, and ultimately is more capable than I'm willing to push a truck this big. I'd rather spend future money on locking diffs, and maybe consider shocks/springs. It still comes back to intentions and compromises, YMMV. Besides, if it did we'd only need one vehicle and what fun would that be?

 

[Rockcrawlindude]

I'm way too cynical to be a fanboy of anything, so I hope I don't come across as one for AEV. I'm just glad this discussion hasn't decayed to fanboys vs. AEV haters...

My point with challenging you on the "better performance" is that it's often in the eyes of the beholder. When I was an adult in the workforce, I had a job developing cushioning systems for a major sports footwear company. We had legions of bio-mechanists, sports med people, etc working with consumers to define the "best" cushioning. Short version is it varied greatly by person; what was "soft" and "better" for one was "mushy" and "bad" to another. I believe this carries to vehicle suspensions and what we each feel and notice. It's difficult to quantify, and I personally wind up prioritizing how often the suspension feels like it's contacting the bumpstops hard enough to feel (damage zone), and "how comfortable" the ride is, over time. It's about that desired usage you crave, and where you're willing to compromise.

I don't disagree with your statement about people being able to differentiate the AEV kit vs. pucks, but would add that includes the OEM ride, which some people think is OK. Also, I had the opportunity to drive my stock truck w/ just the 37's, and I didn't care for the ride and felt noticeable improvement (to me) once the AEV kit was installed. It may still have been mostly tire, but I think the Bilsteins and geometry changes played a factor, at least compared to the OEM base shocks.

To bring this back to the original focus of the thread (and my reptile-brain requires summation), it seems the AEV suspension kit could be defined:

• design focus is to replicate OEM ride, with 37" or larger tires (not softer)
• provides clean fender fitment of 37" tires by 3" front, 2" rear lift of the stock suspension and relocation of the front axle 1" forward
• emphasizes maintaining OEM suspension geometry for the lift by using more complex, bolt-on parts intensive methods than competitors
• uniquely modifies the steering geometry (high steer) in addition to the front and rear track bar pivot locations
• uses OEM springs and purpose-designed bolt-on spacers instead of longer / custom spring designs
• includes a new set of basic shocks matched to accommodate the lift and OEM springs
• (used to) includes electronics (ProCal) to enable mods to TPMS and tire size for the 37's

(not writing ad copy here, but just trying to expand "spacer lift")

My personal experience living with my AEV kit over 20k mi so far has been positive. During my last trip I ran the truck and trailer over scales multiple times, and got a "wake-up" call, finding that I had more static load in the truck than I realized; I was over the 10K GVW when towing by 6% , and was too close to the rear axle max for my comfort. I quickly adjusted, but it impressed (and somewhat frightened) me that the truck never felt overwhelmed, or seemed uncomfortable. I also dragged the trailer over / through some areas we probably had no right being in, without damage or drama. As Limpskie already mentioned, we've logged over 10K mi w/trailer on/off road and probably 3.5K mi truck-only on long trips in the last 10 mo, and the ride w/37's is very comfortable. My ultimate feedback is when my Wife actually said the ride was "very good"! This was after previously threatening my life and forcing me to add more entry steps when she saw what I'd done to the truck with the tires and lift...

I'll concede the AEV kit doesn't provide the soft unloaded ride that other vendors focus on, nor maximum extreme off-road articulation. I don't think the AEV suffers severely off-road, and ultimately is more capable than I'm willing to push a truck this big. I'd rather spend future money on locking diffs, and maybe consider shocks/springs. It still comes back to intentions and compromises, YMMV. Besides, if it did we'd only need one vehicle and what fun would that be?

Shoot, I am an AEV fanboy. I’ll slap just about anything they make on my truck. I even bought a T shirt. However, this particular product doesn’t tickle my pickle.

 

[Crusty old shellback]

I think going with a larger than stock size tire set at the correct pressure for the actual weight of the truck will make a big difference on the smaller bumps/dips/road imperfections than any suspension change. I'm running 35" BFGs on 17" rims set at 45/37 PSI hot. Small bump compliance seems to be improved over the factory 33's with 65 PSI in them.

Even in the videos I've watched from CJC and Filthy say the same things. the tires are more "compliant" and dampen the smaller stuff quicker than the shocks can react.

So the shock/spacer/spring package we are seeking should be focused more on the "other" issues than the small stuff that the new larger tires will take care of.

 

[2manyprojects]

I think going with a larger than stock size tire set at the correct pressure for the actual weight of the truck will make a big difference on the smaller bumps/dips/road imperfections than any suspension change. I'm running 35" BFGs on 17" rims set at 45/37 PSI hot. Small bump compliance seems to be improved over the factory 33's with 65 PSI in them.

Even in the videos I've watched from CJC and Filthy say the same things. the tires are more "compliant" and dampen the smaller stuff quicker than the shocks can react.

So the shock/spacer/spring package we are seeking should be focused more on the "other" issues than the small stuff that the new larger tires will take care of.

Amen! Try going from 245/70/17s @ 80psi training wheels my truck came with, to 37/12.50/17's @ 46/48 psi ...

 

[2manyprojects]

Shoot, I am an AEV fanboy. I’ll slap just about anything they make on my truck. I even bought a T shirt. However, this particular product doesn’t tickle my pickle.

That's fair, it took me quite a bit of time to warm up to it. I may be the only person on earth that isn't smitten with AEVs front and rear bumpers.

 

[Crusty old shellback]

That's fair, it took me quite a bit of time to warm up to it. I may be the only person on earth that isn't smitten with AEVs front and rear bumpers.

Nope, you are not the only one.
Not a fan of their style.
Then again, I'm not a big fan of the new squared off angled everywhere bumper style that everyone likes to run either.
I'm kind of digging on my factory smooth, slightly rounded, black powder coat bumper.

 

[UglyViking]

Missed some good conversation here. I appreciate the fact that no one has yet resorted to name calling, which is refreshing for a truck forum of all places.

I'll be honest, I'm still struggling to understand the real benefit of the AEV kit beyond the goal of getting it up higher. Again, a lot of stock suspension power wagon guys are stuffing 37s with no/super-minor-trimming, and the non PW guys are running 2-2.5" front levels with again no/super-minor-trimming. If the goal is to simply clear 37s while flexed, I don't think the AEV kit does anything special. I don't see the need for moving the axle forward 1", which isn't to say it hurts anything, just that it seems unnecessary from the practical use I see in the wild.

The high steer kit I'll admit I'm less certain about. In my jeep days the general consensus seemed to be that if you're over 4" of lift you really should be doing a high steer kit or you're going to have bump steer issues. I'm not sure if that's guidance for the jeep world alone, if it was for the specific generation of jeep or what, but considering AEV is the only company offering the high steer kit for the ram HD world, at least in terms of "off road" suspensions, I'm thinking it's more for the sake of ticking some OEM box than anything else.

I would be kind of interested to measure the angle difference between the stock, AEV and Carli/Thuren drag link, to see what the differences are with the high steer kit vs not. Maybe if it's enough someone could convince AEV to sell that knuckle alone and you could DIY it?

On the note of flex difference between a 5th gen ram and 3rd gen, well carli or not I don't know that it's remotely close to a fair comparison. I'd be much more interested in a same gen comparison between the bunch. 3rd gens have short arm 4 links up front, and coilovers. Plus the swaybar connected vs no bar is sort of an unfair comparison. That said, perhaps that mod alone is enough to make the AEV setup comparable. I'll be honest though, I wouldn't want to run my truck as a daily without a sway bar, a bit too loose around the corners for my taste.

Who here has a bone stock 5th gen and lives in NH and wants to have a test? (joking, unless someone is available…)

 

[Crusty old shellback]

I think high steer is an advantage no matter what.
Square body Chevys have a bunch of aftermarket high steer options. Maybe the HD Ram group just havent ventured down that road yet as they dont perceive the HD Rams doing the same thing as the jeep and square body guys.

 

[2manyprojects]

Missed some good conversation here. I appreciate the fact that no one has yet resorted to name calling, which is refreshing for a truck forum of all places.

I'll be honest, I'm still struggling to understand the real benefit of the AEV kit beyond the goal of getting it up higher. Again, a lot of stock suspension power wagon guys are stuffing 37s with no/super-minor-trimming, and the non PW guys are running 2-2.5" front levels with again no/super-minor-trimming. If the goal is to simply clear 37s while flexed, I don't think the AEV kit does anything special. I don't see the need for moving the axle forward 1", which isn't to say it hurts anything, just that it seems unnecessary from the practical use I see in the wild.

The high steer kit I'll admit I'm less certain about. In my jeep days the general consensus seemed to be that if you're over 4" of lift you really should be doing a high steer kit or you're going to have bump steer issues. I'm not sure if that's guidance for the jeep world alone, if it was for the specific generation of jeep or what, but considering AEV is the only company offering the high steer kit for the ram HD world, at least in terms of "off road" suspensions, I'm thinking it's more for the sake of ticking some OEM box than anything else.

I would be kind of interested to measure the angle difference between the stock, AEV and Carli/Thuren drag link, to see what the differences are with the high steer kit vs not. Maybe if it's enough someone could convince AEV to sell that knuckle alone and you could DIY it?

On the note of flex difference between a 5th gen ram and 3rd gen, well carli or not I don't know that it's remotely close to a fair comparison. I'd be much more interested in a same gen comparison between the bunch. 3rd gens have short arm 4 links up front, and coilovers. Plus the swaybar connected vs no bar is sort of an unfair comparison. That said, perhaps that mod alone is enough to make the AEV setup comparable. I'll be honest though, I wouldn't want to run my truck as a daily without a sway bar, a bit too loose around the corners for my taste.

Who here has a bone stock 5th gen and lives in NH and wants to have a test? (joking, unless someone is available…)

I think the "benefit" of the AEV kit is providing a more comprehensive (but complicated) correction to all the geometry issues that come with lifting 3". Thuren/ Carli both acknowledge when the front is lifted beyond 2.75", you lose the ability to maintain front axle geometry forcing the relocation of the pivot points. Similar issues w/track bar front/rear and draglink with the angles and keeping the front axle centered. AEV emphasizes correcting all this back to optimum OEM, whereas the others either limit the amount of lift to minimize the issues, or correct the most critical geometry while emphasizing the spring rates and shock tuning for the soft ride. AEV doesn't really market their lift as an improvement in ride over stock, more that you can fit 37's or 40's and maintain complete OEM street performance w/the added ground clearance the tires provide for off road. I suspect the AEV kit was created around making 40's work, and adapted for 37's after realizing not everyone wants big fender cuts and flares (and additional $$$ to be made).

I'm not saying Thuren/Carli neglect crucial geometry issues, but put their focus on creating spring and shock systems which soften the ride for lightly/non-loaded trucks. Compromise a little bumpsteer for the softer ride? Most of us don't notice until it's really excessive... I haven't driven all these systems, so I'm just speculating here, but I know I've accepted more body roll and steering quirks on the street with my Land Cruisers, knowing it was worth it when I got to the trail.

There's no need to lift at all to fit 37's, if you're willing to trim more sheetmetal. I suspect if you're designing a commercial suspension kit to accommodate every variant of 37" tire without any requirement to modify bodywork, you lift 3" and move the axle forward 1". Especially if you're looking to sell through the OEM dealer network...