AEV suspension discussion thread

[Crusty old shellback]

Ramblinchet,
Thanks for that post. I havent looked into their system but have a better understanding now of what they have done.

So instead of developing a bunch of different springs for different applications, they chose to keep the factory springs and go a more economical solution with a spacer that fits all needs. Good business decision to meet the needs of the masses.
They did a high lift crossover steering to keep the factory geometry. Good move. And as a bonus by doing that, less chance of damaging the steering system when off roading.
It also looks like they took the high road by moving the axle forward to clear bigger tires, rather than larger offset to clear.
Leaf springs have a similar system called easy inch to move the axle. Increases the wheelbase a little which is also good.

So it looks like they have tried to develop a system that's more of a one size fits all rather than a specific system for each truck configuration/ usage, which is more what Carli/Thuren have done.
For me, it seems that the more I drive and use my Power Wagon, the happier I am with the stock suspension. Maybe a shock upgrade and track bar upgrade is in my future. But I cant see spending much more for a full suspension at this time for they way I use my truck. Maybe after more time in Baja or out at King of the Hammers, I might change my mind.

 

[Brutal_HO]

I also think this is a perfect opportunity to share this informative video where Dave does a great job explaining details associated with the AEV suspension upgrade:

If you like your springs, you can keep your springs.

IOW, it's believed there are MANY spring part numbers for these trucks depending on configuration. The factory tuned them for the best payload and ride, perhaps some consider that a compromise, but factory tuned nonetheless.

Carli/Thuren have great systems but are not, IMHO, geared towards the overland segment looking to maintain their payload.

 

[UglyViking]

I agree that different suspension systems optimize for different use cases much in the same way that the power wagon is optimized for something different than the 3500 max tow. Just for sake of discussion here are probably the two main points I'm struggling to understand.

Coil spring swap on Jeeps and not on Ram HD
So AEV claims a huge number of coil spring part numbers on the Ram HD platform is the reason they didn't do a simple gas/diesel coil set. But surely the number of coil springs is at least similar on the Jeep platform. I've got no doubt that the number of spring configurations on the Ram HD is higher, if for no other reason than the additional cab variation and things like snow plow prep. That said, surely the rubicon springs are different than the sahara springs right? And the max tow springs are likely different than the rubicon, and the 2 door springs are different than the 4 door, and the different engine configurations are different, etc.

I am guessing the primary difference may have been to reduce the number of packages for the Ram HD platform, knowing full well that the Jeep options will vastly outsell the Ram is probably part of it (they can offer a single base kit for the Ram HD trucks, plus/minus the rear with an add on kit to run 40s). This makes a ton of sense from a part number and business perspective but I don't see the practical utility for the end user. Why not run a similar system for Jeeps if this is the case?

Changes in axle position to clear 37s
This is one thing I don't quite understand. There have been multiple who have shown that with the proper offset wheel you can easily clear. Who is running the AEV suspension to clear 37s with stock wheels? Even if you wanted to the AEV kit wouldn't allow full range of steering as they don't replace the sway bar or radius arms with high clearance options, so you're still limited by the ability to clear wider than stock tires.

Even AEVs website claims that there are backspacing requirements to clear 37s (emphasis mine): "For the best fitment, AEV recommends using a 37x12.50R17 tire with a 17x8.5 wheel w/ approx. 5.8” back spacing." Considering the factory backspacing is 43-57mm of positive offset (according to wheel-size.com). So the back spacing for the factory wheels is roughly 6", 6.25", and 6.75" respectively (rounded to nearest quarter inch). So even the AEV kit isn't going to allow the factory wheels without some (possibly minor) amount of rub in the best case.

So, what does all this matter? Well again, to my primary point if the goal of the AEV suspension is to maintain factory payload numbers, keep the factory springs and gain ability to run 37s wouldn't that be better served with keeping the factory suspension and running the proper offset wheel? Surely a factory suspension thats 2-3" lower will handle better than the inverse, even when AEV has done everything possible to maintain that factory geometry. Perhaps AEV thought they needed to offer some lift option beyond a spacer to "level" the truck and add some height for looks alone. Maybe they explored the option of simply using a spacer and decided it wasn't going to be marketed well, or perhaps just thought the extra engineering was worth it.

As a comparison. What makes the AEV dualsport suspension better than a full Carli 2.5" level where you maintain the factory rear coils but improve the ride softness in the front?

 

[Crusty old shellback]

As I stated above, they probably did the spacer for economical business reasons. And as you stated, the jeep world is probably more inclined to purchase a suspension kit than some guy with a HD that wants to tow.

The PW rims are only a 45 MM offset. 17x8 rim. So they already stick out more than a regular HD rim. Probably why they have the big fender flares for the reasons I stated above. And I can run 37's with minor trimming on the stock suspension and rims. But the PW has about a 2" lift from the factory.

 

[Crusty old shellback]

I thought we were talking about coil springs. leaf springs will limit down travel. coil springs just fall out if your extended shock length is too long.

Sedona,
Maybe this will help explain a little better what I was trying to convey.

In the case of the leaf springs I mentioned.

The stock front spring is a 2 leaf thick spring. It provides enough strength to hold up the weight of the truck and work for basic stuff. If you got the snow plow option, you got a 3 leaf set up.

The Deaver front spring that replaces it is a 12 leaf spring. The leaf's are thinner and of varying lengths. They still hold the same weight as the stock spring. But they have a different arch to lift the truck. And with the multiple leaf pack, they are softer, provide more flex and more suspension travel than the OEM springs. They are a progressive rate spring, different from the OEM spring.

Coil springs do the same thing. You can make a linear spring or a progressive spring. Since it is a coil and not a leaf so you can't stack them in the same manner, they do this by the diameter of the wire, number of coils and the way the coils are wound. A linear spring , which is most OEM springs, will have the coils evenly spaced and a certain number of coils per inch.
A aftermarket spring will have coils spaced differently with more coils per inch in some areas and less in others. This gives it their progressive rate.

One other thing they can do, like on the coil over shocks on my quad, is use multiple springs in a stack. You will have, in my case, 3 different springs with different rates and progressions. They are all in a stack with a spacer between each spring. The width of that spacer, determines when the first spring stops being used and the second one starts being used. And so on till the 3rd spring comes into play. The whole stack is used to set the ride height by adjusting the collar on the spring pack that sets the preload.

It may be a little hard to understand but if you see one and take a good look at it, it becomes evident how it works.

Hope that helps explain what I was trying to convey.

 

[tchur1]

As a comparison. What makes the AEV dualsport suspension better than a full Carli 2.5" level where you maintain the factory rear coils but improve the ride softness in the front?

This has always been my biggest question around AEV vs Carli/Thurem. It seems like with their ssytems you can have you cake and eat it to, improve ride with better coils and shocks up front, maintain full factory leave/coil capacity out back and improve control with better shocks there. I cant see where AEV has an advantage there.

This brings up something else that I have been thinking about, and if this derails the thread my apologies, I will move to a new thread. What advantage does Carli have over Thuren? From everything I can come up with Thuren has a better product and is less expensive. With Thuren front coils you dont need radius arm drop brackets, you can get king shocks with both platforms but with Thuren you get more precise tuning. Their swaybar is less expensive and from all accounts is just as effective as Carli... what am I missing with the Carli systems?

 

[UglyViking]

This has always been my biggest question around AEV vs Carli/Thurem. It seems like with their ssytems you can have you cake and eat it to, improve ride with better coils and shocks up front, maintain full factory leave/coil capacity out back and improve control with better shocks there. I cant see where AEV has an advantage there.

This brings up something else that I have been thinking about, and if this derails the thread my apologies, I will move to a new thread. What advantage does Carli have over Thuren? From everything I can come up with Thuren has a better product and is less expensive. With Thuren front coils you dont need radius arm drop brackets, you can get king shocks with both platforms but with Thuren you get more precise tuning. Their swaybar is less expensive and from all accounts is just as effective as Carli... what am I missing with the Carli systems?

Addressing the Carli vs Thuren question. I don't know that I'd consider Thuren's tuning more "percise", rather you just get more options in the event you want a firmer or softer ride. Arguably Carli already did that by providing different options for their shocks (eg. their commuter system lift will ride different than their backcountry, and so on). I'd call up Carli and discuss the different shock options to find out which are more tuned for on vs off road performance, I can't recall the specific details but it's something like the backcountry is more optimized for offroad and isn't as good on the street vs the commuter, but the pintop is better in both regards, again they will give you more info there.

In terms of why Carli requires radius arm drops vs Thuren which doesn't, it really just comes down to the lift height, and when you need to start addressing that angle. Thuren offers a max 2.75" up front, where as Carlis lift system is 3.25", that 0.5" doesn't sound like a lot but it's the barrier for when you need to address the angle of the radius arms. For example, Carli's 2.5" level doesn't require drops.

Both companies have similar but different approaches to suspension. Thuren allows you to completely customize the aspects from front to rear, where Carli chooses packages and gives you optional add ons.

Thuren overall seems to be a bit cheaper, part of that may be marketing budget, R&D expense, company size, etc. Their cost is pretty close once you compare apples to apples, while Thuren will generally come a little cheaper.

I ended up with Thuren because I liked the customization I could get with their setup, but at the end of the day I think I would be just as happy with Carli. I do often look at the Carli Dominator system and think about changing things up, but I'm not sure if I'm willing to shell out the additional cost to completely change over, and Thuren has been awesome in terms of support.

A lot of guys will also mix and match parts. Guys may go with Carli shocks and springs but Thuren sway and rear track bar, etc. Just depends on what is best for your overall needs.

 

[tchur1]

Addressing the Carli vs Thuren question. I don't know that I'd consider Thuren's tuning more "percise", rather you just get more options in the event you want a firmer or softer ride. Arguably Carli already did that by providing different options for their shocks (eg. their commuter system lift will ride different than their backcountry, and so on). I'd call up Carli and discuss the different shock options to find out which are more tuned for on vs off road performance, I can't recall the specific details but it's something like the backcountry is more optimized for offroad and isn't as good on the street vs the commuter, but the pintop is better in both regards, again they will give you more info there.

In terms of why Carli requires radius arm drops vs Thuren which doesn't, it really just comes down to the lift height, and when you need to start addressing that angle. Thuren offers a max 2.75" up front, where as Carlis lift system is 3.25", that 0.5" doesn't sound like a lot but it's the barrier for when you need to address the angle of the radius arms. For example, Carli's 2.5" level doesn't require drops.

Both companies have similar but different approaches to suspension. Thuren allows you to completely customize the aspects from front to rear, where Carli chooses packages and gives you optional add ons.

Thuren overall seems to be a bit cheaper, part of that may be marketing budget, R&D expense, company size, etc. Their cost is pretty close once you compare apples to apples, while Thuren will generally come a little cheaper.

I ended up with Thuren because I liked the customization I could get with their setup, but at the end of the day I think I would be just as happy with Carli. I do often look at the Carli Dominator system and think about changing things up, but I'm not sure if I'm willing to shell out the additional cost to completely change over, and Thuren has been awesome in terms of support.

A lot of guys will also mix and match parts. Guys may go with Carli shocks and springs but Thuren sway and rear track bar, etc. Just depends on what is best for your overall needs.

You're correct with the more customization that comes with Thuren and worded it much better than I did. It seems that they will perform very similarly, I guess personally I like the ability to get King 2.5s but tune them for more on road specific use cases whereas the carline pintop 2.5 level isn't going to have the same level of customization from my understanding. For that use case with Carli is seems like you need to go with a lesser shock to get that type of tuning. Unless I am understanding their systems incorrectly (entirely possible)

Do most people run the radius arm drops with the carli system on the 2.5 pintop level? On their website, they recommend but they are also a business trying to sell their product so idk how often they are actually used.

 

[Rockcrawlindude]

I just can’t get past the visual aspect of the AEV lift. Not the trucks themselves, they look amazing. The installed lift itself.

if you crawl under and look at the axle it has so many brackets and crap bolted to it. It’s extremely cluttered and looks awful. Drop brackets and relocation brackets everywhere. Not to mention doing a nut/bolt check would be a nightmare.

If I’m going to lift my truck, Give me taller coils and a new trackbar and let me have a clutter free straight axle setup.

 

[Crusty old shellback]

I guess personally I like the ability to get King 2.5s but tune them for more on road specific use cases whereas the carline pintop 2.5 level isn't going to have the same level of customization from my understanding. For that use case with Carli is seems like you need to go with a lesser shock to get that type of tuning.

Shock tuning is the same between the big shocks that are tuneable by the different manufactures.

They all use a similar piston with bleed holes drilled into it. The tuning comes from the shim stacks that are used. It's basically like building/tuning leaf springs like Deavers. they use different thickness shims in different diameters. Then they will use small "spacers" between some of the shims to further tune when the shock goes hard or soft. Once they have that dialed in to their liking, they can use the pressure in the reservoir to fine tune the shock.

I'm not really sure why they call it a reservoir. It actually acts a a expansion chamber for when the oil gets hot and expands. There is a piston inside the "reservoir. It separates the oil on the shock side from Nitrogen on the other side. When the shocks are built, all of the oil is in the shock, The "reservoir" is then charged with nitrogen to around 250 to 300 PSI. This keeps the oil inside the shock as the piston travels inside the body. The pressure forces the oil thru the bleed holes and the shims control the speed the piston moves thru the oil. As the oil heats up and expands, it will go into the "reservoir" and push the piston up into the "reservoir" and compress the nitrogen even more. They will adjust the initial nitrogen pressure on the "reservoir" to find tune the ride once they have the right combinations on the shim stack. There is a shim stack on each side of the piston. One is for compression, the other side for rebound..

There are a lot of shock tuners out there. It's basically subjective has to what the tuner likes, or the customer if they are there with the tuner actually driving the truck and making changes.

I'm not a shock tuner, but I did rebuild the King shocks on my K5. Found out that basically the oil is the same in all the shocks. ICON buys their shock oil from King, then adds a red dye to it and puts their label on it. When I rebuilt my shocks, I did change the "flutter" stack, i.e the spacer, to make them a bit softer on the initial hit of the small bumps. It worked for me.

 

[tchur1]

Shock tuning is the same between the big shocks that are tuneable by the different manufactures.

They all use a similar piston with bleed holes drilled into it. The tuning comes from the shim stacks that are used. It's basically like building/tuning leaf springs like Deavers. they use different thickness shims in different diameters. Then they will use small "spacers" between some of the shims to further tune when the shock goes hard or soft. Once they have that dialed in to their liking, they can use the pressure in the reservoir to fine tune the shock.

I'm not really sure why they call it a reservoir. It actually acts a a expansion chamber for when the oil gets hot and expands. There is a piston inside the "reservoir. It separates the oil on the shock side from Nitrogen on the other side. When the shocks are built, all of the oil is in the shock, The "reservoir" is then charged with nitrogen to around 250 to 300 PSI. This keeps the oil inside the shock as the piston travels inside the body. The pressure forces the oil thru the bleed holes and the shims control the speed the piston moves thru the oil. As the oil heats up and expands, it will go into the "reservoir" and push the piston up into the "reservoir" and compress the nitrogen even more. They will adjust the initial nitrogen pressure on the "reservoir" to find tune the ride once they have the right combinations on the shim stack. There is a shim stack on each side of the piston. One is for compression, the other side for rebound..

There are a lot of shock tuners out there. It's basically subjective has to what the tuner likes, or the customer if they are there with the tuner actually driving the truck and making changes.

I'm not a shock tuner, but I did rebuild the King shocks on my K5. Found out that basically the oil is the same in all the shocks. ICON buys their shock oil from King, then adds a red dye to it and puts their label on it. When I rebuilt my shocks, I did change the "flutter" stack, i.e the spacer, to make them a bit softer on the initial hit of the small bumps. It worked for me.

Appreciate the response and breaking everything down. Apologies for derailing the thread a bit here. Back to the AEV convo.

 

[UglyViking]

You're correct with the more customization that comes with Thuren and worded it much better than I did. It seems that they will perform very similarly, I guess personally I like the ability to get King 2.5s but tune them for more on road specific use cases whereas the carline pintop 2.5 level isn't going to have the same level of customization from my understanding. For that use case with Carli is seems like you need to go with a lesser shock to get that type of tuning. Unless I am understanding their systems incorrectly (entirely possible)

Do most people run the radius arm drops with the carli system on the 2.5 pintop level? On their website, they recommend but they are also a business trying to sell their product so idk how often they are actually used.

I don't know that I'd say Carli recommends them, unless you're seeing something I'm not. Here is a quote from them on their 2.5" level suspension page "The 2.5” lift height doesn’t require the front or rear geometry correction of our 3” Systems.". Geometry correction being the radius arm drops.

I just can’t get past the visual aspect of the AEV lift. Not the trucks themselves, they look amazing. The installed lift itself.

if you crawl under and look at the axle it has so many brackets and crap bolted to it. It’s extremely cluttered and looks awful. Drop brackets and relocation brackets everywhere. Not to mention doing a nut/bolt check would be a nightmare.

If I’m going to lift my truck, Give me taller coils and a new trackbar and let me have a clutter free straight axle setup.

Not gonna lie I felt the same. The most interesting piece to me was their radius arm drop, it's two pieces. I get that they have it a two piece so they can change the shims for the 37-40" tire "conversion", but man do I find that sketchy. Then there is the sheer number of bolts as you mentioned.

At least AEV is now including a knuckle with their kit designed to work with their drag link. In their first iteration you had to drill out your own knuckle and there was a handful of failures in which I assume is primarily due to incorrect instillation, so I think AEV went above and beyond by covering those who had an issue. Again, nothing against the company just seem to be missing the point of this suspension system.

 

[tchur1]

I don't know that I'd say Carli recommends them, unless you're seeing something I'm not. Here is a quote from them on their 2.5" level suspension page "The 2.5” lift height doesn’t require the front or rear geometry correction of our 3” Systems.". Geometry correction being the radius arm drops.


Not gonna lie I felt the same. The most interesting piece to me was their radius arm drop, it's two pieces. I get that they have it a two piece so they can change the shims for the 37-40" tire "conversion", but man do I find that sketchy. Then there is the sheer number of bolts as you mentioned.

At least AEV is now including a knuckle with their kit designed to work with their drag link. In their first iteration you had to drill out your own knuckle and there was a handful of failures in which I assume is primarily due to incorrect instillation, so I think AEV went above and beyond by covering those who had an issue. Again, nothing against the company just seem to be missing the point of this suspension system.

I may be conflating my conversation with CJC and what Carli has on their website.

I agree with the last part of your statement, that I dont understand the point of this system. If I wanted to maintain payload but lift and improve ride/capability I would just go Carli/Thuren front springs and new shocks on all 4 corners. Feels like a more simplified system that achieves the same purpose.

 

[Crusty old shellback]

Appreciate the response and breaking everything down. Apologies for derailing the thread a bit here. Back to the AEV convo.

Not sure I'd say you derailed it. Just adding more info to the conversations so that we all can learn. And I think it is relevant to the conversation.

 

[Crusty old shellback]

Here's a conversation I had when looking at the Carli suspension.

"I began asking Carli about shocks for my truck to give me a better ride. I am not found of lifting the truck any more as it's already high enough for me.

Carli responded back with the following info, and also put me in touch with CJC Offroad. It seems they are one of their main suppliers and probably do some testing for them.

"We offer both King and Fox shock options but none to suit the factory PW springs – all our custom valving is done to our spring rates. On yours, you can expect 2” of front lift and 1” rear lift with our lift. I know you stated you’d prefer not to lift it but, I outline the lift heights to show you they’re negligible enough to be considered."

I then received an Email from CJC and started a conversation with them. I'm passing this info on to maybe help some of you who are thinking of going this route.

"You're welcome to order just shocks, but from our experience it really doesn't alter the ride quality as much as most customers hope for, which is why we prefer the Carli systems that replace the springs/shocks together. Here's a video of our shop Power Wagon on a Carli system and 37s so you can get an idea of what that looks like and rides like.

Again, you're welcome to do shocks alone, but we have a feeling you'll feel let down after the money spent!"

My response and question:

Yea, I'm a member on the HDRam site and have see several of the guys are running the Carli setup and like it. My issue is the lift height as I use my truck. It's already fairly high from the factory, so trying not to go that route.
My other truck, 04 Chevy sits on 37s and 9" of lift and is basically unusable. Need a ladder to get into the bed.
On my PW, I did order the bed step which helps a lot climbing into the truck.
I'll have to do some serious thinking on it.
One question i do have about the suspensions is why does the lower level of the suspension have more front travel than the higher level when they both use the same spring, just different shocks?

CJC response:

We fully understand bed access and all salesmanship aside, we just want you to be happy with the setup. We truly think you'll be happier with the dedicated system as opposed to just doing shocks. That way you're also improving travel, articulation, and actually adding a little rear payload capacity in the process. The added lift is just to improve up travel and separate the axle/frame.

The variance in travel has to do with the size of the shock end caps and the shocks themselves. The King options have a slightly larger end cap/body, so you lose a hair of travel over the Fox systems. It isn't something that's really noticeable in the cab though as the added damping and control you get from the King packages more than make up for a few mm travel loss!

My response and more questions:

Hi again. So I watched your video again. Seen it in the past.
The Carli suspension you say as more flex in it than stock. Have you ran it on a RTI ramp and compared the numbers to the stock suspension? Just curious.


CJC response:

We have not run it on an RTI ramp unfortunately but we intend to

My response and questions:

Do you know if you can run 37s on the stock rims with the Carli setup and not rub when compressed and turned?

CJC response:

Sadly no. They're too tucked in, so you get rub on the radius arms and sway bar at full steering lock. To fit 37s on a Ram truck we recommend a +18 to +27 offset wheel that is no wider than 9,” as well as some mild trimming of the plastic fender liner and maybe pinch weld depending on the tire.

and a followup about the same issue

+18 to +25 tends to provide the best compromise between just clearing the body but also clearing the suspension with little to no plastic trimming being required."

There is more info in this thread I had started about a Carli suspension.

Carli suspension info

So after reading a lot of threads about articulink, Carli and Thuren suspension components and alignments, I decided to reach out to Carli for some info. Base. '21 75th AE PW. 35" BFG KO2. 45/40 PSI. Aligned to Thuren specs. I began asking Carli about shocks for my truck to give me a better...

hdrams.com

 

[Trail_Wagon]

Sedona,
Maybe this will help explain a little better what I was trying to convey.

In the case of the leaf springs I mentioned.

The stock front spring is a 2 leaf thick spring. It provides enough strength to hold up the weight of the truck and work for basic stuff. If you got the snow plow option, you got a 3 leaf set up.

The Deaver front spring that replaces it is a 12 leaf spring. The leaf's are thinner and of varying lengths. They still hold the same weight as the stock spring. But they have a different arch to lift the truck. And with the multiple leaf pack, they are softer, provide more flex and more suspension travel than the OEM springs. They are a progressive rate spring, different from the OEM spring.

Coil springs do the same thing. You can make a linear spring or a progressive spring. Since it is a coil and not a leaf so you can't stack them in the same manner, they do this by the diameter of the wire, number of coils and the way the coils are wound. A linear spring , which is most OEM springs, will have the coils evenly spaced and a certain number of coils per inch.
A aftermarket spring will have coils spaced differently with more coils per inch in some areas and less in others. This gives it their progressive rate.

One other thing they can do, like on the coil over shocks on my quad, is use multiple springs in a stack. You will have, in my case, 3 different springs with different rates and progressions. They are all in a stack with a spacer between each spring. The width of that spacer, determines when the first spring stops being used and the second one starts being used. And so on till the 3rd spring comes into play. The whole stack is used to set the ride height by adjusting the collar on the spring pack that sets the preload.

It may be a little hard to understand but if you see one and take a good look at it, it becomes evident how it works.

Hope that helps explain what I was trying to convey.

Thank you for clearing this up.

 

[Rockcrawlindude]

Say what you want but a track bar relocation bracket isn’t “doing it the right way” in my book.

They’ve just reinvented the body lift. They have put spacers and relocation brackets everywhere possible with the sole purpose of retaining factory payload ratings with the OEM.

They did what they could with what they had to work with and stay within certain constraints

 

[UglyViking]

Your bring up a good point when asking why AEV springs for Jeeps but not for RAMs. We can speculate although it would be very interesting to hear AEV answer that question. Another consideration would be the weight of the vehicle being lifted and the impact of additional weight from accessories. A quick search reveals most JLs range in weight from 4,000-4,500 pounds while porky RAMs are 6,000-7,500 pounds. Adding 500 pounds of gear (winch, front and rear bumpers, etc.) to a Jeep seems like it would really burden the existing coils which are soft to begin with. Maybe the average lifted Jeep requires new springs. Adding 500 pounds to a RAM is nothing - most RAMs can carry the weight of a Jeep in the bed while some can even carry the weight of another RAM and then some. It would be interesting to hear AEV provide additional details although my guess is that the decision was based more on requirements versus economics. AEV's foundation is base on providing the absolute best suspension system without cutting corners due to cost.

Regarding moving the axle to clear 37s - it seems most people who try to run 37s without the AEV system and rims are required to trim fender flares, smash or cut pinch welds, run the wheels on the control arms, etc. I do not believe the AEV suspension system was ever designed to be used with stock wheels and larger tires since scrub radius and other critical values would not be ideal. In closing you mention the Carli 2.5" level which I am not familiar with but mixing and matching springs does not equal a frequency balanced system. If you are interested in learning more on that subject there are many good books on suspension engineering that can explain much better and in far greater detail than what I can in this thread. It's a book, lol. Again, I am not here to knock other companies but I purchase AEV not because they were AEV., I purchased AEV because they offered a system that no one else could even begin to offer.



Reference my last three sentences above.

Yeah, perhaps AEV is simply trying to keep the payload numbers on the RAM where as the Jeeps they are trying to raise them. That said, your comment about not wanting to trim fender flares or cut pinch welds is pretty funny considering this is the same company that asks you to hack basically to the firewall to install their highmark flares. I just don't see those two things being very equal. If AEV is willing to absolutely butcher all fenders to get those flares to fit 40s, then surely trimming 1/4" off a pinch weld isn't a big deal?

I will admit that I'm not super familiar with frequency balancing, so perhaps I'm missing something, but I thought it was mainly track and other "time attack" sports car guys who were interested in that. I don't really see frequency balancing being a big deal in the off road truck market, and if it is then surely not in any of the trucks that the AEV suspension would be under.

I just want to call attention to the above emphasized quote. I could not disagree with this statement more. Absolute best for what? Not for off road speed for certain, the springs and shocks alone are not up to the task. If for payload then I'd argue they are no better than stock or a 2" level in that they increase the roll center even more all around and offer absolutely 0 added benefit in travel. Absolute best in giving you 3" of overall lift while maintaining factory coils? Sure if that's your jam.

My focus has always been on maintaining or improving handling while providing additional clearance and larger tires. If you begin to compare how AEV solves front steering linkage issues and then you compare to others who don't even address the same issues...it's case closed. The AEV system properly returns the track bar and drag link to optimum angles. I am not sure what more to say but AEVs solution to the front steering linkage issue is easily an order or magnitude beyond anything else.

If you ever do decide to take some time and read Chassis Handbook by Bernd Heißing (579 pages) or Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics, Revised Edition by Dr. Thomas Gillespie (512 pages) you will feel robbed at what you have been sold by other companies. Seriously, they provide you with something that "looks" nice that negatively impacts then handling of your vehicle. Again, I did not purchase an AEV suspension system because it was manufacture by AEV. I purchased their system because it is by far, the finest available for the RAM. I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to AEV versus Carli versus Thuren, etc. I'm like a pretty girl, I wait at the finish line and date the winner.

Just on these two topics. I'm not attempting to "be fresh" here but have you read both books, and if so have you put that into practical use? I feel that you've mentioned a few times about how complex these topics are, and granted I'm sure they are more than a knuckle dragger like myself can easily grasp, but I've always heard the saying "if you can't explain it simply, you don't know it well".

I find it a bit tricky to grasp that something like the factory what 18° drag link angle is perfect but a 19° angle is far too extreme. I mean we are really talking about a potential for a bit of bump steer here right? Yes, it's better if it's not there at all, but I'd argue that you're gonna get a lot more "bump steer" from 12.5-13.5 wide tires then you will from that minor change in angle.

Honestly, I'm really just hoping I'm missing something here, and there is some secret or piece of data or engineering design feat I'm not seeing, because when I look at it, all I see is a bunch of brackets and cast parts trying to not be a spacer lift.

Also, I don't want to speak for you here but it seems beyond clear that you do indeed have a dog in the fight here, at least admit it to yourself if not us

P.S. (because I've been told I've got a tone that makes me come off as an *******) I hope it's clear that I'm simply trying to move forward the discussion and challenge the convo here a bit. I mean nothing personal or attacking, if for no other reason than I've really enjoyed your build and want to continue asking you questions about it

 

[Rockcrawlindude]

To the people who quote books written on suspensions that are hundreds of pages long I will say this:

I’ll take advice from somebody with years of field experience and no degree before I take advice from somebody with years of schooling and zero field experience.

I know from years and years of working with suspensions, installing, repairing them and breaking them that a track bar relocation bracket is not a good idea. They simply do not work long term. They might look ok on paper but they do not work.

The AEV track bar relocation situation WILL develop slop, need adjustment and become loose or worn and need constant re-tightening independent of normal track bar end bushing wear and tear. Over the years you will end up with a track bar that will not stay tight on the axle end and it will be troublesome.

 

[Trail_Wagon]

To the people who quote books written on suspensions that are hundreds of pages long I will say this:

I’ll take advice from somebody with years of field experience and no degree before I take advice from somebody with years of schooling and zero field experience.

I know from years and years of working with suspensions, installing, repairing them and breaking them that a track bar relocation bracket is not a good idea. They simply do not work long term. They might look ok on paper but they do not work.

The AEV track bar relocation situation WILL develop slop, need adjustment and become loose or worn and need constant re-tightening independent of normal track bar end bushing wear and tear. Over the years you will end up with a track bar that will not stay tight on the axle end and it will be troublesome.

I don't like bolt on brackets either. If I went this route, I would weld it on.