Towing with new 6.4L

[Redfour5]

Ahahahaha!-- I was with you until your last sentence where you got all your feelings in a bind.

The first 90% of your comments tied exactly with what you quoted me as saying -- Ill paraphrase -- The gas truck tows less, is less capable overall, and performs worse at altitude. What is so triggering about those facts? Im glad the gasser fits into your needs!

I guess I just get tired of all the diesel people feeling the NEED to justify their existence by coming to a gasser thread and criticizing people with 6.4's... What's that all about?

 

[chas0218]

For reference:
5.7 - 395 hp 410 lb.-ft.
6.4 - 410 hp 429 lb.-ft.

Have you driven and towed with a 6.4? My experience, driving and towing with both, doesn't quite feel like the numbers might indicate. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of the 5.7/8 speed drivetrain, was hugely impressed with it from every aspect. But my 6.4 feels very different towing, moves the load with less effort, less need to step down on the pedal, holds at highway speeds in 7th and 8th (around 8,000 lb trailer) with no problem. I know what the hp and torque numbers say, look pretty similar, but IMO they don't quite tell the story on the difference in capability.

I will say that seat of the pants feel doesn't feel the same either. I have driven my father's 5.7 with quad cab 6'4" box and my truck mega cab 6'4" weighing almost 2k lbs. more is much snappier and is all around faster. I think those numbers on the 6.4 are a little low to be honest.

EDIT: just googled some stock dyno numbers and it looks like to the wheels the truck is putting out around 320hp 340ft/lbs to the wheels. That's about a 20% drivetrain loss which would make sense with the auto trans, heavy diffs, and transfer case.

 

[Dave01]

I guess I just get tired of all the diesel people feeling the NEED to justify their existence by coming to a gasser thread and criticizing people with 6.4's... What's that all about?

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Gimmie11s seems to want to make his point, to the point of annoying some people. But then again his posts are good natured enough, I just think he views a 6.4 as a manufacturing error.

To your "What's that all about?" question - there is definitely something about diesel enthusiasts that can get overbearing at times. I'm one of them, though hopefully I don't get that way. Should be clear to anyone here that I love my 6.4, have had it for around 10 months now and still enjoy hopping in and driving it every single time, just very happy to have such a great vehicle. But ... I was talking to a friend about trucks last week, my last one was a 2007 LBZ Duramax CCSB. He was asking me about towing with my 6.4, kind of like the discussion in this thread. I said I was really happy with how it tows. He then asked how it compared to my Duramax ... I had to admit the 2007 diesel towed better than the 2021 6.4. The numbers make it obvious why, the old truck had 360 hp and 650 lb.-ft. with a 6 speed. The torque advantage is pretty huge, especially at lower rpm, and the Allison 6 speed is an excellent transmission.

All I'm saying is I can love my gas 6.4 but also know the plus's and minus's of diesels, older and newer. I chose gas for a bunch of reasons, and haven't regretted any of them.

 

[gimmie11s]

I tow a 8.5x20' enclosed trailer with 7' interior height. It weighs 3,700 lbs empty. I load it with ATVs sometimes, my compact tractor sometimes, rental machinery sometimes.

Granted, my current truck is a 1500 but it's only 15 HP/20 lb.ft. below the 6.4 and the truck weighs 1,000 lbs less (or more) than a 2500. So, power to weight ratio is better than the 2500.

Just in terms of pulling power, I can't imagine towing 10k or more with the gasser. This truck is not happy with more than 6k. It runs in 3rd and 4th gear a lot. All temps stay in check, but the constant high RPM screaming is mentally fatiguing on long trips.

As far as 3.73 vs 4.10, it's 150 RPM at highway speed. Totally undetectable. Maybe it's a tiny advantage at low speed accelerating but once up to speed it's not even detectable.

Dont say those things, you'll be labeled as a 6.4 hater.

I guess I just get tired of all the diesel people feeling the NEED to justify their existence by coming to a gasser thread and criticizing people with 6.4's... What's that all about?

I don't know how you got to those conclusions (comments about existence justification and criticisms?) by the facts ive stated regarding capability.

Like many (including me) have said, the 6.4 does just fine for MANY folks.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Gimmie11s seems to want to make his point, to the point of annoying some people. But then again his posts are good natured enough, I just think he views a 6.4 as a manufacturing error.

To your "What's that all about?" question - there is definitely something about diesel enthusiasts that can get overbearing at times. I'm one of them, though hopefully I don't get that way. Should be clear to anyone here that I love my 6.4, have had it for around 10 months now and still enjoy hopping in and driving it every single time, just very happy to have such a great vehicle. But ... I was talking to a friend about trucks last week, my last one was a 2007 LBZ Duramax CCSB. He was asking me about towing with my 6.4, kind of like the discussion in this thread. I said I was really happy with how it tows. He then asked how it compared to my Duramax ... I had to admit the 2007 diesel towed better than the 2021 6.4. The numbers make it obvious why, the old truck had 360 hp and 650 lb.-ft. with a 6 speed. The torque advantage is pretty huge, especially at lower rpm, and the Allison 6 speed is an excellent transmission.

All I'm saying is I can love my gas 6.4 but also know the plus's and minus's of diesels, older and newer. I chose gas for a bunch of reasons, and haven't regretted any of them.

Great post, agree on all accounts!

 

[Brad460]

I tow a 8.5x20' enclosed trailer with 7' interior height. It weighs 3,700 lbs empty. I load it with ATVs sometimes, my compact tractor sometimes, rental machinery sometimes.

Granted, my current truck is a 1500 but it's only 15 HP/20 lb.ft. below the 6.4 and the truck weighs 1,000 lbs less (or more) than a 2500. So, power to weight ratio is better than the 2500.

Just in terms of pulling power, I can't imagine towing 10k or more with the gasser. This truck is not happy with more than 6k. It runs in 3rd and 4th gear a lot. All temps stay in check, but the constant high RPM screaming is mentally fatiguing on long trips.

As far as 3.73 vs 4.10, it's 150 RPM at highway speed. Totally undetectable. Maybe it's a tiny advantage at low speed accelerating but once up to speed it's not even detectable.

The main thing I have noticed with my ‘22 2500 6.4 versus my ‘19 1500 5.7 is that - The 6.4 fuel economy is not effected nearly as much when towing as my 1500. For example, towing a simple two place snowmobile trailer would knock my 1500 down to ~10 mpg whereas the 6.4 was down to ~12 mpg.

Also, loading my truck bed with 2 MX bikes, gas, gear, toolbox, 55 gal water..etc plus towing a small trailer with 1 MX bike has zero effect on MPG- It’s the same MPG as when empty (upper 14’s).

I am excited to see how the 6.4 does pulling my 7k boat versus my 5.7. The 5.7 was often ~7 mpg.

The main reason I moved to the 2500 was due to a experience I had pulling a 20’ enclosed car hauler with my 1500 in some wind- it was complete white knuckle for 300 miles. Absolutely dangerous with that 1500. The truck also felt small pulling my boat..

The main reason I didn’t buy a diesel was that my Ram dealer is owned by a family friend and he damn near refused to sell me a diesel and refuses to drive one himself- he went on and on and on about all the issues they see..

 

[snocam]

I towed my small excavator with my 6.4 last week, forgot to take a picture, I will next time and post it for sure. The machine weighs about 8k, so with the trailer it's just over 11k. I didn't have to go far, really just across town. There were some hills. It pulled great. The gas 6.4 is just practical for me. If I was towing that weight or more every day I'd certainly consider the diesel. However, at this point the 6.4 in the 2500, with the way mine is set up, checks a lot of boxes.

 

[kevin588127]

The one is indeed a running averag, but there is another that shows the current gas tanks MPG and the trip odometer.

I reset my mpg meter every tank and also reset one of the trip meters because that tracks miles for that tank. I leave the other trip meter as a lifetime average as it has never been set. For the two that I reset, I've found them to be pretty accurate, usually .5 mpg higher. Most times it is .1 to .3 off. I think tanks with any amount of idle time tend to be off the most. I don't hand calc every time but I'd say I've checked 75 percent of my tanks.

 

[kevin588127]

I tow a 8.5x20' enclosed trailer with 7' interior height. It weighs 3,700 lbs empty. I load it with ATVs sometimes, my compact tractor sometimes, rental machinery sometimes.

Granted, my current truck is a 1500 but it's only 15 HP/20 lb.ft. below the 6.4 and the truck weighs 1,000 lbs less (or more) than a 2500. So, power to weight ratio is better than the 2500.

Just in terms of pulling power, I can't imagine towing 10k or more with the gasser. This truck is not happy with more than 6k. It runs in 3rd and 4th gear a lot. All temps stay in check, but the constant high RPM screaming is mentally fatiguing on long trips.

As far as 3.73 vs 4.10, it's 150 RPM at highway speed. Totally undetectable. Maybe it's a tiny advantage at low speed accelerating but once up to speed it's not even detectable.

Coming from a 1500 5.7 8 speed with 3.92 to a 2500 6.4 8 speed 4.10s, it is a night and day difference. My 5.7 never felt underpowered pulling a 10k 28' toy hauler but it was never happy doing it. My coolant temps would hit 226 and oil temps as high as 255. Control was another issue. The newer rams addressed the oil temps with a heat exchanger in the filter housing. My dad's 2020 1500 ran about 10 degrees cooler pulling a similar trailer under the same conditions. Beyond that, the extra weight of the 2500 makes the experience so much better. The 6.4 seems to make it's power lower in the rpm range. I pulled the same toy hauler with the 2500 several times and have since upgraded to a bigger toy hauler. The new one is 34', taller and wider and the 2500 tows it better than my 1500 pulled the old 28' rig.

 

[chas0218]

I've been running around town and about 20 miles from my house to work with my tractor and I can tell you coming from a Silverado 1500 and 5.3 it is huge difference. It used to be a white knuckle ride on the crap roads from my house to work now I have to tell myself to slow down. I can't even tell the tractor is back there most the time. The tractor and trailer only weigh about 5500lbs combined so it isn't maxing the truck but it doesn't get thrown around nearly as much. I will say the new tires and wheels made a difference with less sidewall.

 

[Riccochet]

The gas truck tows less, is less capable overall

On paper, somewhat. A diesel 2500 will run out of payload well before it hits towing capacity. In that sense a gasser 2500 can tow a much larger, heavier 5th wheel or similar size/weight bumper pull. Diesel will do better at altitude, which is great if you live at altitude. For me, I'm at most 3000-4000 FASL. I've not had any issues towing through the Appalachian's going to Tennessee.

 

[jerad]

On paper, somewhat. A diesel 2500 will run out of payload well before it hits towing capacity. In that sense a gasser 2500 can tow a much larger, heavier 5th wheel or similar size/weight bumper pull. Diesel will do better at altitude, which is great if you live at altitude. For me, I'm at most 3000-4000 FASL. I've not had any issues towing through the Appalachian's going to Tennessee.

Oh yeah! Heck my 5.7Hemi pulled my travel trailer great through the Appalachian going through Tennessee down to Ashville NC.

Diesels are a beast of an engine, but not needed for my use. To each their own.

My new 6.4L is even better so far. Have yet to experience the Appalachian Mountains but merging and passing is definitely an improvement.

 

[Gondul]

Oh yeah! Heck my 5.7Hemi pulled my travel trailer great through the Appalachian going through Tennessee down to Ashville NC.

Diesels are a beast of an engine, but not needed for my use. To each their own.

My new 6.4L is even better so far. Have yet to experience the Appalachian Mountains but merging and passing is definitely an improvement.

I pulled our new TT (GCVWR was 18K) from OR back to FL... pulled just fine through the mountains... dropped down to 5th and about 3.5K rpms and just kept pulling.
Pulled just fine through 30-40 mph head winds in Wyoming/Nebraska... both times mpg dropped to about 6, then back up to 7, maybe 7.5 through the flats.

About the only thing I'd like is to see more dedicated RV lanes for gas... a lot (but not all) Flying J's have them.

 

[gimmie11s]

On paper, somewhat. A diesel 2500 will run out of payload well before it hits towing capacity. In that sense a gasser 2500 can tow a much larger, heavier 5th wheel or similar size/weight bumper pull. Diesel will do better at altitude, which is great if you live at altitude. For me, I'm at most 3000-4000 FASL. I've not had any issues towing through the Appalachian's going to Tennessee.

This is not correct. The gasser can tow a much larger 5th wheel? Stop it already ...

The payload will be slightly higher on the gas truck, however the GCWR on the diesel will be much higher meaning you can tow more.

These snips are for 2500 tradesman trucks, 4x4 with short bed.

 

[Riccochet]

This is not correct. The gasser can tow a much larger 5th wheel? Stop it already ...

The payload will be slightly higher on the gas truck, however the GCWR on the diesel will be much higher meaning you can tow more.

These snips are for 2500 tradesman trucks, 4x4 with short bed.

You are going to exceed that 2500 lbs of payload LONG before you hit 20,000 lbs of trailer weight. Pin weight is generally 20-23% of trailer weight, which would limit that diesel 2500 to roughly a 9000 lb 5th wheel. Maybe 9000 lbs, that's pushing it, considering 200+ lbs of hitch and 300-400 lbs of passengers and cargo.

Do the math.

And if it's anything other than a stripped down Tradesman the payload is even less. For the higher trim levels it's more like 1900-2000 lbs of payload.

 

[gimmie11s]

You are going to exceed that 2500 lbs of payload LONG before you hit 20,000 lbs of trailer weight. Pin weight is generally 20-23% of trailer weight, which would limit that diesel 2500 to roughly a 9000 lb 5th wheel. Maybe 9000 lbs, that's pushing it, considering 200+ lbs of hitch and 300-400 lbs of passengers and cargo.

Do the math.

And if it's anything other than a stripped down Tradesman the payload is even less. For the higher trim levels it's more like 1900-2000 lbs of payload.

Not if you are towing a tow hauler with 1500lbs or better in the cargo area.

It's silly to say a gas truck is the better tool to use than the diesel on any trailer 12k lbs or heavier IMO. I'd consider engine choice a much more important choice than payload at that weight. Further, you should probably be in a 1 ton anyway so the whole point then becomes moot.

But, like has been said 100x in this thread, you do you boo.

 

[WXman]

You are going to exceed that 2500 lbs of payload LONG before you hit 20,000 lbs of trailer weight. Pin weight is generally 20-23% of trailer weight, which would limit that diesel 2500 to roughly a 9000 lb 5th wheel. Maybe 9000 lbs, that's pushing it, considering 200+ lbs of hitch and 300-400 lbs of passengers and cargo.

Do the math.

And if it's anything other than a stripped down Tradesman the payload is even less. For the higher trim levels it's more like 1900-2000 lbs of payload.

Exactly. When towing, payload is king. That's why the 2500 with diesel is such a bad combo.

 

[Dave01]

Exactly. When towing, payload is king. That's why the 2500 with diesel is such a bad combo.

But doesn't Ram provide the solution?

If you do light towing, don't need the HD truck, go with a 1500 with 5.7.
Want the HD truck, don't tow too heavy or often, go with 2500 with 6.4.
Want the HD truck and power to spare, payload numbers work for what you intend to do, go with 2500 and diesel.
Tow very heavy and/or otherwise need the payload, go with 3500 and diesel.

I sometimes feel there's a need to find what's wrong or limiting with everything. Payload of the 2500 doesn't work for you, go with a 3500, more of a traditional configuration of an HD truck.

 

[gimmie11s]

But doesn't Ram provide the solution?

If you do light towing, don't need the HD truck, go with a 1500 with 5.7.
Want the HD truck, don't tow too heavy or often, go with 2500 with 6.4.
Want the HD truck and power to spare, payload numbers work for what you intend to do, go with 2500 and diesel.
Tow very heavy and/or otherwise need the payload, go with 3500 and diesel.

I sometimes feel there's a need to find what's wrong or limiting with everything. Payload of the 2500 doesn't work for you, go with a 3500, more of a traditional configuration of an HD truck.

100%!

We can close this thread now lol. Good post!

 

[Dave01]

100%!

We can close this thread now lol. Good post!

I'll let you know when we are ready to close the thread, and it won't be closed until we beat the subject to death with a stick, then a bat, then a 16 lb. sledge.

 

[ClawSS]

But doesn't Ram provide the solution?

If you do light towing, don't need the HD truck, go with a 1500 with 5.7.
Want the HD truck, don't tow too heavy or often, go with 2500 with 6.4.
Want the HD truck and power to spare, payload numbers work for what you intend to do, go with 2500 and diesel.
Tow very heavy and/or otherwise need the payload, go with 3500 and diesel.

I sometimes feel there's a need to find what's wrong or limiting with everything. Payload of the 2500 doesn't work for you, go with a 3500, more of a traditional configuration of an HD truck.

That's me, right there...Want without a need.