2021 Stop Sale on certain diesels incoming (intake air heater relay). - Recall Y76 REFRESHED OCT 2021

[Nd79]

Are you brave enough to let it count down and try to start on its own without a 2nd press? (Just kidding, leave well enough alone!)

There was one person yesterday that posted they had done the single press, let it count down, and their truck then started on its own without a 2nd press of the start button. But since that is only one person so far, I am still not sure if my issue was related to single pressing vs. double. When mine finished the preheat countdown, because the relay was disconnected, no true preheat occurred. My truck did not start on its own, it just sat there with the last bar of the preheat countdown displayed. So obviously the truck must have sensed some issue as it did not start. Once I pressed the button a 2nd time it fired right up but soon after is when I noticed the CEL. I have to believe the two things are related, but maybe not.

You can actually make the truck do the grid heating countdown on a cold enough day without it actually starting automatically.

You just push the button without holding the brake pedal. Same if you want to just go to ACC or run the grid heater twice before starting. So maybe on that occasion your foot wasn't completely pushing on the brake pedal? Just speculation of course.

 

[Will_T]

You can actually make the truck do the grid heating countdown on a cold enough day without it actually starting automatically.

You just push the button without holding the brake pedal. Same if you want to just go to ACC or run the grid heater twice before starting. So maybe on that occasion your foot wasn't completely pushing on the brake pedal? Just speculation of course.

Good point and possible. But what I would like to know is what happened to get the CEL. It is seeming most likely that the CEL and that code was generated because I only pressed the button once and the heater count down completed but the engine did not start. As posted above, I have seen older posts saying this will happen. But there is one post above, (post 392), where someone says they often press only once and let the countdown progress even with their relay disconnected and get no codes or CEL. Some of the other older posts I found said simply that if your relay is disconnected and you let the countdown complete without pressing a second time to start the truck you will get a CEL. So why for some and not others?

 

[wolfpack]

SWAG here but it probably needs to see the battery voltage NOT drop for a few seconds during the delayed start countdown before it throws the code. So if you’re quick on the draw with the double-tap you can beat the computer.

 

[Will_T]

SWAG here but it probably needs to see the battery voltage NOT drop for a few seconds during the delayed start countdown before it throws the code. So if you’re quick on the draw with the double-tap you can beat the computer.

Maybe but if that was the reason, why does it not happen to every truck? Diesel_Driver says he only presses once and let's the countdown run and his truck starts just like it would if his relay was still connected.

 

[Jimmy07]

So, looks like disconnecting COULD set a fault if a preheat is called for. The relay control is monitored by the PCM, and when a preheat is called for, the PCM activates the relay and looks for an expected voltage fluctuation. @Will_T , you must have been in an ambient temp low enough that it was definitely expecting some kind of fluctuation, and maybe others haven’t been in cold enough weather yet.

P2609.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[Will_T]

@Jimmy07 Thanks for that. The PDF really explains well what is happening. The only thing I didn't get from reading it is knowledge as to whether fairly quickly pushing the start button twice to bypass the preheat should always avoid setting the fault code?

 

[Jimmy07]

@Jimmy07 Thanks for that. The PDF really explains well what is happening. The only thing I didn't get from reading it is knowledge as to whether fairly quickly pushing the start button twice to bypass the preheat should always avoid setting the fault code?

I would say bypassing the preheat should not set the fault at all, because it is only monitoring for a fluctuation during the 10-75 second preheat.

 

[Jimmy07]

The only thing that will be affected by this, which sucks for some, is remote start will cancel once the fault sets.

 

[Will_T]

The only thing that will be affected by this, which sucks for some, is remote start will cancel once the fault sets.

Will clearing the code fault reset the ability to remote start?

 

[Jimmy07]

Will clearing the code fault reset the ability to remote start?

As long as there is no CEL illuminated, remote start will work. This is a fault that clears itself after a drive cycle. With your banks idash, is it just plugged straight into the OBD port, or did you also have to plug a connector into the canbus junction block behind the headlight switch?

 

[Will_T]

As long as there is no CEL illuminated, remote start will work. This is a fault that clears itself after a drive cycle. With your banks idash, is it just plugged straight into the OBD port, or did you also have to plug a connector into the canbus junction block behind the headlight switch?

My iDash is plugged straight into the OBD port, nowhere else. Once I cleared the fault using the iDash and restarted the truck the CEL light was gone and all seems back to normal. But because I have also reconnected the relay, I was not 100% sure if that also played a role in things being good now. Sounds like no. If I had cleared the error, restarted the truck, and now press the start button twice when starting, it sounds like all would still be good even if I had not reconnected the relay.

Thanks again for all your great help!

 

[Jimmy07]

My iDash is plugged straight into the OBD port, nowhere else. Once I cleared the fault using the iDash and restarted the truck the CEL light was gone and all seems back to normal. But because I have also reconnected the relay, I was not 100% sure if that also played a role in things being good now. Sounds like no. If I had cleared the error, restarted the truck, and now press the start button twice when starting, it sounds like all would still be good even if I had not reconnected the relay.

Thanks again for all your great help!

If the idash is only plugged into the OBD port, it doesn’t have the capability of clearing faults because of the security gateway. It can receive info from the buses, but it can’t send a command past the gateway. It might SAY it cleared, but it was the fact that the condition wasn’t met to set the fault on the next startup that the CEL wasn’t there.

 

[Will_T]

If the idash is only plugged into the OBD port, it doesn’t have the capability of clearing faults because of the security gateway. It can receive info from the buses, but it can’t send a command past the gateway. It might SAY it cleared, but it was the fact that the condition wasn’t met to set the fault on the next startup that the CEL wasn’t there.

That is very interesting to know. Banks advertises it as working to clear fault codes and the manual says it does. When I went through the steps to do it on the iDash, after a few seconds pause, it said cleared. When I then rechecked for codes the iDash said there were none. But if I understand what you are saying correctly, the iDash thinks it cleared it, but it did not. In fact it is so sure that it cleared it that when rechecking for codes, it says there are none even though the original fault has not really been cleared? That would explain why the CEL stayed on even after the iDash "cleared" the fault, but then went off the next time I started the truck. Thanks again.

 

[Nd79]

Good point and possible. But what I would like to know is what happened to get the CEL. It is seeming most likely that the CEL and that code was generated because I only pressed the button once and the heater count down completed but the engine did not start. As posted above, I have seen older posts saying this will happen. But there is one post above, (post 392), where someone says they often press only once and let the countdown progress even with their relay disconnected and get no codes or CEL. Some of the other older posts I found said simply that if your relay is disconnected and you let the countdown complete without pressing a second time to start the truck you will get a CEL. So why for some and not others?

Yeah that is interesting for sure. I wonder if it's a cycle that the truck just catches with the voltage sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. I'm almost certain you got a CEL because the pre heat wasn't skipped, and maybe with enough tries those that didn't get a CEL with the relay disconnected and waiting for the pre heat cycle would eventually get a CEL also.

Mine is at the dealer overnight and being tested tomorrow morning while the truck is still "cold".

 

[Southernspeed]

If the issue is over heating then it seems the RTV acts as an insulator that reduces the ability of the relay to reject heat. If the issue is arcing or shorting to ground that then overloads the relay then the tape insulator should be a good solution. The problem is we dont really know what the failure mode or modes is or are. And apparently RAM doesnt either.

The combination of passing the temp test and more than 600 hours suggests that the failure happens in the first few hundred hours of operation so if you are over 600 hours the failure will not occur. The temp test is designed to catch either an abnormal temperature rise or max temp. It sounds like some of the AA units have a manufacturing problem that results in the overload condition.

I spoke to my supplying dealer yesterday, asking if they were ready to address the recall. He showed me their instructions of what to do with it and explained that the rivets holding the terminals on loosen on some and allow water ingress which then causes internal arcing ( kind of like switching the grid heater on full time) which is going to over heat the relay. Sounds feasible to me.
So I guess if they haven't rattled loose in 600 hours, they reckon they won't in the future.
I asked him how big of a deal this was and he said they'd never heard of a truck burning, and they have a few equally large sister dealerships with no problem trucks.
Unlike most people at dealerships that I've dealt with, this guy did actually seem quite knowledgeable rather than the usual BS you get fed.

 

[Blackpowder]

Truck went to dealer today for Y76 recall. Max temp reached was 36C. Had the AA relay with taped back from the factory so recall Y08 did not apply (no RTV added).

 

[wolfpack]

I spoke to my supplying dealer yesterday, asking if they were ready to address the recall. He showed me their instructions of what to do with it and explained that the rivets holding the terminals on loosen on some and allow water ingress which then causes internal arcing ( kind of like switching the grid heater on full time) which is going to over heat the relay. Sounds feasible to me.
So I guess if they haven't rattled loose in 600 hours, they reckon they won't in the future.
I asked him how big of a deal this was and he said they'd never heard of a truck burning, and they have a few equally large sister dealerships with no problem trucks.
Unlike most people at dealerships that I've dealt with, this guy did actually seem quite knowledgeable rather than the usual BS you get fed.

If that’s the case then it would seem the AB relay is superior with the extra plastic over the metal on the back side.

Water intrusion would also explain the risk of fire when parked with the ignition off, since the relay is hardwired to the battery and the heater is a very low resistance to chassis ground.

Just ordered the AB relay and will swap out myself. I’ll raise hell with FCA later.

Edit: and “working loose” is probably code for “never sealed right in the first place”.

 

[Will_T]

If that’s the case then it would seem the AB relay is superior with the extra plastic over the metal on the back side.

That is what it would seem to me also. But there is probably a shortage of new relays so if you have the AA with the tape and pass the temp test, then you are on your way. If there was a ready supply of AB relays maybe they would be swapping out the AAs. So much of what this recall is all about is being left up to the owners to guess about. From what people are being told by dealers, I am not sure that this recall really assures that all relays that pass the temp test are good for the future.

It sounds like if the temp test is passed, all that means is water has not gotten inside the relay and caused problems yet. But it just seems like there is a lot left to chance. As an example, say you have a truck with 200 hours, live in a dry climate so have not really driven in the rain, park the truck under cover so if it does rain it stays dry, and then take the truck in for the recall. That scenario would certainly apply to my truck so far. If it passes the test, all that would seem to mean is that water has not gotten into the relay yet. But the truck is marked as good, recall is complete and off you go. They don't seem to be testing for loose rivets, only if there has already been a water caused compromise to the relay. So perhaps you have loose rivets, but the truck has stayed fairly dry and so far no water intrusion. Now you spend a few days driving in the rain and maybe water gets into the recall completed relay and now you have a problem. Hard to have a lot of confidence in this whole procedure but then again, what do we really know about it all? Probably not as much as we should.

I have not heard of anyone saying this but I suppose Ram could know that the bad relays were bad from the start. Maybe they know that a problem relay will fail the temp test 100% of the time regardless of water intrusion. If that is the case then maybe this recall is simply looking for those relays that were bad from date of manufacture. Maybe the test finds all the bad relays regardless of whether water has gotten in and caused a problem yet? Man there are a lot of "maybes" and "seems likes" in my post!

 

[diesel_driver_3500]

I went ahead and purchased a new "AB" relay and planned on replacing my "AA." The more I think about it though, I'm not so sure that really accomplishes anything. I guess I should still have that one checked if I install it. Maybe I'll just leave my original relay disconnected for a few months and hope they release a new "AC" replacement. Nothing like a bunch of ambiguity to keep us all guessing.

 

[Southernspeed]

I went ahead and purchased a new "AB" relay and planned on replacing my "AA." The more I think about it though, I'm not so sure that really accomplishes anything. I guess I should still have that one checked if I install it. Maybe I'll just leave my original relay disconnected for a few months and hope they release a new "AC" replacement. Nothing like a bunch of ambiguity to keep us all guessing.

I was thinking the same, buy an AB then let them test it for free. AB I've seen is $100 but that's cheaper than a fire!