Death of Diesel

[RV_Goose]

Yes, a hydrogen powered "generator"/electric truck is what is being developed by GM and Navistar planned to be in broad trials with JB Hunt next year.
The key technology is hydrogen fuel cells, which is basically a way to have the hydrogen fuel create electrical energy to drive an electric motor. The exhaust products are water and no harmful emissions. No batteries needed, as the energy is not being stored, it is being generated by the fuel at the time it's needed; which is basically what we do now with ICE technology. It really is a genius system and much simpler than ICE.

Ballard Power Systems out of BC, Canada has been a global leader in this technology, working on fuel cells since the early 80's. It has taken that long to develop and refine, and is still not in wide production yet. Maybe it's finally the right time for fuel cell technology, or maybe there is something else that will win out.

One of the biggest hurdles is that while hydrogen exists all around us (most obviously in water), it takes a lot of energy to separate hydrogen from the other atoms. I don't know the details of the science, but from my layman's POV it seems like the net energy gain is very small or perhaps even negative. But that didn't stop the broad development of ethanol, which is only popular because there is enough government push and subsidies behind it.

Hydrogen Fuel Cells are an interesting alternative that is already capable of delivering the energy needed for long distance heavy hauling. The infrastructure for fueling and hydrogen extraction are the pieces that seem to be next in development.

B

Pretty sure when I was out in SoCal that they were testing hydrogen cars. They seemed to be promising. Then the company that owned the patent on the refueling places went under and no one could gain control of the dispensers without a long legal battle. That was 2009-2010. Did they resume testing?

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

I think we should go back to coal burning steam engines

 

[bfs673]

One of the biggest hurdles is that while hydrogen exists all around us (most obviously in water), it takes a lot of energy to separate hydrogen from the other atoms. I don't know the details of the science, but from my layman's POV it seems like the net energy gain is very small or perhaps even negative. But that didn't stop the broad development of ethanol, which is only popular because there is enough government push and subsidies behind it.

Yes, it's that damn Law of Conservation of energy: energy can neither be created nor destroyed; only transferred or changed from one form to another. There's no free lunch here. There MUST be a net energy loss (OK, conceivably possible to achieve 100% efficiency, but never likely to happen, and certainly not in our life time).

What matters more is the efficiency or loss of energy through the whole process:

• energy to obtain the fuel source (Oil, Water, Air, electricity, hamsters, etc. )
• energy to refine the fuel source (refinery, separation of H2 from O2)
• energy to store/transport/dispense the fuel source
• fuel source efficiency at the point of use (Gasoline engines are only ~ 30-35% efficient, diesel is roughly 40-45%, H2 fuel cell is 25-30% (assuming it is not being burned), etc...)
• Then there's the efficiency of the drivetrain and/or electric motors

 

[kobra]

So we are going to be pulling water trailers to power are trucks...I’m so confused or maybe I’m a visionary? No just confused .

Nope, a hydrogen fuel tank instead of a diesel fuel tank. And hydrogen fuel stations that can fuel up just as fast or faster than a diesel station. They expect less than 15 minutes to refuel a semi tractor.
A fuel cell just looks like a really big battery. Hydrogen fuel goes in one end, electricity gets generated and water comes out the other end.
Then the electric motors look like, well electric motors

Battery/electric may work for in city delivery fleets.
But for long haul heavy duty trucks that need the range, fuel cell/electric seems very interesting.

An article about it...

Navistar partners with General Motors, OneH2 to bring long-haul hydrogen truck to market

Navistar plans to make its first production model International RH Series fuel cell electric vehicle available in model year 2024.

www.fleetequipmentmag.com

What I do not know for sure, is whether to think our diesel pickups will move to battery/electric or fuel cell/electric. Manufacturers are starting down the road of battery/electric so that seems more likely at this point. If so, then I worry about the range.

B

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Let all that water from the hydrogen systems out in the cold winter see how well it works for the roads lol

 

[kobra]

Yes, it's that damn Law of Conservation of energy: energy can neither be created nor destroyed; only transferred or changed from one form to another. There's no free lunch here. There MUST be a net energy loss (OK, conceivably possible to achieve 100% efficiency, but never likely to happen, and certainly not in our life time).

What matters more is the efficiency or loss of energy through the whole process:

• energy to obtain the fuel source (Oil, Water, Air, electricity, hamsters, etc. )
• energy to refine the fuel source (refinery, separation of H2 from O2)
• energy to store/transport/dispense the fuel source
• fuel source efficiency at the point of use (Gasoline engines are only ~ 30-35% efficient, diesel is roughly 40-45%, H2 fuel cell is 25-30% (assuming it is not being burned), etc...)
• Then there's the efficiency of the drivetrain and/or electric motors

Well stated, thanks!
I was focusing more on just the hydrogen extraction process compared to diesel.
For example, does the resultant diesel fuel have a net gain in energy compared to the energy required to drill, extract, haul, refine, etc? Yes.
Does hydrogen extraction deliver a net gain in energy after all of the energy required to extract it and make ready for consumption? That is the part that I do not know.

B

 

[kobra]

Let all that water from the hydrogen systems out in the cold winter see how well it works for the roads lol

That's ok, they will figure out how to add chemicals to the hydrogen so that the tailpipe spreads ice melt. It will make perfect sense to someone, just no one that we know.

B

 

[bfs673]

Well stated, thanks!
I was focusing more on just the hydrogen extraction process compared to diesel.
For example, does the resultant diesel fuel have a net gain in energy compared to the energy required to drill, extract, haul, refine, etc? Yes.
Does hydrogen extraction deliver a net gain in energy after all of the energy required to extract it and make ready for consumption? That is the part that I do not know.

B

Got it, yes, that makes sense!

 

[MikeXM]

Let all that water from the hydrogen systems out in the cold winter see how well it works for the roads lol

Exactly what I was going to say. That would be a nightmare up north for sure, especially in dense cities. Just think about it... every car in front of you is just laying out a small streak of ice, just for you!

You know what happens when oil get accidentally dropped in a curve during a race? Funny videos!!!! Same thing here I guess.

 

[Great White North Eh]

OK, OK soo I was right then? On Canadian spech trucks we will have to pull tankers to hold the access water but now they have to be insulated! I’m startin to get a headache....and then what happens when they use a Cp 4 to pump the water. ahhhh.

 

[Firebird]

I keep wondering if the big 3 see the writing on the wall? All 3 are now building really good gas powered heavy duty's, and there seems to be a lot more folks buying them now. Used to be, almost every heavy duty I saw on the road was a diesel, now, I'm seeing a pile of gassers.

 

[yorken99]

Yes, it's that damn Law of Conservation of energy: energy can neither be created nor destroyed; only transferred or changed from one form to another. There's no free lunch here. There MUST be a net energy loss (OK, conceivably possible to achieve 100% efficiency, but never likely to happen, and certainly not in our life time).

What matters more is the efficiency or loss of energy through the whole process:

• energy to obtain the fuel source (Oil, Water, Air, electricity, hamsters, etc. )
• energy to refine the fuel source (refinery, separation of H2 from O2)
• energy to store/transport/dispense the fuel source
• fuel source efficiency at the point of use (Gasoline engines are only ~ 30-35% efficient, diesel is roughly 40-45%, H2 fuel cell is 25-30% (assuming it is not being burned), etc...)
• Then there's the efficiency of the drivetrain and/or electric motors

Hydrogen Fuel Cells are up to 60% efficient. It's actually ICE engines that are 25%.

 

[yorken99]

Hydrogen Fuel Cells are up to 60% efficient. It's actually ICE engines that are 25%.

Sorry - first post. And it seems to have devolved into Health Care discussion.

I'm a huge diesel fan and will hold on to mine for as long as I can. But both battery electric and fuel cell electric are coming - they won't be stopped, and their logistical issues will be addressed. Get used to the idea if you are going to live another 10 years or more.

Regarding Fuel Cells: Plug Power is already here. I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually partner with a big automaker. GM and all the other big boys are looking at Fuel Cells as well.

My big question: who wants to ride around in a truck with a bomb underneath (or behind) them? Nobody has answered that question to my satisfaction. What happens when a tank of hydrogen gets too hot or gets ruptured? KABOOM!!!!

Apologies in advance for redirecting the thread back to the OP

 

[bfs673]

Hydrogen Fuel Cells are up to 60% efficient. It's actually ICE engines that are 25%.

Sorry, yes you are correct that fuel cells are roughly 60%efficient.

 

[Great White North Eh]

NOW ON SALE.....the 2030 GM Hindenburg pick-up! What could possibly go wrong?

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

My big question: who wants to ride around in a truck with a bomb underneath (or behind) them? Nobody has answered that question to my satisfaction. What happens when a tank of hydrogen gets too hot or gets ruptured? KABOOM!!!!

tons of people kept their ford pintos after the buy back so that leads me to believe lots of people want to ride in bombs lol

 

[JohnandDonna]

Sorry - first post. And it seems to have devolved into Health Care discussion.

I'm a huge diesel fan and will hold on to mine for as long as I can. But both battery electric and fuel cell electric are coming - they won't be stopped, and their logistical issues will be addressed. Get used to the idea if you are going to live another 10 years or more.

Regarding Fuel Cells: Plug Power is already here. I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually partner with a big automaker. GM and all the other big boys are looking at Fuel Cells as well.

My big question: who wants to ride around in a truck with a bomb underneath (or behind) them? Nobody has answered that question to my satisfaction. What happens when a tank of hydrogen gets too hot or gets ruptured? KABOOM!!!!

Apologies in advance for redirecting the thread back to the OP

The thing about hydrogen (and I am a proponent of it) is that it can be burned directly in an internal combustion engine. And of course power fuel cells. Either way you get water out of the tail pipe.

 

[ITGuy]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/28/tesla-battery-fire/

Lithium Ion batteries aren’t much fun when they get exposed to atmosphere either, they go up like a torch...

 

[JohnWedell]

I can’t even imagine on a trip to Florida with an electric car waiting online for 100 people in front of you to charge their vehicles.

 

[MikeXM]

I can’t even imagine on a trip to Florida with an electric car waiting online for 100 people in front of you to charge their vehicles.

As much as I'm not into electric cars, it is inevitable. As the demand for pump stations diminish, they will be replaced by charging stations. You will not end up waiting with 100 people in front of you. But you will wait for the charging though.
Pump stations will be replaced by charging station with food and entertainment to get your $ while you wait. Basically every food joint could become a charging station.
Well... you gotta eat while travelling, so that's that.