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CP4 to CP-ISB21S3 (revised CP3) change for 2021 6.7L Diesel Trucks -- Merged Threads

kobra

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@UglyViking - as you said a ton of speculation but I like that you mocked up the numbers just the same.
To me the summary is this; likely there is not enough failures to justify a broad recall purely from a cost benefit perspective. However, if FCA/Cummins values brand reputation and loyalty enough, that may be the deciding factor for them.

Thanks again,
B
 

Brutal_HO

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leeroy this isn't directed at you just responding to sort of follow up with my thoughts. I was not able to find exact numbers of Ram cummins HD trucks, as Ram does not publish those numbers to my knowledge. That said, GM does a breakdown of their HD vs 1500 truck sales, assuming it's relatively similar I was able to calculate that roughly 26% of GM trucks sold are HD trucks. I have no clue how many of the total HD trucks are diesel but for arguments sake lets say 80% of all 2500/3500 trucks are diesel. Here are some quick numbers using 26% of all ram trucks as HD and 80% of that being diesel.

Total 2020 Ram truck sales563281
Total 2019 Ram truck sales633694
Total 2019-2020 Ram truck sales that are HD (26% of the combined numbers above)311213
Total 2019-2020 Ram trucks with a 6.7 cummins (80% of the above number)248970

Now lets assume that for some odd reason FCA is paying some absurdly high price on the CP3 pump, it's still going to be cheaper, by a lot, than what you could buy it for over the counter or online. I'll go with the assumption that FCA is paying 80% of what a Bosch CP3 would go for on the market and we will call it $650. So, to replace every current 2019-2020 truck with a CP3 let's call it $1,000 with labor and parts. I think this is realistically on the super high side of things but for arguments sake it's simple. So to replace every CP4 equipped truck with a CP3 we are talking $248,970,000 thats a ton of coin. Now consider that in 2020 alone FCA brought home 7.3 billion in pre-tax earnings. Assuming they did a little less the year before we are still talking about a 250 million debt against a 14 billion profit, or 1.47% of pre-tax earnings. Is that a lot? Depends on the perspective I suppose.

One other thing to keep in mind is that each failure of the CP4 costs prob 8-12k at the FCA level using similar guesses. Assuming the absolute lowest on this (8k per truck) that means that 13% of all trucks equipped with a CP4 would have to fail for this to be a cost beneficial move. I have no idea how high the number of failures is but I would be surprised to hear it's anywhere in the double digit failure rate. That said, you still have to take into account things like brand perception, Cummins pressuring FCA as it makes their engines look bad, and the fact that they only used the pumps for 2 years and while there are owners who have well over 100k miles without fail most of these trucks probably have lower numbers and owners who are religiously using fuel additives and such to keep the pump alive, as time goes on that may slip and thus change the overall failure rate.

There is a ton of speculation here, but I think it's an interesting conversation none the less and I'll be eagerly awaiting to see how FCA handles this as that is probably the biggest sign of my long term standing with the brand.

There was talk of Cummins taking some of that cost on for a writeoff. I would consider that in the calculations. 100% speculation, but perhaps there's some cost sharing to consider.

$120M for either one of these companies is nothing to protect the brand image, especially if it puts a hurt on the other guys.
 

UglyViking

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@kobra That is basically it. I don't think the failure rate is remotely close to 10% and from my back of the numbers math it's likely 10% or more for this to be justified. Luckily the FCA bean counters have all this info so it's even easier for them to make an informed decision. I'll reiterate what I've stated before in that I'll be beyond surprised if FCA doesn't issue a TSB/recall on the CP4. If they don't I will be swapping in an S&S CP3 and calling it a day. I also won't be buying another FCA product in the future if that is how they treat the situation but everyone gets to make up their own mind.
 

UglyViking

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There was talk of Cummins taking some of that cost on for a writeoff. I would consider that in the calculations. 100% speculation, but perhaps there's some cost sharing to consider.

$120M for either one of these companies is nothing to protect the brand image, especially if it puts a hurt on the other guys.

I wouldn't be surprised if Bosch shared on some of that as well, but I was trying to look at a bit of a worst case situation, where the CP3 swap is high in cost and look at FCA eating the whole thing, then comparing it to their earnings to get a sense of scale. To be honest I would be surprised if Bosch and FCA don't share a large portion of the bill, and Cummins may step in just to try and protect the brand not because they are at fault.

Def an interesting add though!
 

exiledinaz

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81b2db0b8758987dbbdaa786a200b7e1.jpg

There is always this option for you as well. The conversion I did with a week of use and some heavy towing has proven a good choice for my application.


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@UglyViking - as you said a ton of speculation but I like that you mocked up the numbers just the same.
To me the summary is this; likely there is not enough failures to justify a broad recall purely from a cost benefit perspective. However, if FCA/Cummins values brand reputation and loyalty enough, that may be the deciding factor for them.

Thanks again,
B
if there was not many going out, I think they probably would have left the CP4 in and not gone back to the CP3. It does make me believe it was very expensive and many broke to go back in 2 short years.
 

camojimmy

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if there was not many going out, I think they probably would have left the CP4 in and not gone back to the CP3. It does make me believe it was very expensive and many broke to go back in 2 short years.
I agree. Hopefully more information comes out soon.
 

Mike_SE

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I have question About the CP4 and hope I'm posting in the right thread. I'm coming from an 06 Dodge 5.9 so forgive my lack of knowledge on these newer trucks. Did the 2018 model have the CP3?
If so why couldn't a guy buy the gear cover plate from an earlier 6.7 and use that with a newer CP3 to replace his CP4? Idon't like the idea of having to space out my ECU and using an adapter to fit the CP3 into the 2019-2020 trucks.
Also it seems to me that many of the guys having trouble are heavy haulers or pulling big fivers. I have a fifth wheel so I'm a little worried lol.
 

UglyViking

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I have question About the CP4 and hope I'm posting in the right thread. I'm coming from an 06 Dodge 5.9 so forgive my lack of knowledge on these newer trucks. Did the 2018 model have the CP3?
If so why couldn't a guy buy the gear cover plate from an earlier 6.7 and use that with a newer CP3 to replace his CP4? Idon't like the idea of having to space out my ECU and using an adapter to fit the CP3 into the 2019-2020 trucks.
Also it seems to me that many of the guys having trouble are heavy haulers or pulling big fivers. I have a fifth wheel so I'm a little worried lol.
The updated 6.7 found in '19+ trucks has 2 fuel lines coming out of the CP4 and has higher FRP than the same '18 and earlier trucks. I'm not sure how FCA mounts the CP3 to the newer 6.7 trucks but I hear it's a custom cover plate.

I'd wager a guess that the cheapest option is going to be an II or S&S CP3 swap. If there were a cheaper reliable option guys would be doing it.

As for the CP4 giving out on heavy haulers. Hard to say. It seems hard to really nail down something that makes it worse or keeps it alive longer. I think you're best bet would be to make sure you keep your tank above 1/4 full, fuel additive is a plus, fresh quality fuel is a requirement. Keep your fuel filters on their schedule and you have done all you can do.
 

H3LZSN1P3R

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The updated 6.7 found in '19+ trucks has 2 fuel lines coming out of the CP4 and has higher FRP than the same '18 and earlier trucks. I'm not sure how FCA mounts the CP3 to the newer 6.7 trucks but I hear it's a custom cover plate.

I'd wager a guess that the cheapest option is going to be an II or S&S CP3 swap. If there were a cheaper reliable option guys would be doing it.

As for the CP4 giving out on heavy haulers. Hard to say. It seems hard to really nail down something that makes it worse or keeps it alive longer. I think you're best bet would be to make sure you keep your tank above 1/4 full, fuel additive is a plus, fresh quality fuel is a requirement. Keep your fuel filters on their schedule and you have done all you can do.
That keep the tank above 1/4 tank is a load of crap seeing when the fuel light is on there is still 6-7gallons in the tank
 

UglyViking

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That keep the tank above 1/4 tank is a load of crap seeing when the fuel light is on there is still 6-7gallons in the tank
My understanding it's aeration more than anything else? Lots of guys are buying sump kits if it's nothing.
 

Heckyl

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I've got no desire to get into an elongated discussion on this but as it seems at least partially directed at me I'll make a final comment.

I'm not going to defend my position on supporting our troops, or any of that. I am only going to call out that to me, that comment came off as very entitled. If it wasn't intended that way then fine but we are on an online forum where it's impossible to read body language or tone. Because of that your word choice is important and if you use language that is incorrect and someone calls you out on it I think it's fair game. As the OP on the topic clarified he was trying to share what an annoyance it is for him.

I'm fine with getting called a prima donna or "premadona" as OP stated and whatever other things you wanna throw. That said, he has his opinion on the matter, I've got mine. That is the last I'll say on the topic so if anyone wants the final word, by all means…

It really surprised me on how many attacked this disabled veteran that is new to the forum. Being a disabled veteran does not give that person immunity from legal or moral issues, however, I do know they deserve our gratitude, grace, indebtedness, and respect.

Because you said “ on an online forum, where it is impossible to read body language or tone,...if you use language that is incorrect...
I think it’s fair game.” That should give you MORE reserve on passing judgment, not less! Even when you have the shot, I think sometimes
it takes a bigger man to not take it. In fact, attacking and calling out a disabled veteran, just on opinion on the intent on how something was worded, for being entitled, ironically makes all of you look entitled, ennobled, unpatriotic, and wormlike.

I think all of you need to check your attitude.
 

NordicNevs

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It really surprised me on how many attacked this disabled veteran that is new to the forum. Being a disabled veteran does not give that person immunity from legal or moral issues, however, I do know they deserve our gratitude, grace, indebtedness, and respect.

Because you said “ on an online forum, where it is impossible to read body language or tone,...if you use language that is incorrect...
I think it’s fair game.” That should give you MORE reserve on passing judgment, not less! Even when you have the shot, I think sometimes
it takes a bigger man to not take it. In fact, attacking and calling out a disabled veteran, just on opinion on the intent on how something was worded, for being entitled, ironically makes all of you look entitled, ennobled, unpatriotic, and wormlike.

I think all of you need to check your attitude.

I think some might need to get out of the VA waiting rooms with the perpetual victim ideology robs those who had fallen out of their valor and those other disabled veterans that don’t use that as an excuse and find a way push through it, of their pride.

Being associated with “poor disabled veterans” is embarrassing and idk about you but the military I served in was built on the backs of accountability and policing our own.

And before you come across with the “how dare you” .... Anbar Provence 2008, I stood at taps too...


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H3LZSN1P3R

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My understanding it's aeration more than anything else? Lots of guys are buying sump kits if it's nothing.
The filters are still full and the strainer basket on the pump in the tank prevents that unless your running with 2 gallons left its not an issue... the chance of enough air getting to the cp4 is very minimal unless you actually run out of fuel
 

steve49

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I never thought about aeration, I was always told the fuel keeps the tank pump form over heating, so don't let it go below 1/8 of a tank. I normally fill when it gets down to a quarter tank.
 

Heckyl

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I think some might need to get out of the VA waiting rooms with the perpetual victim ideology robs those who had fallen out of their valor and those other disabled veterans that don’t use that as an excuse and find a way push through it, of their pride.

Being associated with “poor disabled veterans” is embarrassing and idk about you but the military I served in was built on the backs of accountability and policing our own.

And before you come across with the “how dare you” .... Anbar Provence 2008, I stood at taps too...


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I am all about protecting the valor of those that are fighting and serving now, veterans, and those that have died fighting. That’s actually what I’m trying to do! I don’t stand for the veterans that are immoral, unlawful, or those that try to use the victim mentality to get whatever they want. I do agree that some veterans will try and use that for their gain, which is disgusting. I thought that the disabled vet was getting tossed into the “disgusting“ category without anyone knowing the intent on his wording. I’m not without fault, but I do know about accountability.
 

H3LZSN1P3R

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I am all about protecting the valor of those that are fighting and serving now, veterans, and those that have died fighting. That’s actually what I’m trying to do! I don’t stand for the veterans that are immoral, unlawful, or those that try to use the victim mentality to get whatever they want. I do agree that some veterans will try and use that for their gain, which is disgusting. I thought that the disabled vet was getting tossed into the “disgusting“ category without anyone knowing the intent on his wording. I’m not without fault, but I do know about accountability.
The thing is he has no reason to even mention the vet part...
 

NordicNevs

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I’d buy a beer for any one of you all on here just know that.



Onto the discussion. I’ll add these here as I did my other thread.

I took apart my CP4 to see the cam rollers and internal lobe and here is what I got.
08f5b7a50c5b2c00ae5e0d093ad11587.jpg

9f673bb359c5c40eac817f73abc6313b.jpg

d01a6f501e80d4046ff74093ab8e2b20.jpg

3aa14299ff1d0de5cb5c539310d85fd9.jpg

498a5cfd54975e31639da88a33f08dbb.jpg

c48215aea5dee9467616012626aca1cf.jpg


Those etch marks do have depth to them as I can feel them. Not good.

Now here is my theory on where the failure occurs.

It’s at the bottom of the stroke where the spring has the lest amount of compression force on the roller that can allow it to pivot or shift (it’s not retained in any position) which results in the roller to be destroyed by the lobe and results in the catastrophic failure

I used fuel additive since day 1

Would this pump fail? Not sure, but I’m glad I swapped it out.


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NDanecker

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That lobe is so wide that it most likely will not rotate considering the aggressiveness of the lobe and centerline of the pump. Issue is the design relying on diesel fuel to create the lubricating barrier between the lobe and small diameter roller. I estimate around 5,000 lbf spread on a very small contact area which will result on almost pure metal to metal contact. The forces are no where near the same on a camshaft/roller design which uses a much thicker viscosity oil allowing a protective film between roller (with larger diameter) and lobe. Particles flowing around the inside of that case also contribute to the roller not spinning or sliding on the lobe. Again - piss poor design IMO.
 
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