Toyota Has Me Tempted To Separate From Power Wagon

[el_barto]

No doubt the car market isn’t insane like it was in 2021/early 2022, a few models (like the Bronco) excepted. Still I paid well under MSRP back when I bought mine (2019) so I could sell and would realize very little depreciation.

If I were to sell I’d definitely be trying to find the “right” buyer that appreciates the value added from certain modifications though

 

[jetrinka]

Power Wagon pricing is ridiculous now. Even through Toyota dealers are almost certainly going to be adding ADMs to LCs as they start appearing on lots, I can't see pricing get up to current PW pricing. Perhaps fully loaded everything LC with ADM vs barebones PW (now without standard winch) and we may see the prices touch.

Holy smokes you’re right! I had to look. A PW without a standard winch. That’s just wrong…

 

[jenninr]

I think the bottom of used PW pricing has tanked.. I got offered $41000 for my 2020 perfect condition,low miles (31000) Power wagon. that is with AEV wheels and near new Toyo 35's and RSI topper. KBB is not keeping with reality. Ford broncos on the other hand are commanding a very high price...still over msrp.

Retail prices haven't tanked yet (they are coming down slowly) but I have heard that about trade in offers on a lot of vehicles. I think dealers are getting nervous that the "supply chain issue" easy money time is ending

 

[Redfour5]

The 2024 Land Cruiser has my eye, making me really consider trading my Power Wagon for it.

They arent really comparable, but I think I could live with the LC.

Power: 2.4L Turbo Hybrid, 326hp/465ft-lb. Considering the hp loss naturally aspirated 6.4L have at altitude (assuming 3% loss per 1000ft, I live at over 5000ft, that 15% loss so ~350hp), the turbo 2.4L would be nearly as powerful (and more torque) than the PW. And probably weighs between 5 and 6k, which is substantially lighter.

Fuel Economy: No official mpg yet, but estimated 27mpg combined. I get 13mpg combined in the PW. Double.

Towing: Power Wagon rated at ~10,000, LC at 6,000lb. I dont tow frequently, so this isnt a huge factor for me.

Offroad: The PW is a beast, body on frame, solid axles, dual locking axles and front sway bar disconnect. Its the winner. But its huge and doesnt fit down a lot of trails . The Land Cruiser, I mean, its a Land Crusier. It will surely have offroad chops. Body on frame, but independent front susp, standard locking center and rear axle, optional front sway bar disconnect, full time 4wd. Factory 33s. Still a big vehicle compared to a TJ, but substantially smaller than the PW. No factory winch, but Im sure the aftermarket would solve that with ease.

Camping: I camp in the bed of my truck under the topper. Its great. But Im sure i could sleep in the back of the LC. 2400W inverter standard is pretty neat feature for powering accessories.

Truck Bed: Well I like having a truck bed for hauling, but since i got the topper it makes it more of an SUV anyways. I suppose I would just have to get a small trailer for hauling gravel, slash, leaves, trash etc. Ive used my truck to haul pallets occasionally for work, but probably not often enough to say I need a truck bed.

Another big plus is the Toyota aftermarket is huge. Lots of options, and because theres lots of options pricing is more competitive

But damn I do love my power wagon! I definitely was planning on keeping this truck for 100k miles plus, 5-10 years, but here i am at a little over 40k miles and nearly 4 years and questioning everthing.

Thanks for listening to my Ted talk.

I was reading about them, and apparently, the base price of them DROPPED 10 K vs the old one. I read one article quite hyped by the changes AND an apparent reduction in pricing. Yes, you will still be able to spend 80K plus if you trick em out, but a lot of tech improvements apparently even applying to more basic units.

 

[jsalbre]

I was reading about them, and apparently, the base price of them DROPPED 10 K vs the old one. I read one article quite hyped by the changes AND an apparent reduction in pricing. Yes, you will still be able to spend 80K plus if you trick em out, but a lot of tech improvements apparently even applying to more basic units.

It’s not so much that the base price dropped (50k for the new LC 250 vs 89k for the old LC 200 series), but that’s it’s actually a different vehicle line. The LC we’re getting in the US is the LC Prado in the rest of the world. It’s their smaller, cheaper, less over-built model. The “real” new LC is the 300 series, brought here as the new Lexus LX600, which sadly has that hideous “Predator” grille.

 

[buyhold]

I was reading about them, and apparently, the base price of them DROPPED 10 K vs the old one. I read one article quite hyped by the changes AND an apparent reduction in pricing. Yes, you will still be able to spend 80K plus if you trick em out, but a lot of tech improvements apparently even applying to more basic units.

The outgoing Landcruiser was the most bloated, technolux and expensive LC ever. It seemed to sell poorly and I can't help to think much of that had to do with loss of identity/detachment from target market segment and buyers responding accordingly, at least in the US. It just didn't fit in the market very well any more.

I think that Toyota's revamp is an excellent recalibration of what the LC is supposed to be in this day and age (my opinion) and that includes bringing the price point down. Many people point out that this brings the LC more into competition with its own 4Runner but we will see what happens there.

 

[buyhold]

It’s not so much that the base price dropped (50k for the new LC 250 vs 89k for the old LC 200 series), but that’s it’s actually a different vehicle line. The LC we’re getting in the US is the LC Prado in the rest of the world. It’s their smaller, cheaper, less over-built model. The “real” new LC is the 300 series, brought here as the new Lexus LX600, which sadly has that hideous “Predator” grille.

Believe it or not, the 300 series is still the more mall-crawlery variant of the Land Cruiser line. Nothing to scoff at but the Land Cruiser 70 series, most would say, is the most "authentic" LC today. By authentic, I mean the most dedicated off-roader with most spartan funcitonality. Still has SFA. The 70 series are sold in many countries where RHD vehicles are sold but has never, and likely never, be sold in the US.

 

[jsalbre]

I think the new LC will definitely steal buyers from the 4Runner, unless the new version shifts in a drastically different direction.

The current 4Runner (which is comically out of date) can run over $60k.

 

[jsalbre]

Believe it or not, the 300 series is still the more mall-crawlery variant of the Land Cruiser line. Nothing to scoff at but the Land Cruiser 70 series, most would say, is the most "authentic" LC today. By authentic, I mean the most dedicated off-roader with most spartan funcitonality. Still has SFA. The 70 series are sold in many countries where RHD vehicles are sold but has never, and likely never, be sold in the US.

Oh yeah, the 300 is definitely an evolution of the 200, but both are still quite capable and “Landcruiser-y”, even if very luxurious. The 70 series is awesome, and even got a big revamp for 2024. It has LED headlights, touchscreen infotainment, and lane departure warning now. For a truck from 1982 that’s pretty impressive.

 

[Aaandroger]

I think the bottom of used PW pricing has tanked.. I got offered $41000 for my 2020 perfect condition,low miles (31000) Power wagon. that is with AEV wheels and near new Toyo 35's and RSI topper. KBB is not keeping with reality. Ford broncos on the other hand are commanding a very high price...still over msrp.

I think it depends on local market as well. Our local CarMax offered me $51K last night for my 2021 75th anniversary edition with 17xxx miles on it--even with the rear seat deleted and other random mods.

Still not enough for me to sell it to them, but hoping that the comparison helps the discussion.

 

[UglyViking]

I've been toying a lot with downsizing from my current 2500 Cummins rig as I recently purchased a 2014 dually to tow my new toyhauler. I figured it would be nice to have something smaller, more nimble, the same or better MPG, better for my use case of solo trail adventures as the kiddos are too young and eventually as they get older there will still be space. I've looked a lot at the following vehicles, and here are my personal takes:

New GX
Seems like the best "LC" alternative in the states. Base price starts around 60k supposedly, which seems decent. Absolutely despise the front end, but I'm sure the aftermarket will address it. Of all the vehicles I've looked at, this one appears to strike the best balance between daily/trail rig. Hybrid is a concern, but at least it has a v6 connected.

New LC
Hybrid 4 cyl is gonna be the biggest reason to avoid. Pricing seems decent, and I like the stripped down model, but once you start loading it down with larger tires, suspension, roofrack for extra "dirty" storage, etc. and you're gonna be stressing that thing out a lot, not to mention that I fear the hybrid portion of it won't keep charged on trail rides, which means that it's gonna likely be bogged down even more. I'm guessing a majority of the torque is coming from the electric part of the engine, so once that loses power, you're gonna notice a serious loss in off road capability, or that is my fear anyway.

Ineos Grenedier
I was 100% sold on this vehicle as I followed it for years before the pricing was released. 72k base model, plus give or take 10-15k in add ons and the price jumps quickly. Payload is fantastic, but turning radius, mpg, and power are concerning. MPG combined is rated at 15mpg, and 0-60 time is a lethargic 8.6 sec if memory serves. Combined with the fact it's a brand new manufacture, means if they aren't successful parts support and aftermarket support are gonna be tricky to say the least.

Wrangler/Gladiator
Outside of the standard FCA concerns, they are basically the same rig they have always been, but more creature comforts and refinement. Interior is loud on the highway, and steering is a bit more floaty than other options, so not the best vehicle for putting tons of highway miles on, but off road they are really hard to beat. Easy to slap 37s on with minimal mods, Wrangler has an outstanding turning radius, Gladiator not so much. MPG is not great but not atrocious. The v6 is pretty darn reliable at this point and the aftermarket is outstanding.

Then there are other options like the Bronco, Tacoma, 4runner, new colorado, etc. These have all been beaten to death so I won't list them here, but a lot of pros from the Wrangler/Gladiator with the trade off being better on road with less off road performance. That said, guys have taken most of these vehicles everywhere, so it's not a serious concern unless you really want the look of 35/37s or you're playing in the rocks/technical trails a lot.

I think there are a lot of good choices in the market right now, and it's nice to see new competition come in which helps push the whole market forward. That said, I don't have any plans to trade in at the moment. As much as I'd like something smaller, more nimble, most of the "smaller" rigs have grown a lot in size over the past 10-15 years and are approaching fullsize truck size. The 1500 series of trucks have about the same turning radius, width, etc. as the current Ram 2500, and you lose the capability and solid axle, so that is an instant no go.

Plus, I've got a lot of cash into my current truck, and still have plans for it. The used market has cooled a lot, and with the current state of the world, and impending issues, I don't see myself jumping into something different currently, especially since I just purchased a new toyhauler and dually. Unless a deal pops up that is just too good to pass, I don't see my switching trucks any time soon. The only thing that I'd seriously consider at this point would be a Wrangler/Gladiator, but the pricing just isn't there to push me over. I do miss the ability to pull the doors/roof though, so never say never I guess.

 

[Redfour5]

I've been toying a lot with downsizing from my current 2500 Cummins rig as I recently purchased a 2014 dually to tow my new toyhauler. I figured it would be nice to have something smaller, more nimble, the same or better MPG, better for my use case of solo trail adventures as the kiddos are too young and eventually as they get older there will still be space. I've looked a lot at the following vehicles, and here are my personal takes:

New GX
Seems like the best "LC" alternative in the states. Base price starts around 60k supposedly, which seems decent. Absolutely despise the front end, but I'm sure the aftermarket will address it. Of all the vehicles I've looked at, this one appears to strike the best balance between daily/trail rig. Hybrid is a concern, but at least it has a v6 connected.

New LC
Hybrid 4 cyl is gonna be the biggest reason to avoid. Pricing seems decent, and I like the stripped down model, but once you start loading it down with larger tires, suspension, roofrack for extra "dirty" storage, etc. and you're gonna be stressing that thing out a lot, not to mention that I fear the hybrid portion of it won't keep charged on trail rides, which means that it's gonna likely be bogged down even more. I'm guessing a majority of the torque is coming from the electric part of the engine, so once that loses power, you're gonna notice a serious loss in off road capability, or that is my fear anyway.

Ineos Grenedier
I was 100% sold on this vehicle as I followed it for years before the pricing was released. 72k base model, plus give or take 10-15k in add ons and the price jumps quickly. Payload is fantastic, but turning radius, mpg, and power are concerning. MPG combined is rated at 15mpg, and 0-60 time is a lethargic 8.6 sec if memory serves. Combined with the fact it's a brand new manufacture, means if they aren't successful parts support and aftermarket support are gonna be tricky to say the least.

Wrangler/Gladiator
Outside of the standard FCA concerns, they are basically the same rig they have always been, but more creature comforts and refinement. Interior is loud on the highway, and steering is a bit more floaty than other options, so not the best vehicle for putting tons of highway miles on, but off road they are really hard to beat. Easy to slap 37s on with minimal mods, Wrangler has an outstanding turning radius, Gladiator not so much. MPG is not great but not atrocious. The v6 is pretty darn reliable at this point and the aftermarket is outstanding.

Then there are other options like the Bronco, Tacoma, 4runner, new colorado, etc. These have all been beaten to death so I won't list them here, but a lot of pros from the Wrangler/Gladiator with the trade off being better on road with less off road performance. That said, guys have taken most of these vehicles everywhere, so it's not a serious concern unless you really want the look of 35/37s or you're playing in the rocks/technical trails a lot.

I think there are a lot of good choices in the market right now, and it's nice to see new competition come in which helps push the whole market forward. That said, I don't have any plans to trade in at the moment. As much as I'd like something smaller, more nimble, most of the "smaller" rigs have grown a lot in size over the past 10-15 years and are approaching fullsize truck size. The 1500 series of trucks have about the same turning radius, width, etc. as the current Ram 2500, and you lose the capability and solid axle, so that is an instant no go.

Plus, I've got a lot of cash into my current truck, and still have plans for it. The used market has cooled a lot, and with the current state of the world, and impending issues, I don't see myself jumping into something different currently, especially since I just purchased a new toyhauler and dually. Unless a deal pops up that is just too good to pass, I don't see my switching trucks any time soon. The only thing that I'd seriously consider at this point would be a Wrangler/Gladiator, but the pricing just isn't there to push me over. I do miss the ability to pull the doors/roof though, so never say never I guess.

I presently have a 2018 Renegade "daily driver" as opposed to my 2500, I stole for like 18,500 in May 2019 from a dealer that's pretty loaded. It only has 36K on it and I was looking at the Jeep Grand Cherokee LXE Trailhawk my dealer has 10K below MSRP before the 7500 buck government rebate so in the 55K range. The like 30 mile range on electric just about covers my daily driving, so little to no gas expenditure BUT, I can still explore the Trailhawk aspects here in Montana if I want to use the gas capabilities... They actually have a five year lease program with an under 5% rate from Stellantis, where you get the Government rebate built into the pricing so you don't have to claim it at the end of the year...next April... but, Even though they are saying they will give me 17K for my Renegade???? I'll still be at or over 500 bucks a month and the lease payoff at the end.

The Renegade is almost paid off and has been a great daily driver with some light off road abilities and is only 365 a month at a 3.24% rate for another few months and still low mileage with another year on the extended warranty. You can't beat that now days... So, I'll stick with the Rene...

 

[Trail_Wagon]

The 2024 Land Cruiser has my eye, making me really consider trading my Power Wagon for it.

They arent really comparable, but I think I could live with the LC.

Power: 2.4L Turbo Hybrid, 326hp/465ft-lb. Considering the hp loss naturally aspirated 6.4L have at altitude (assuming 3% loss per 1000ft, I live at over 5000ft, that 15% loss so ~350hp), the turbo 2.4L would be nearly as powerful (and more torque) than the PW. And probably weighs between 5 and 6k, which is substantially lighter.

Fuel Economy: No official mpg yet, but estimated 27mpg combined. I get 13mpg combined in the PW. Double.

Towing: Power Wagon rated at ~10,000, LC at 6,000lb. I dont tow frequently, so this isnt a huge factor for me.

Offroad: The PW is a beast, body on frame, solid axles, dual locking axles and front sway bar disconnect. Its the winner. But its huge and doesnt fit down a lot of trails . The Land Cruiser, I mean, its a Land Crusier. It will surely have offroad chops. Body on frame, but independent front susp, standard locking center and rear axle, optional front sway bar disconnect, full time 4wd. Factory 33s. Still a big vehicle compared to a TJ, but substantially smaller than the PW. No factory winch, but Im sure the aftermarket would solve that with ease.

Camping: I camp in the bed of my truck under the topper. Its great. But Im sure i could sleep in the back of the LC. 2400W inverter standard is pretty neat feature for powering accessories.

Truck Bed: Well I like having a truck bed for hauling, but since i got the topper it makes it more of an SUV anyways. I suppose I would just have to get a small trailer for hauling gravel, slash, leaves, trash etc. Ive used my truck to haul pallets occasionally for work, but probably not often enough to say I need a truck bed.

Another big plus is the Toyota aftermarket is huge. Lots of options, and because theres lots of options pricing is more competitive

But damn I do love my power wagon! I definitely was planning on keeping this truck for 100k miles plus, 5-10 years, but here i am at a little over 40k miles and nearly 4 years and questioning everthing.

Thanks for listening to my Ted talk.

Here's my take on it. I love driving my power wagon. It has a feel to it. Its huge, comfy, powerful, roomy, has a comanding view of the road. It feels GOOD. Sure, there are other cars that drive better, have more power, certainly get better mileage etc etc etc. But none of them invoke the passion of driving and make you want to go places just to drive it.

 

[Rockcrawlindude]

Here's my take on it. I love driving my power wagon. It has a feel to it. Its huge, comfy, powerful, roomy, has a comanding view of the road. It feels GOOD. Sure, there are other cars that drive better, have more power, certainly get better mileage etc etc etc. But none of them invoke the passion of driving and make you want to go places just to drive it.

I’m happy that you’re happy.

I love my truck but it certainly does not invoke any passion of driving lol

 

[Poolmonkey]

I’m happy that you’re happy.

I love my truck but it certainly does not invoke any passion of driving lol

Yeah, this PW isn’t a whole lotta fun usually. It’s ok, has it’s moments off road.

 

[jetrinka]

The utility of a truck is unmatched IMO. I love knowing the PW is as capable as it is even if I rarely use it. Its certainly gotten me into/out of some nasty/snowy weather in and around the hills/mountains where I live. Also been able to use the winch a bit which is always fun. I just view it as one of the biggest tools in my tool box.

 

[Poolmonkey]

The utility of a truck is unmatched IMO. I love knowing the PW is as capable as it is even if I rarely use it. Its certainly gotten me into/out of some nasty/snowy weather in and around the hills/mountains where I live. Also been able to use the winch a bit which is always fun. I just view it as one of the biggest tools in my tool box.

Oh yeah, gotta have a capable truck. This thing is just so grandpappyish vs a half ton and especially vs the really cool half tons. It’s when that front locks that it shines and that’s quite often during hunt season.

 

[jetrinka]

Oh yeah, gotta have a capable truck. This thing is just so grandpappyish vs a half ton and especially vs the really cool half tons. It’s when that front locks that it shines and that’s quite often during hunt season.

LOL I got the truck stuck on purpose last year to test out the front locker. There is a great hill around our house and we had some ultra sloppy/wet snow and I fully stopped and attempted to get going again. Studded snow tires. 2wd no go. 4wd no go. Put the rear locker in no go. 4lo and trying to creep still no go. Put the front locker on and lo-and-behold she started to creep up the hill and I slowly gained momentum and climbed the thing. It was awesome.

 

[Poolmonkey]

LOL I got the truck stuck on purpose last year to test out the front locker. There is a great hill around our house and we had some ultra sloppy/wet snow and I fully stopped and attempted to get going again. Studded snow tires. 2wd no go. 4wd no go. Put the rear locker in no go. 4lo and trying to creep still no go. Put the front locker on and lo-and-behold she started to creep up the hill and I slowly gained momentum and climbed the thing. It was awesome.

Gotta have at least one locker to get that lil’ TT out of duck camp without spinning tires and thrashing, two is even better…slow, under control and schweeeeet.

 

[jetrinka]

Gotta have at least one locker to get that lil’ TT out of duck camp without spinning tires and thrashing, two is even better…slow, under control and schweeeeet.

I've seen you post on here more than once about the duck camp. I think we need a thread/story/pictures of you getting in/out of this duck camp. Sounds rad!