New ZF trans for 2023?

[UglyViking]

Ok, I'm 100% aware that I'm reaching here a bit but hear me out.

A few days ago there was a post about a 2023 HD being caught in the wild without camo (link). The only part that was "camo" was that they wrapped the Cummins badges, odd…

That got me thinking, I recall seeing a post from back in 2020 (link) and it says:

We are hoping to see a version of the PowerLine make its way into the Ram Heavy Duty lineup when the truck gets its next sufficient update in 2023.

Now, I know that "hoping" doesn't mean anything, and that this may be hopeful, and all. That said, why would FCA cover the Cummins badge? The only reason I could think would be that they have a new knob shifter in the interior, which would indicate a new trans, and they are trying to reduce the chance of any drive by photos showcasing that before the official announcement. One could ask why not fully remove the badge? I've got no clue. Maybe they are so close to the announcement they figured it was good enough? Maybe it's completely unrelated. I just thought it would be fun to spitball on this.

Truth be told, as much as the 68rfe gets a bad rep I'm worried that a ZF trans is gonna seriously hurt any potential for additional power/tuning. If the ZF is as indestructible as I've heard, they maybe it doesn't matter. Also, the performance emissions market is basically in it's infancy days now, so it's not a huge concern.

It could also be that with a new ZF trans RAM may finally be merging the HO and SO lines into a single engine trans combo. That would be pretty interesting.

 

[Jimmy07]

No ZF trans for 2023 Cummins Rams. The 2023 order guides have been posted, and it’s not available.
I’m sure they’ve been running around frankensteined trucks for years now testing out new transmission options.

 

[UglyViking]

Hmm, thats too bad. I feel like they have been toying with this for years now, kind of assumed it was soon.

I wonder why they covered the Cummins logo.

 

[FLARam]

No ZF trans for 2023 Cummins Rams. The 2023 order guides have been posted, and it’s not available.
I’m sure they’ve been running around frankensteined trucks for years now testing out new transmission options.

Where can you find a 2023 order guide?

 

[Linked4door]

Where can you find a 2023 order guide?

Under the general discussion tab about halfway down. Here is the 2500, the 3500 was posted also in its own thread.

2023 HD 2500 Order Guides with Pricing

Here are the order guides with MSRP and Invoice pricing for the 2023 2500 Mega and Crew Cab trucks. We are pricing our orders at 4% under invoice for 2023 again, orders aren't open as of this writing, but I would anticipate them opening around the 11th from what I'm hearing. Prepare for...

hdrams.com

 

[jdefoe0424]

If the rumors do eventually come true, I imagine that the ZF 8 speed would replace the Aisin and 68rfe. Hopefully then RAM would match the competition and all Cummins trucks could become HO's...though I'm sure they won't do that to be able to keep the $$$ for the upgrade. IIRC the ZF 8 speed trans is rated for a max of around 1,000 ftlbs.
I would bet money that a ZF 8 speed equipped SO Cummins would outpull an HO Aisin equipped Cummins. It would bring a whole bunch of other benefits too, such as even better mpg and increased towing without the need for more power.

I won't buy a Cummins until the 6 speeds are gone.

 

[MegaStro]

I personally have not had any issues with the 6-speed but I would imagine an 8 speed would turn a bit better mileage on an unloaded truck! Would be great to be the king of power and mileage RAM!

 

[gimmie11s]

If the rumors do eventually come true, I imagine that the ZF 8 speed would replace the Aisin and 68rfe. Hopefully then RAM would match the competition and all Cummins trucks could become HO's...though I'm sure they won't do that to be able to keep the $$$ for the upgrade. IIRC the ZF 8 speed trans is rated for a max of around 1,000 ftlbs.
I would bet money that a ZF 8 speed equipped SO Cummins would outpull an HO Aisin equipped Cummins. It would bring a whole bunch of other benefits too, such as even better mpg and increased towing without the need for more power.

I won't buy a Cummins until the 6 speeds are gone.

The recreational HO user doesn't care about mpg.

The guys who care about MPG in their cummins trucks are hot shot drivers and those who use their trucks for work.
And those guys buy the SO.

The Aisin and 68rfe certainly have their limitations, but to declare "im not buying one until the 6 speeds are gone" -- You know, because 8 is more than 6 so 8 must be better! This is about the dumbest thing ive read all day.

 

[jsalbre]

The recreational HO user doesn't care about mpg.

The guys who care about MPG in their cummins trucks are hot shot drivers and those who use their trucks for work.
And those guys buy the SO.

The Aisin and 68rfe certainly have their limitations, but to declare "im not buying one until the 6 speeds are gone" -- You know, because 8 is more than 6 so 8 must be better! This is about the dumbest thing ive read all day.

There’s a reason that semi trucks have 18 speed transmissions. With the short rev range of a diesel having more gears can only be a benefit, assuming of course that they’re spaced correctly.

 

[jdefoe0424]

The recreational HO user doesn't care about mpg.

The guys who care about MPG in their cummins trucks are hot shot drivers and those who use their trucks for work.
And those guys buy the SO.

The Aisin and 68rfe certainly have their limitations, but to declare "im not buying one until the 6 speeds are gone" -- You know, because 8 is more than 6 so 8 must be better! This is about the dumbest thing ive read all day.

Maybe they do care about MPG, maybe they don't. But it's still on the mind of the customer and a big selling point. There's plenty of posts here complaining about the poor MPG of the HO Cummins...with the SO and an 8 speed it might become a moot point. But, I don't think the HO motor is going to go away because people just want the 1,000 ftlb number whether they'll use it or not.

Have you driven the 6.4 hemi with both the 6 speed and 8 speed? More gears but with roughly the same final drive means better spacing and smaller gaps between gears, means the engine stays in the power band easier and yields better efficiency. Check out the table below, the 6 speed has over a 40% change 1-2 and nearly 30% change from 3-4 and the 8 speed is much more even.
The ZF 8 speed is highly regarded as one of the smoothest transmissions out there, and I guarantee it's warranty rate is less than the 68/66rfe.

Would you rather have to go up 6 steps or 8 steps to get up say a 10' staircase? Same height rise overall so the same amount of work is done, but one feels easier than the other because your legs are able to stay in a range where they work better and have more strength.

So is a 10 speed better than the 8 speed? I don't think so...I think it's too many gears for low load situations, loaded I'm sure it's not as bad except again when you're cruising down the highway and it's constantly changing gears with every little change in the slope of the road. That's why people complain about it hunting because the software, tuning and shift tables get to be so complicated that they can't get it figured out.

gear change	6 speed	8 speed
1-2	43%​	33%​
2-3	23%​	33%​
3-4	29%​	20%​
4-5	18%​	23%​
5-6	23%​	22%​
6-7		16%​
7-8		20%​

 

[MegaStro]

I am not a hotshot driver or anything crazy but I do haul my tractor once every so often, looking at a camper, but mostly daily driver (74 miles round trip). I consider mileage but am in no way scared of it. I am able to get 19+ pretty much steadily every day with the occasional 20+ (hand calculated for non-believers I have posted numbers before). Drive these things smart and they can sip fuel. I always have felt they are missing one more over drive on the highway since they make so much torque down low. Its like having a motorcycle with 5 gears on the highway, seems to be running RPM's for nothing more that running out of gear. I would never consider the Hemi again after going back and forth one time. 7mpg towing the tractor vs 14 and I wont even mention the loudness and constant gear changing in the mountain. To each their own!

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

With the power range of the cummins there is no benefit to an 8 speed…you will not net better millage the duracrap and powerjoke only saw an increase of failures not millage they also need it more due to the rpm range they make power

 

[tchur1]

Maybe they do care about MPG, maybe they don't. But it's still on the mind of the customer and a big selling point. There's plenty of posts here complaining about the poor MPG of the HO Cummins...with the SO and an 8 speed it might become a moot point. But, I don't think the HO motor is going to go away because people just want the 1,000 ftlb number whether they'll use it or not.

Have you driven the 6.4 hemi with both the 6 speed and 8 speed? More gears but with roughly the same final drive means better spacing and smaller gaps between gears, means the engine stays in the power band easier and yields better efficiency. Check out the table below, the 6 speed has over a 40% change 1-2 and nearly 30% change from 3-4 and the 8 speed is much more even.
The ZF 8 speed is highly regarded as one of the smoothest transmissions out there, and I guarantee it's warranty rate is less than the 68/66rfe.

Would you rather have to go up 6 steps or 8 steps to get up say a 10' staircase? Same height rise overall so the same amount of work is done, but one feels easier than the other because your legs are able to stay in a range where they work better and have more strength.

So is a 10 speed better than the 8 speed? I don't think so...I think it's too many gears for low load situations, loaded I'm sure it's not as bad except again when you're cruising down the highway and it's constantly changing gears with every little change in the slope of the road. That's why people complain about it hunting because the software, tuning and shift tables get to be so complicated that they can't get it figured out.

gear change	6 speed	8 speed
1-2	43%​	33%​
2-3	23%​	33%​
3-4	29%​	20%​
4-5	18%​	23%​
5-6	23%​	22%​
6-7		16%​
7-8		20%​

I dont think anyone is arguing the mechanical advantage of an 8 speed over a 6 speed on paper. It just seems rough to say ill never buy a Cummins until they move to an 8 speed. Maybe that works for your use case but there are plenty of happy people out there driving a Cummins with a 6 speed. Myself being one of them.

It does sound like they will move to an 8 speed (probably the ZF) in 2025 or so and it will probably be awesome. Ill probably buy one. But im not wwriting off a cummins now because the AISIN only has 6 gears.

 

[gimmie11s]

Maybe they do care about MPG, maybe they don't. But it's still on the mind of the customer and a big selling point. There's plenty of posts here complaining about the poor MPG of the HO Cummins...with the SO and an 8 speed it might become a moot point. But, I don't think the HO motor is going to go away because people just want the 1,000 ftlb number whether they'll use it or not.

Have you driven the 6.4 hemi with both the 6 speed and 8 speed? More gears but with roughly the same final drive means better spacing and smaller gaps between gears, means the engine stays in the power band easier and yields better efficiency. Check out the table below, the 6 speed has over a 40% change 1-2 and nearly 30% change from 3-4 and the 8 speed is much more even.
The ZF 8 speed is highly regarded as one of the smoothest transmissions out there, and I guarantee it's warranty rate is less than the 68/66rfe.

Would you rather have to go up 6 steps or 8 steps to get up say a 10' staircase? Same height rise overall so the same amount of work is done, but one feels easier than the other because your legs are able to stay in a range where they work better and have more strength.

So is a 10 speed better than the 8 speed? I don't think so...I think it's too many gears for low load situations, loaded I'm sure it's not as bad except again when you're cruising down the highway and it's constantly changing gears with every little change in the slope of the road. That's why people complain about it hunting because the software, tuning and shift tables get to be so complicated that they can't get it figured out.

gear change	6 speed	8 speed
1-2	43%​	33%​
2-3	23%​	33%​
3-4	29%​	20%​
4-5	18%​	23%​
5-6	23%​	22%​
6-7		16%​
7-8		20%​

Ill concede the truck will be in the meat of the power band "more often" with more gears, but MPG is not going to be affected on a macro scale -- on long trips; towing or unloaded.

More gears does not = a deeper overdrive gear which is where you would see a mpg gain.

 

[jdefoe0424]

I dont think anyone is arguing the mechanical advantage of an 8 speed over a 6 speed on paper. It just seems rough to say ill never buy a Cummins until they move to an 8 speed. Maybe that works for your use case but there are plenty of happy people out there driving a Cummins with a 6 speed. Myself being one of them.

I does sound like they will move to an 8 speed (probably the ZF) in 2025 or so and it will probably be awesome. Ill probably buy one. But im not wwriting off a cummins now because the AISIN only has 6 gears.

The 8 speed 6.4 fits my use case for now, and by the time a new transmission comes along my use case will be moving further towards a diesel. That's the plan anyways.

Ill concede the truck will be in the meat of the power band "more often" with more gears, but MPG is not going to be affected on a macro scale -- on long trips; towing or unloaded.

More gears does not = a deeper overdrive gear which is where you would see a mpg gain.

Power to move things is power, it's all about efficiency...that's something that ZF has got down pretty good. Their automatics are often just as efficient as manual transmissions, I imagine a good bit more efficient than the 68rfe.

 

[Nick]

It is all about the power bands . An inline six has a larger power band than an 8 . Longer piston stroke . Most semi trucks have wire guided computer shifted transmissions . Not automatics in the true sense of a fluid driven tranny but it will do all the shifting . It's all about staying in the power band. HO ,SO I've had both and the fuel mileage towing is about the same . I just want to move the load not get into a drag race . I will take an inline 6 over a pencil piston 8 any day.

 

[Brutal_HO]

Ok, I'm 100% aware that I'm reaching here a bit but hear me out.

A few days ago there was a post about a 2023 HD being caught in the wild without camo (link). The only part that was "camo" was that they wrapped the Cummins badges, odd…

That got me thinking, I recall seeing a post from back in 2020 (link) and it says:


Now, I know that "hoping" doesn't mean anything, and that this may be hopeful, and all. That said, why would FCA cover the Cummins badge? The only reason I could think would be that they have a new knob shifter in the interior, which would indicate a new trans, and they are trying to reduce the chance of any drive by photos showcasing that before the official announcement. One could ask why not fully remove the badge? I've got no clue. Maybe they are so close to the announcement they figured it was good enough? Maybe it's completely unrelated. I just thought it would be fun to spitball on this.

Truth be told, as much as the 68rfe gets a bad rep I'm worried that a ZF trans is gonna seriously hurt any potential for additional power/tuning. If the ZF is as indestructible as I've heard, they maybe it doesn't matter. Also, the performance emissions market is basically in it's infancy days now, so it's not a huge concern.

It could also be that with a new ZF trans RAM may finally be merging the HO and SO lines into a single engine trans combo. That would be pretty interesting.

Haven't all the spy pics been the Rebel with the Cummins? I think that's why they were hiding it.

Maybe it's a Hurricane badge on a 2024?

 

[UglyViking]

Haven't all the spy pics been the Rebel with the Cummins? I think that's why they were hiding it.

Maybe it's a Hurricane badge on a 2024?

It looks like a Cummins badge, but who knows. It seems odd they would cover the badge since I can see no exterior changes with the exception of the mirrors.

 

[superjoe83]

It looks like a Cummins badge, but who knows. It seems odd they would cover the badge since I can see no exterior changes with the exception of the mirrors.

It's a long shot but I wonder if they are testing the cummins turbo gas motor? The badge may say something other than "turbo diesel" under the "C"

 

[UglyViking]

It's a long shot but I wonder if they are testing the cummins turbo gas motor? The badge may say something other than "turbo diesel" under the "C"

Hadn't thought about that, but it's a good point. I'd imagine there would have been more leaks to thos point but you never know. Maybe they redesigned the badge? Haha