HO vs non-HO MPG

[thecastle]

I was surprised at how much def the trucks use while towing. On my 630 mile towing trip, I burned roughly 62 gallons of diesel and about 2.5 gallons or half a tank of def. Basically a 1/4 of a tank every 300 miles while towing.

 

[gpattikjr]

Here's the evic from picking up the truck. HO srw, unloaded, 60-75 mph through the hills of WV. It was filled up by the dealer at some point, I added 20 more, so no hand calc this time.

 

[ETX Ram]

Read through each post in this thread. I think it leaves me scratching my head more than answers question for me. Going to retire before long so therefore will need to live within my means. I had bought my current truck then ordered a Flagstaff fiver. The combo would have been a near perfect match for pin weight, but definitely pushing it as far as the numbers go. Well the build date on the Flagstaff was months out and I made the mistake of taking the wife on a road trip to "just look at" a new Montana . Well its nearly 5 feet longer and 3k heavier that the one we had ordered. You guessed it. Canceled the order on the Flagstaff and had the Montana prepped for sale.

2500 SO with 3.73's pulls great. Pulls 14k up and down hills like a champ. No complaints there. Guys my hand calculated mileage empty is consistently between 20 and 22 mpg, and calculated loaded is consistently between 10.1 to 11.8. Before anyone calls BS on those figures, I drive like an old man. Pulling my fiver it never sees more than a 65 mph max speed, and most times I am on secondary roads at 55 to 60 mph. With the heavier pin weight trailer I know I'd be much more comfortable with a DRW truck, having owned three 5.9 CTD DRW in the past. I am about to pull the trigger on ordering a 3500 DRW Laramie, but had be waffling on getting one with the HO CTD just to be able to have the Aisin transmission. Seeing the whopping differences in MPGs you guys have posted now has me second guessing myself. I'm half tempted to get chassis cab model to get the SO engine - which is plenty enough for me - and be able to get the Aisin transmission too.

I know - there is the train of thought that if one wants a HD truck, then stop worrying about mileage. Upshot of the matter is that I'm gonna pay an arm and a leg for what will obviously wind up be a 23 year model build, then I need to look at mileage too in the big picture. Anyway I respect the opinions of the forum members here and wanted to see if anyone wanted to weigh in - no pun intended

Lee

 

[Nd79]

Read through each post in this thread. I think it leaves me scratching my head more than answers question for me. Going to retire before long so therefore will need to live within my means. I had bought my current truck then ordered a Flagstaff fiver. The combo would have been a near perfect match for pin weight, but definitely pushing it as far as the numbers go. Well the build date on the Flagstaff was months out and I made the mistake of taking the wife on a road trip to "just look at" a new Montana . Well its nearly 5 feet longer and 3k heavier that the one we had ordered. You guessed it. Canceled the order on the Flagstaff and had the Montana prepped for sale.

2500 SO with 3.73's pulls great. Pulls 14k up and down hills like a champ. No complaints there. Guys my hand calculated mileage empty is consistently between 20 and 22 mpg, and calculated loaded is consistently between 10.1 to 11.8. Before anyone calls BS on those figures, I drive like an old man. Pulling my fiver it never sees more than a 65 mph max speed, and most times I am on secondary roads at 55 to 60 mph. With the heavier pin weight trailer I know I'd be much more comfortable with a DRW truck, having owned three 5.9 CTD DRW in the past. I am about to pull the trigger on ordering a 3500 DRW Laramie, but had be waffling on getting one with the HO CTD just to be able to have the Aisin transmission. Seeing the whopping differences in MPGs you guys have posted now has me second guessing myself. I'm half tempted to get chassis cab model to get the SO engine - which is plenty enough for me - and be able to get the Aisin transmission too.

I know - there is the train of thought that if one wants a HD truck, then stop worrying about mileage. Upshot of the matter is that I'm gonna pay an arm and a leg for what will obviously wind up be a 23 year model build, then I need to look at mileage too in the big picture. Anyway I respect the opinions of the forum members here and wanted to see if anyone wanted to weigh in - no pun intended

Lee

I have a 3500 SO and consistently see roughly the same mpg as you, Sometimess less when towing but that is when I'm doing short residential runs trailer weight at 14.5k. Keep in mind I never spend significant time driving city without towing so I can't speak to MPG there. Like you I also wanted the better mpg of the SO and the Aisin but didn't want to jump to a chassis cab to get it. I spent $1,000 in fuel last month so it does factor into my small business.
Here's some observations I've had since buying my truck that might help you.

1. I read somewhere (possibly earlier in this thread) when I was looking at ordering my truck that the HO gets roughly 10-15% less mpg than the SO. If those numbers are correct I would have spent $2,800 more in fuel for last calendar year. If you aren't fueling up every day of the week like me that is significantly less difference.

2. I'm very happy with my truck and if I can get 150k-200k miles out of my 68rfe with heavy usage before rebuild I'll be happy. Time will tell. I have seen trans temps climb close to 200 the past week (100 degree heat at high elevation) but this only happens for a few min at the end of my runs when I'm pulling heavy and slow 20 mph. Always ending with a high idle cool down while I off load. 95% of the time my trans temp is between 168-174.

3. For me it was all down to the numbers for the business. Less upfront and financed cost, less fuel usage, and theoretically less frequent fluid changes on the 68rfe. That said.....

4. I do think from what I read (haven't driven an HO Aisin) that the HO gives an overall better towing experience. The extra turbo boost (could be wrong here) of the HO coupled with the shift strategy of the Aisin gives a stronger Exhaust brake feel as far as I can tell. Sometimes I have to lightly hover my foot on the brake pedal to get the 68rfe to downshift on flat ground to get the Exhaust brake into the sweet spot. That said, the SO EB is still killer.

5. The HO package also gives you a larger rear diff, possibly transfer case (could never confirm)

All that said, if I were in your shoes and not towing the 5th wheel all that often I think the cost difference would be negligible and I'd spring for the HO and piece of mind. My truck is a tool for my small business and I plan for occasional unexpected maintenance in the future. Haven't had to dip into that fund yet though knock on wood. I also have a back up truck at my disposal, though not ideal, for unscheduled down time.

 

[Brutal_HO]

I have a 3500 SO and consistently see roughly the same mpg as you, Sometimess less when towing but that is when I'm doing short residential runs trailer weight at 14.5k. Keep in mind I never spend significant time driving city without towing so I can't speak to MPG there. Like you I also wanted the better mpg of the SO and the Aisin but didn't want to jump to a chassis cab to get it. I spent $1,000 in fuel last month so it does factor into my small business.
Here's some observations I've had since buying my truck that might help you.

1. I read somewhere (possibly earlier in this thread) when I was looking at ordering my truck that the HO gets roughly 10-15% less mpg than the SO. If those numbers are correct I would have spent $2,800 more in fuel for last calendar year. If you aren't fueling up every day of the week like me that is significantly less difference.

2. I'm very happy with my truck and if I can get 150k-200k miles out of my 68rfe with heavy usage before rebuild I'll be happy. Time will tell. I have seen trans temps climb close to 200 the past week (100 degree heat at high elevation) but this only happens for a few min at the end of my runs when I'm pulling heavy and slow 20 mph. Always ending with a high idle cool down while I off load. 95% of the time my trans temp is between 168-174.

3. For me it was all down to the numbers for the business. Less upfront and financed cost, less fuel usage, and theoretically less frequent fluid changes on the 68rfe. That said.....

4. I do think from what I read (haven't driven an HO Aisin) that the HO gives an overall better towing experience. The extra turbo boost (could be wrong here) of the HO coupled with the shift strategy of the Aisin gives a stronger Exhaust brake feel as far as I can tell. Sometimes I have to lightly hover my foot on the brake pedal to get the 68rfe to downshift on flat ground to get the Exhaust brake into the sweet spot. That said, the SO EB is still killer.

5. The HO package also gives you a larger rear diff, possibly transfer case (could never confirm)

All that said, if I were in your shoes and not towing the 5th wheel all that often I think the cost difference would be negligible and I'd spring for the HO and piece of mind. My truck is a tool for my small business and I plan for occasional unexpected maintenance in the future. Haven't had to dip into that fund yet though knock on wood. I also have a back up truck at my disposal, though not ideal, for unscheduled down time.

The SO xfr case is s BWG44-46(elec) or 44-47(man), the HO is a BW44-48 (elec) 44-49 (man)

 

[tchur1]

Read through each post in this thread. I think it leaves me scratching my head more than answers question for me. Going to retire before long so therefore will need to live within my means. I had bought my current truck then ordered a Flagstaff fiver. The combo would have been a near perfect match for pin weight, but definitely pushing it as far as the numbers go. Well the build date on the Flagstaff was months out and I made the mistake of taking the wife on a road trip to "just look at" a new Montana . Well its nearly 5 feet longer and 3k heavier that the one we had ordered. You guessed it. Canceled the order on the Flagstaff and had the Montana prepped for sale.

2500 SO with 3.73's pulls great. Pulls 14k up and down hills like a champ. No complaints there. Guys my hand calculated mileage empty is consistently between 20 and 22 mpg, and calculated loaded is consistently between 10.1 to 11.8. Before anyone calls BS on those figures, I drive like an old man. Pulling my fiver it never sees more than a 65 mph max speed, and most times I am on secondary roads at 55 to 60 mph. With the heavier pin weight trailer I know I'd be much more comfortable with a DRW truck, having owned three 5.9 CTD DRW in the past. I am about to pull the trigger on ordering a 3500 DRW Laramie, but had be waffling on getting one with the HO CTD just to be able to have the Aisin transmission. Seeing the whopping differences in MPGs you guys have posted now has me second guessing myself. I'm half tempted to get chassis cab model to get the SO engine - which is plenty enough for me - and be able to get the Aisin transmission too.

I know - there is the train of thought that if one wants a HD truck, then stop worrying about mileage. Upshot of the matter is that I'm gonna pay an arm and a leg for what will obviously wind up be a 23 year model build, then I need to look at mileage too in the big picture. Anyway I respect the opinions of the forum members here and wanted to see if anyone wanted to weigh in - no pun intended

Lee

I have an HO and see around 20 mpg hand calced for my daily driving unloaded. I live in an area that’s mainly 45 mph speed limits and not much stop and go. I drive pretty light footed so i don’t think it’s crazy to get this mileage unloaded.

when hooked up I’m usually pulling around 10k pounds and get about 13 mpgs in the same area and driving style. I haven’t towed with the SO but I really like the towing experience of the HO. And the mile difference is pretty negligible between the two IMO. All that said, don’t let so e random guy on the internet spend your money. Get what you want and think is right.

 

[ETX Ram]

"All that said, don’t let so e random guy on the internet spend your money. Get what you want and think is right."
LOL - You got that right tchur1!

You guys would most likely laugh your butts off if you had witnessed me spending 18 months deciding what flatbed I wanted to put on my 05 single cab DRL 4x4. Though it was a 5.9 I REALLY miss that one. Spoiler alert - went with a Bradford Built with never a regret. Wife got t-boned in a 30 mile zone by some gal in a small care that never checked up at a stop sign the gal ran. Hit one of my below the bed tool boxes and scuffed a bit of the power coat off of the tool box door. Completely destroyed the front end of the car.

I do indeed appreciate everyone's input, but don't feel slighted if I don't jump on one bandwagon or another. Looks like now on my agenda is researching the differences in "SO xfr case is s BWG44-46(elec) or 44-47(man), the HO is a BW44-48 (elec) 44-49 (man)". Was pretty sure the Laramie only comes with the electric shift, but now I need to go check the differences. All info and prompts will be looked into. Thanks

Lee

 

[Brutal_HO]

"All that said, don’t let so e random guy on the internet spend your money. Get what you want and think is right."
LOL - You got that right tchur1!

You guys would most likely laugh your butts off if you had witnessed me spending 18 months deciding what flatbed I wanted to put on my 05 single cab DRL 4x4. Though it was a 5.9 I REALLY miss that one. Spoiler alert - went with a Bradford Built with never a regret. Wife got t-boned in a 30 mile zone by some gal in a small care that never checked up at a stop sign the gal ran. Hit one of my below the bed tool boxes and scuffed a bit of the power coat off of the tool box door. Completely destroyed the front end of the car.

I do indeed appreciate everyone's input, but don't feel slighted if I don't jump on one bandwagon or another. Looks like now on my agenda is researching the differences in "SO xfr case is s BWG44-46(elec) or 44-47(man), the HO is a BW44-48 (elec) 44-49 (man)". Was pretty sure the Laramie only comes with the electric shift, but now I need to go check the differences. All info and prompts will be looked into. Thanks

Lee

Can't say what options are offered, those are just the t-case that BW makes for the HD trucks.

 

[thecastle]

So, I tow all the time with my '19 3500 HO Megacab SRW. The biggest reason I purchased the HO was for the AISIN transmission, and the better durability reputation it has over the 68RFE. I own several fleet vehicles, and the ram is one of them for my company. One of my vehicles is a 2000 Ford F-450. That truck empty weighs about 13,200lbs, (service body, counter weights, 42ft boom). Anyway the point I'm coming to is, I end up replacing the transmission on this truck about every 150K miles, its on tranny #4. Each time I have to replace the transmission its a 1-2 weeks of downtime, plus a tow to a shop, and I have to pay for a HD wrecker, as most tow trucks max at 12,000lbs. Not to mention the cost.... When my trucks aren't rolling they aren't making money, downtime is bad.

I do not find that my RAM 3500 HO seems to get significantly different fuel economy than people here claim with the SO. Its hard to compare as a most diesel owners are like fishermen sizing their catch when comparing fuel economy...... But there is a difference in maintenance schedules which is a significant cost on these trucks. I believe the manual recommends trans oil changes every 30K miles vs 60K miles on SO. The rest of the maintenance seems to be the same. between SO/HO. Skip 4wd for lower cost and better economy while towing unless you really, need it. I've never needed it, even when off roading while towing.

BTW I don't think the HO's extra power really means much to most people. Mine is 400hp, SO is 370hp. I doubt most people can tell 30hp difference in a 8600lbs truck. like I said I wanted the AISIN, and I enjoy getting the top engine. I've never driven a SO to compare the performance between the two. I suspect the SO is probably a little less laggy as its higher compression and lives on less boost, than the HO. Also the higher compression should mean better fuel economy, all else being equal.

 

[cc1999]

I own both a 2022 3500 HO regular cab 4x4 rolling on 35s as well as a 2015 2500 crew cab 4x4 also rolling on 35s.
So far empty / not towing they both seem to get right around 15mpg. In this area the speed limits are 75 on on the highway and I generally set the cruise at 83.
Being that I travel mostly in Kansas and Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweeping down the plains at about 15-30 mph every day lol , that plus I don't drive slow on the interstates, I pretty sure my 15 mpg is about normal on both trucks. Pulling comes with so many different scenarios, it is hard to say.
Last week I was hauling with the 3500 HO Dirt, Rock and Stone at about 7 ton a load on my dump trailer that probably weighs around 3500lbs empty, my HO averaged 10.5mpg on two full tanks of fuel I ran through it while I was doing all that hauling last week. My 2500 would have likely been pretty similar, I rarely pull that heavy with it.

 

[GPurcell01]

I know I've posted in here already but thought I should give an update. 2021 HO now with over 20k miles on it. Leveled on 37s.

Highway cruising 78-80 still getting mid 17's
Around where I live is all 55mph roads and that is also 17's. Will go down into the 16's when I'm having a heavy foot.
Going into the city gets me down to 15-16 range.

Towing my 34ft TT however, at 65mph I'm averaging 10mpg. Tows the trailer effortlessly but loves the diesel.

 

[IndyRamMega]

It

So, I tow all the time with my '19 3500 HO Megacab SRW. The biggest reason I purchased the HO was for the AISIN transmission, and the better durability reputation it has over the 68RFE. I own several fleet vehicles, and the ram is one of them for my company. One of my vehicles is a 2000 Ford F-450. That truck empty weighs about 13,200lbs, (service body, counter weights, 42ft boom). Anyway the point I'm coming to is, I end up replacing the transmission on this truck about every 150K miles, its on tranny #4. Each time I have to replace the transmission its a 1-2 weeks of downtime, plus a tow to a shop, and I have to pay for a HD wrecker, as most tow trucks max at 12,000lbs. Not to mention the cost.... When my trucks aren't rolling they aren't making money, downtime is bad.

I do not find that my RAM 3500 HO seems to get significantly different fuel economy than people here claim with the SO. Its hard to compare as a most diesel owners are like fishermen sizing their catch when comparing fuel economy...... But there is a difference in maintenance schedules which is a significant cost on these trucks. I believe the manual recommends trans oil changes every 30K miles vs 60K miles on SO. The rest of the maintenance seems to be the same. between SO/HO. Skip 4wd for lower cost and better economy while towing unless you really, need it. I've never needed it, even when off roading while towing.

BTW I don't think the HO's extra power really means much to most people. Mine is 400hp, SO is 370hp. I doubt most people can tell 30hp difference in a 8600lbs truck. like I said I wanted the AISIN, and I enjoy getting the top engine. I've never driven a SO to compare the performance between the two. I suspect the SO is probably a little less laggy as its higher compression and lives on less boost, than the HO. Also the higher compression should mean better fuel economy, all else being equalits

So, I tow all the time with my '19 3500 HO Megacab SRW. The biggest reason I purchased the HO was for the AISIN transmission, and the better durability reputation it has over the 68RFE. I own several fleet vehicles, and the ram is one of them for my company. One of my vehicles is a 2000 Ford F-450. That truck empty weighs about 13,200lbs, (service body, counter weights, 42ft boom). Anyway the point I'm coming to is, I end up replacing the transmission on this truck about every 150K miles, its on tranny #4. Each time I have to replace the transmission its a 1-2 weeks of downtime, plus a tow to a shop, and I have to pay for a HD wrecker, as most tow trucks max at 12,000lbs. Not to mention the cost.... When my trucks aren't rolling they aren't making money, downtime is bad.

I do not find that my RAM 3500 HO seems to get significantly different fuel economy than people here claim with the SO. Its hard to compare as a most diesel owners are like fishermen sizing their catch when comparing fuel economy...... But there is a difference in maintenance schedules which is a significant cost on these trucks. I believe the manual recommends trans oil changes every 30K miles vs 60K miles on SO. The rest of the maintenance seems to be the same. between SO/HO. Skip 4wd for lower cost and better economy while towing unless you really, need it. I've never needed it, even when off roading while towing.

BTW I don't think the HO's extra power really means much to most people. Mine is 400hp, SO is 370hp. I doubt most people can tell 30hp difference in a 8600lbs truck. like I said I wanted the AISIN, and I enjoy getting the top engine. I've never driven a SO to compare the performance between the two. I suspect the SO is probably a little less laggy as its higher compression and lives on less boost, than the HO. Also the higher compression should mean better fuel economy, all else being equal.

It's not the 35 hp you feel....it's the 225 ft lbs....that's 25% of the SO output....

 

[thecastle]

It



It's not the 35 hp you feel....it's the 225 ft lbs....that's 25% of the SO output....

Horsepower is just a unit of measurement to compare how much work that engine can do over time. How many times per second an engine makes that torque determines horsepower. An engine that wasn't spinning could still be making torque without making any power at all. Just like you can apply torque to a rusted bolt, and the thing never moves. You're applying torque, but not doing any work. Hence no horsepower. Once it starts rotating, you're making some power.

What people feel is acceleration which is related to how much work/power the engine can produce in time; i.e. hp. So the advantage of 1000lb/ft vs 850lbft at 1500rpm is the SO makes 242hp, while the HO will make 285hp. HP=(torquexrpm)/5252. I doubt there is much difference in the 0-60 time of the SO/HO all else being equal as there isn't a lot of difference in the power curves aka hp. The difference will be that if it takes say 250hp to keep a truck and trailer moving at 60mph. The HO should be able to generate the needed 250hp in a taller gear/lower rpm, where as the SO would need a downshift to get the HP/RPM high enough to generate 250hp. But since the hp curves are close on the two engines, i suspect there isn't much difference in raw speed. The HO will be able to stay in a taller gear longer, with a heavier load.

 

[jeffn]

Read through each post in this thread. I think it leaves me scratching my head more than answers question for me. Going to retire before long so therefore will need to live within my means. I had bought my current truck then ordered a Flagstaff fiver. The combo would have been a near perfect match for pin weight, but definitely pushing it as far as the numbers go. Well the build date on the Flagstaff was months out and I made the mistake of taking the wife on a road trip to "just look at" a new Montana . Well its nearly 5 feet longer and 3k heavier that the one we had ordered. You guessed it. Canceled the order on the Flagstaff and had the Montana prepped for sale.

2500 SO with 3.73's pulls great. Pulls 14k up and down hills like a champ. No complaints there. Guys my hand calculated mileage empty is consistently between 20 and 22 mpg, and calculated loaded is consistently between 10.1 to 11.8. Before anyone calls BS on those figures, I drive like an old man. Pulling my fiver it never sees more than a 65 mph max speed, and most times I am on secondary roads at 55 to 60 mph. With the heavier pin weight trailer I know I'd be much more comfortable with a DRW truck, having owned three 5.9 CTD DRW in the past. I am about to pull the trigger on ordering a 3500 DRW Laramie, but had be waffling on getting one with the HO CTD just to be able to have the Aisin transmission. Seeing the whopping differences in MPGs you guys have posted now has me second guessing myself. I'm half tempted to get chassis cab model to get the SO engine - which is plenty enough for me - and be able to get the Aisin transmission too.

I know - there is the train of thought that if one wants a HD truck, then stop worrying about mileage. Upshot of the matter is that I'm gonna pay an arm and a leg for what will obviously wind up be a 23 year model build, then I need to look at mileage too in the big picture. Anyway I respect the opinions of the forum members here and wanted to see if anyone wanted to weigh in - no pun intended

Lee

what gear ratio are you considering for the HO? The 4.10 gears really take a bite out of your MPG at highway speeds. At 65-70 over 3,023 miles, my last trip, I averaged 9.2 MPG pulling 16k of enclosed car trailer. 12k on the trailer axles, 4k on the drive axle. Add 100 gallons of fuel, another 800 lbs, and my spouse and dog, both pretty trim. This is on the low end of what I normally get but consistent. My truck and trailer tires are meticulously inflated to the spec for max load, I am happy to take it easy on grades, I only do a hard passing charges when I have to, and acceleration on onramps is pretty moderate.

This is just an opinion but based on 50k miles on this one trailer, anytime I am moving above 2k RPM my mileage goes to hell. If I am 1,800 RPM my mileage is in a sweet spot. I have though about upsizing my tires just to get closer to an effective 3.80 gear ratio.

 

[ETX Ram]

what gear ratio are you considering for the HO? The 4.10 gears really take a bite out of your MPG at highway speeds. At 65-70 over 3,023 miles, my last trip, I averaged 9.2 MPG pulling 16k of enclosed car trailer. 12k on the trailer axles, 4k on the drive axle. Add 100 gallons of fuel, another 800 lbs, and my spouse and dog, both pretty trim. This is on the low end of what I normally get but consistent. My truck and trailer tires are meticulously inflated to the spec for max load, I am happy to take it easy on grades, I only do a hard passing charges when I have to, and acceleration on onramps is pretty moderate.

This is just an opinion but based on 50k miles on this one trailer, anytime I am moving above 2k RPM my mileage goes to hell. If I am 1,800 RPM my mileage is in a sweet spot. I have though about upsizing my tires just to get closer to an effective 3.80 gear ratio.

Lots of food for thought on this thread. Yes - I was leaning toward 3.73 gears for the new build due to the performance seen from the same gears in my SO 2500. I'm still at work for the next 3 weeks, so still mulling things over, but starting to lean toward a 3500 CCLB 4x4 DRW with the SO and 3.73's. Found a 2022 on a Oklahoma dealership last night that checked all the boxes for the most part other than color. Unit is evidently what we used to refer to as a "demonstrator model" for it has just under 1700 on the odometer. Unfortunately they were wanting +15k over MSRP. Guess they didn't think anyone would be smart enough to pull up the window sticker by VIN.

Drove semis for 13 years during my youth and I'm amazed at how much better and more easily the 370 / 850 SO engine pulls our fifth wheel compared to some of the loads of hay I had to pull with my 05 5.9 CTD dually and 32' heavy equipment gooseneck. Last trip was up in Arkansas in very hilly country and +100º temps. Watching my gauges I was pretty much convinced that the transmission temp gauge wasn't functioning since it never moved off of 165º even one degree. Saw a handful of 6º grades and a couple of 7's. Eventually I pulled over at a rest area for a break and equipment check. When I got back I noticed right away that the transmission temp had went up to 172º while idling. Within 3 miles after getting back on the road, the temp went right back down to 165º and stayed there. Pretty impressed with the 68RFE transmission and cooling system overall. I too had read a lot of horror stories about the 68RFE until one of the members here pointed out that those failures almost always coincided with non-stock configurations from tuning or tires. I checked and came to the same conclusion for the most part.

Honestly I'm only wanting the DRW truck for piece of mind and a bit more stability. I'll be checking on the price increases on the 2023 models when I get back home and see one of our local dealerships. Sales guy will probably get miffed when I tell him / her that I only want to deal with their fleet specialist. Don't much care about ruffling feathers though.

Appreciate the replies and inputs from the forum members here. Gave me lots to think about on points I had not considered.

Lee