Hitch Weight vs Payload

[fuchsroehre]

Your payload is your truck's weight subtracted from 10,000 lbs. It's a legal issue to be classified as a 3/4 ton pickup. The only reason a competitor 's equivalent 2500 can have a higher payload is due to having a lower curb weight. The bigger the cab and the more options you have all add to the weight of the truck. If you want a 2500 with a higher payload, stick to a regular cab Tradesman. Modern trucks are heavy, mainly because they are larger and offer more luxury options than the typical pickup from 10 years ago. It's simply the way consumers have pushed the market.

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Not sure if you meant it that way, but:
What I have noticed is that the GVWR of Ford's and GM's 3/4 ton trucks is >11,000lbs. They also weigh about 8k lbs but that gives them 3k lbs payload ratings.

To drisso88:
There must be toy haulers which are not 5th wheels. They probably also have less drag because they do not build that high.
And if it needs to be a 5th wheel, aren't there some with roughly 2k lbs pin weight? It would "feel" better if you could be within limits, at least on paper.
Did you ever talk to a 5th wheel sales person? Do they care about the pin weight detail?

 

[Jsboening]

I was looking at Grand Design travel trailers with a garage the other night seemed like a reasonable alternative to a fifth wheel.

 

[DougB]

Mega has larger GVWR and rear axle ratio?

Yes, larger GVWR. Data for 2021 MY here. Don’t think anything has changed for ‘22.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/chryslermedia.iconicweb.com/mediasite/specs/2021_RAM_2500_3500_HD_TowingChartevlal4hu4iu465hrhh9udegr4.pdf

 

[jetrinka]

Yes, larger GVWR. Data for 2021 MY here. Don’t think anything has changed for ‘22.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/chryslermedia.iconicweb.com/mediasite/specs/2021_RAM_2500_3500_HD_TowingChartevlal4hu4iu465hrhh9udegr4.pdf

Interesting. Makes the Mega even more attractive

 

[Brutal_HO]

With the Ram 2500 6.7s the issue is always limited payload. GM and Ford have increased their payload in their 3/4 ton trucks to around 3000lbs. Ram is lagging.
I don't think that you are going to be able to load the Toyhauler to reduce the pin weight to below your payload capacity.

Not sure if you meant it that way, but:
What I have noticed is that the GVWR of Ford's and GM's 3/4 ton trucks is >11,000lbs. They also weigh about 8k lbs but that gives them 3k lbs payload ratings.

To drisso88:
There must be toy haulers which are not 5th wheels. They probably also have less drag because they do not build that high.
And if it needs to be a 5th wheel, aren't there some with roughly 2k lbs pin weight? It would "feel" better if you could be within limits, at least on paper.
Did you ever talk to a 5th wheel sales person? Do they care about the pin weight detail?

GM is optional GVWR 11,300 - adds 1,000lbs. It's not standard. Their base payload is going to be slightly higher with a lighter engine.

I don't think F250 has a GVWR over 10K (maybe that changed recently?), but they do offer a derated F350 to 10K.

 

[jetrinka]

“De-rated F350” just sounds soooo wrong

 

[Brutal_HO]

“De-rated F350” just sounds soooo wrong

Ram offers a derated 10K GVWR 3500 CC too. Keeps it out of CDL territory for some operators.

 

[Wileykid]

Also, I've heard that if you want to reduce your tongue weight, put stuff in the garage. Any experience with that? If I always kept my side by side in the garage whenn I tow, would that release enough weight on the tongue to make it work?

Toy haulers are designed to be pin heavy, that is offset by putting in the toys. One thing to be cautious about, is you do want to be around the 20%+ pin weight area. Much less than that, and you are possibly introducing sway issue's. I have to fill my grey tanks and put a lot of weight in the front of my toy hauler to get to 18-19% pin weight. Less than that, and I have had some small sway issues at times (36' toy hauler).

Edit: Just to add, this is for a 5th wheel, TT you shoot for an approximate 13% hitch weight.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Toy haulers are designed to be pin heavy, that is offset by putting in the toys. One thing to be cautious about, is you do want to be around the 20%+ pin weight area. Much less than that, and you are possibly introducing sway issue's. I have to fill my grey tanks and put a lot of weight in the front of my toy hauler to get to 18-19% pin weight. Less than that, and I have had some small sway issues at times (36' toy hauler).

Edit: Just to add, this is for a 5th wheel, TT you shoot for an approximate 13% hitch weight.

You are not getting sway with a 5th wheel if anything its just wind turbulence

 

[OneZeroFive]

I was looking at Grand Design travel trailers with a garage the other night seemed like a reasonable alternative to a fifth wheel.

We've had our Momentum 21G since 2019 and have loved it. Built well in the realm of toy haulers and has served our needs perfectly. Only issue is we need a bigger one now!

 

[Brutal_HO]

You are not getting sway with a 5th wheel if anything its just wind turbulence

If you take weight off the trailer nose and truck rear axle, it's tail wagging the dog. No different than any other pull. Get nose high, get light in the front and you introduce problems.

 

[DougB]

I don't think F250 has a GVWR over 10K (maybe that changed recently?), but they do offer a derated F350 to 10K.

Ford F250 doesn't offer as simple of choose your GVWR as I think GM does. It's buried in the HCTP (High Capacity Towing Pkg) and raises GVWR from 10k to 10,800. Exactly why their F250 6.7 diesels have a more respectable payload around 2600-2900lbs. Ram would have similar numbers with 10,800 GVWR. Granted, there may be some component changes with the extra 800bs GVWR but I think many folks would opt for this on a Ram 2500. I think Ram does not do this as they are afraid 3500 sales would drop. Hoping they offer this in '23.

I might have gone 3500 MC if the GVWR was not 12,300. Hooking up a 14k gooseneck would immediately put that over the 26,001 GCWR limit and in TX that means Class A Non-CDL license. The 3500 CCSB at 11,800 is a sweet spot for that type of trailer and 5ers around same GVWR and you'll stay out of the special license zone. So I'll use my 2500 for a 14k gooseneck instead and just ensure not over F/RAWR.

 

[raven_dt]

Ford F250 doesn't offer as simple of choose your GVWR as I think GM does. It's buried in the HCTP (High Capacity Towing Pkg) and raises GVWR from 10k to 10,800. Exactly why their F250 6.7 diesels have a more respectable payload around 2600-2900lbs. Ram would have similar numbers with 10,800 GVWR. Granted, there may be some component changes with the extra 800bs GVWR but I think many folks would opt for this on a Ram 2500. I think Ram does not do this as they are afraid 3500 sales would drop. Hoping they offer this in '23.

I might have gone 3500 MC if the GVWR was not 12,300. Hooking up a 14k gooseneck would immediately put that over the 26,001 GCWR limit and in TX that means Class A Non-CDL license. The 3500 CCSB at 11,800 is a sweet spot for that type of trailer and 5ers around same GVWR and you'll stay out of the special license zone. So I'll use my 2500 for a 14k gooseneck instead and just ensure not over F/RAWR.

I believe that the F250 Camper Package (only $160 ! )option gets you over 10000lbs GVWR.

 

[Jacob]

If the toyhauler is 14,300 lbs dry realistically its probably close to 15k with all your crap. Then add your atvs or whatever and your getting close to your 16,700 lb tow capacity.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

If you take weight off the trailer nose and truck rear axle, it's tail wagging the dog. No different than any other pull. Get nose high, get light in the front and you introduce problems.

Yes i know that but you would almost never get light enough on the front end to do that the reason you can get sway on a TT is because the pivot point is so far behind the rear axle

 

[Wileykid]

Yes i know that but you would almost never get light enough on the front end to do that the reason you can get sway on a TT is because the pivot point is so far behind the rear axle

All I can say, is when I was around 16% pin weight, the trailer was swaying. Call it what you want, including wind turbulence inducing it, the tail was wagging the dog until I was over 18% pin weight. A dually may be fine with the lighter weight with the amount of rubber on the ground, but not the SRW without that additional weight.

If you say the wind turbulence could be the cause, how come it stops with the higher pin weight?

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

All I can say, is when I was around 16% pin weight, the trailer was swaying. Call it what you want, including wind turbulence inducing it, the tail was wagging the dog until I was over 18% pin weight. A dually may be fine with the lighter weight with the amount of rubber on the ground, but not the SRW without that additional weight.

If you say the wind turbulence could be the cause, how come it stops with the higher pin weight?

How nose up is the trailer?

 

[CdnHO]

If the toyhauler is 14,300 lbs dry realistically its probably close to 15k with all your crap. Then add your atvs or whatever and your getting close to your 16,700 lb tow capacity.

Only 700 pounds (without toys) is not much crap. You would be surprised how fast crap like dishes, clothes, tools, daily living stuff add up. And it keeps accumulating as time goes on. I recently weighed my fiver and almost puked when I calculated that I had 4700 pounds of "crap" in the darn thing. We do full time but need to seriously look at removing non essential stuff. I am also 700 pounds over the truck's GVWR. Everything handles fine but I do like to stay close to the numbers.

 

[Wileykid]

How nose up is the trailer?

None, it is level.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

None, it is level.

That make no sense how a few hundred lbs makes a difference when you still have over 1000lbs on top of the rear axle… im gonna assume its a poorly designed axle placement/layout if thats the case… in all my years towing many different 5th wheels i have never seen or heard what you are experience unless the trailer is very nose high