High Output (AISIN) vs Standard (68rfe)

[thecastle]

I'll check out the reflash, thanks for mentioning. I read the TSB and it pretty much describes the behaviors I'm experiencing. Sometimes when creeping into the driveway the 2-1 downshift at light throttles is abrupt enough my wife will say, did you run over something? Also the harsh 2-3 and 3-4 shift while towing happens, though I usually put it in tow haul and the transmission behaves better. SInce mine is a 2019, I may have to pay to get the transmission reflashed.

 

[thecastle]

I scheduled my truck into "service" to have the TSB performed, re-flash for the shifting The only question is who pays? I would say the shifting issues aren't highly annoying, but they are noticeable. Even to my wife, who thinks I ran over something when the truck clunks on a 2-1 shift creeping up the driveway ;-)

 

[downsc123]

I scheduled my truck into "service" to have the TSB performed, re-flash for the shifting The only question is who pays? I would say the shifting issues aren't highly annoying, but they are noticeable. Even to my wife, who thinks I ran over something when the truck clunks on a 2-1 shift creeping up the driveway ;-)

I am interested in if they make you pay or not - I called RAM Cares and asked if my WIN was on that TSB and was told it was not so the fix would not apply to me

 

[thecastle]

I called ram "cares" and the yawning/sleepy call center person put me on hold and when he answered back said he couldn't figure out if the TSB applied or not, and to go to the dealer and have them figure it out. I went to the dealer yesterday, they charged $190 for the update. I argued a little as the TSB said .3 hours of labor, which at the stealer rate of $225 should be $67.50+shop fees . Anyway after 2 hours of waiting and idling my truck they said its done but take no responsibility for the outcome as I refused diagnostics, which would take 2-3 days to complete and cost additional $$$.

So far so good, trans seems to behave fine. Tried to trigger its problem areas, light throttle on/off low speeds. Hard 3-4 shift and it seems to be shifting noticeably smoother. I could tell right away a difference in behaviors'. Do I think its worth paying for? That depends if it improves trans life and the issues annoy you. I had to put the truck in storage (work truck) yesterday so I didn't drive it more than 25 miles. But its going out for a 700 mile tow to a work site on Sunday, so I'll update if this really addresses all the issues above.

Now if only they would have fixed my crappy AC and perform that TSB. Muzzy fixed mine.

 

[downsc123]

crazy that they have a know problem, issue the fix (TSB) and then make the person that bought the product pay for the fix

 

[heyguy]

I would think it would be covered under the powertrain warranty so shouldn't make you pay for anything.

 

[thecastle]

It wasn't and I paid, kinda what I expect from the dealer experience. Your dealer might treat you better, but my experienc with ram dealers had been decidedly sub par.

 

[AH64ID]

For TSB’s they are only covered if the vehicle is under warranty, so if you’re out of warranty you have to pay to have them applied.

 

[downsc123]

For TSB’s they are only covered if the vehicle is under warranty, so if you’re out of warranty you have to pay to have them applied.

And then only if your vehicle VIN is listed as affected - so they would not cover my 1 year old truck

 

[AH64ID]

And then only if your vehicle VIN is listed as affected - so they would not cover my 1 year old truck

Correct, as they put an applicability range on the TSB. Usually trucks outside the range of the TSB don't have the effected hardware or software.

 

[thecastle]

So I'm going to report back, after several thousands of miles of driving and towing. The transmission clearly shift better. No more feeling like I ran over a curb at slow speeds and much smoother shifting when cold. Especially while towing none of that 3-4 bump I used to get while towing and the transmission is warming up. So would I say this is worth doing if you have to pay for it? Yes, if your bothered by the tranmissions behavior. Yes, if you plan to sell the truck later as I suspect people who don't know the rough shifting nature of the transmission might suspect you have a bad one. They'll be concerned on a test drive. Me currently I plan to drive the truck until the wheels fall off.

 

[daemonic3]

As someone who is researching what I want to order on a 3500, I read through this whole thread. I'm going with 3500 because I don't ever want to run out of payload again, and I test drove one with air suspension and I honestly don't know what the internet complaints are about unloaded stiff driving (maybe that's for non air suspension brands?). I absolutely could use one as my daily driver (this is NOT just a tow vehicle). So a 3500 over a 2500 it is!

Now the question for me is SO vs HO. For size reasons, I am limited to the tiniest HD truck I can get - a Ram crew cab short bed. My current brand new trailer is 34' and 8200#, with a mere 1050# tongue. I will never have to worry about payload again! Given that a 2500 with SO would have been completely fine for me pull/stop wise, the 3500 with SO would check all my same boxes. It *seems* like the HO is overkill for me when really all I want is a 2500 with 3k payload. It might be cool to have the HO to say "I don't even feel a trailer behind me!" but not really necessary (I think?).

Since I am limited to a 31gal tank, MPG is one thing I'm very interested in. From this thread, it looks like (unloaded) MPG in the SO will be roughly 3MPG better, at least hwy driving. That could mean 90 miles more on a tank, not bad! Now how about towing difference? I am used to ~10MPG in my F150 Powerboost with a 30gal so anymore more is a huge bonus. My rough guesses are ~12MPG with a SO towing and maybe ~13MPG with a HO or are they about the same once loaded up? Any experience in this area is welcome! According to user data from Fuelly, average fillups are ~2-3MPG better from 2500->3500 6.7L Diesel. BUT - the 3500 data doesn't distinguish HO vs SO even though HO is the majority, and neither of them distinguish towing fillups vs non-towing fillups.



Lastly, I'm concerned my wife may get excited about "upgrading" to a 5er in the future due to the truck capability (dammit, there goes my truck bed!). I cannot imagine us needing a huge destination trailer, but perhaps something in the 10-13k range, with pin weight <2500#. Is the SO still capable and ok with this? (forget the short bed 5er argument for a sec, I'm curious about the engine) According to the specs, the HO would only "buy" you ~4000# of "capability" in a crew cab shorty but I'm more interested in if the SO experience will be miserable or not a problem.

NOTE: The towing capability by VIN link worked 2 weeks ago and now doesn't. At the time I was looking up VINs of Limited/Longhorn CCSB's and saw payloads >3k which was really all I was looking at at the time. I wanted to again check a few SO vs HO units by scanning the nationwide inventory to look at the true GCVWR's and the damn tool is dead

 

[AH64ID]

As someone who is researching what I want to order on a 3500, I read through this whole thread. I'm going with 3500 because I don't ever want to run out of payload again, and I test drove one with air suspension and I honestly don't know what the internet complaints are about unloaded stiff driving (maybe that's for non air suspension brands?). I absolutely could use one as my daily driver (this is NOT just a tow vehicle). So a 3500 over a 2500 it is!

Now the question for me is SO vs HO. For size reasons, I am limited to the tiniest HD truck I can get - a Ram crew cab short bed. My current brand new trailer is 34' and 8200#, with a mere 1050# tongue. I will never have to worry about payload again! Given that a 2500 with SO would have been completely fine for me pull/stop wise, the 3500 with SO would check all my same boxes. It *seems* like the HO is overkill for me when really all I want is a 2500 with 3k payload. It might be cool to have the HO to say "I don't even feel a trailer behind me!" but not really necessary (I think?).

Since I am limited to a 31gal tank, MPG is one thing I'm very interested in. From this thread, it looks like (unloaded) MPG in the SO will be roughly 3MPG better, at least hwy driving. That could mean 90 miles more on a tank, not bad! Now how about towing difference? I am used to ~10MPG in my F150 Powerboost with a 30gal so anymore more is a huge bonus. My rough guesses are ~12MPG with a SO towing and maybe ~13MPG with a HO or are they about the same once loaded up? Any experience in this area is welcome! According to user data from Fuelly, average fillups are ~2-3MPG better from 2500->3500 6.7L Diesel. BUT - the 3500 data doesn't distinguish HO vs SO even though HO is the majority, and neither of them distinguish towing fillups vs non-towing fillups.

View attachment 69042 View attachment 69043

Lastly, I'm concerned my wife may get excited about "upgrading" to a 5er in the future due to the truck capability (dammit, there goes my truck bed!). I cannot imagine us needing a huge destination trailer, but perhaps something in the 10-13k range, with pin weight <2500#. Is the SO still capable and ok with this? (forget the short bed 5er argument for a sec, I'm curious about the engine) According to the specs, the HO would only "buy" you ~4000# of "capability" in a crew cab shorty but I'm more interested in if the SO experience will be miserable or not a problem.

NOTE: The towing capability by VIN link worked 2 weeks ago and now doesn't. At the time I was looking up VINs of Limited/Longhorn CCSB's and saw payloads >3k which was really all I was looking at at the time. I wanted to again check a few SO vs HO units by scanning the nationwide inventory to look at the true GCVWR's and the damn tool is dead

Just look at the tow charts and you will be able to see the difference in GCWR (not GCVWR).

As for mileage there isn't a fuelly also differentiate between SRW and DRW so the data is skewed towards the 2500.

The SO has the potential to be more fuel efficient, but at the end of the day I'm not sure the difference is enough to be concerned with.

I'd go HO, but I'm biased and I don't want a 68RFE.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/chryslermedia.iconicweb.com/mediasite/specs/2024_RAM_2500_3500_HD_Towing.pdf

 

[daemonic3]

Just look at the tow charts and you will be able to see the difference in GCWR (not GCVWR).

As for mileage there isn't a fuelly also differentiate between SRW and DRW so the data is skewed towards the 2500.

The SO has the potential to be more fuel efficient, but at the end of the day I'm not sure the difference is enough to be concerned with.

I'd go HO, but I'm biased and I don't want a 68RFE.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/chryslermedia.iconicweb.com/mediasite/specs/2024_RAM_2500_3500_HD_Towing.pdf

Excellent points, and great guide that I hadn't seen before! It basically hilites what I had deduced in that the HO only adds ~4k of "capability" on a CCSB due to other limitations (like SRW/DRW, bed length, rear GAWR) being the limiters. So the decision will be all about the "experience" of daily driving and towing, not my max capability. Much to think about!

 

[elephantrider]

my 2500 mediocre output yanks the rv around fine. it's 38' with 1.1k tw. I get anywhere from 9 to 11.

i would not pull any larger size 5th wheel with it. otherwise the 68rfe in tow mode along with the eb, works great. I'd have a dually for a 5th wheel.

 

[daemonic3]

Well, this is interesting. Has anyone heard that as of January 1st that orders cannot be placed for the HO Cummins in California? Dealer I'm discussing placing an order with says that any build before Dec31 they can still sell but they cannot build any more for delivery in California until the next model year. This is a CARB (California Air Resource Board) law that took effect in the new year. Obviously if this is true, it makes my SO/HO decision easy.

PLEASE NOTE: This is not an invitation to make political statements, I'm just asking if anyone knows the above is true. Trying to google it comes up with a lot of lawsuits and settlements between Cummins and CARB but nothing specific about restricting current orders.

 

[gimmie11s]

Ive owned SO and now HO and I can tell you -- if you have the choice, buy the HO/Aisin. The power difference is very noticeable.

 

[The1adman]

Ive owned SO and now HO and I can tell you -- if you have the choice, buy the HO/Aisin. The power difference is very noticeable.

Same experience here.

 

[AH64ID]

Well, this is interesting. Has anyone heard that as of January 1st that orders cannot be placed for the HO Cummins in California? Dealer I'm discussing placing an order with says that any build before Dec31 they can still sell but they cannot build any more for delivery in California until the next model year. This is a CARB (California Air Resource Board) law that took effect in the new year. Obviously if this is true, it makes my SO/HO decision easy.

PLEASE NOTE: This is not an invitation to make political statements, I'm just asking if anyone knows the above is true. Trying to google it comes up with a lot of lawsuits and settlements between Cummins and CARB but nothing specific about restricting current orders.

I have heard about the C&C's being restricted in California, but not the HO's even thou they share the same transmission.

I'd order out of state if thats a loophole.

 

[tchur1]

Well, this is interesting. Has anyone heard that as of January 1st that orders cannot be placed for the HO Cummins in California? Dealer I'm discussing placing an order with says that any build before Dec31 they can still sell but they cannot build any more for delivery in California until the next model year. This is a CARB (California Air Resource Board) law that took effect in the new year. Obviously if this is true, it makes my SO/HO decision easy.

PLEASE NOTE: This is not an invitation to make political statements, I'm just asking if anyone knows the above is true. Trying to google it comes up with a lot of lawsuits and settlements between Cummins and CARB but nothing specific about restricting current orders.

Not sure where you live but I live in Lake Tahoe and have had 2 great ordering experiences with Dolan Ram in Reno, NV. Each time was able to get 10%+ off MSRP (likely more now given the current market). If you are close I would recommend them.

As far as your initial question on HO vs SO. I tow a pretty similar size load to your (boat is about 9-10k loaded, ~1k tw) and love the HO. I bought it for the AISIN vs the 68rfe, even though the 68 is plenty for my needs. The 68 can struggle under load at low speeds and given where I live I didnt want to worry about that. I love the AISIN, have no complaints, and would order it again in a heartbeat.