CP4 to CP-ISB21S3 (revised CP3) change for 2021 6.7L Diesel Trucks -- Merged Threads

[MEGA HO]

Thanks for the update but they didn't say anything new they didn't say already, just another vague statement and I agree with Epsilon Plus. Drag it a little more and '19+ will start coming out of warranty, and then (a big maybe) issue a new TSB to replace failed pumps with CP3 version for those still under warranty and leave others behind. Is that the master plan??

 

[Brutal_HO]

Everyone can speculate until the cows come home. Other than increasing the page count of the thread, does it really serve any purpose other than allowing you to vent/rant?

Setting aside for a moment the merits of the viewer traffic generated by this thread that's already been covered, perhaps organizing a letter writing campaign to TFLTruck and other rags might be a better use of the time expended by some instead of continuing to to beat the nearly dead horse.

 

[UglyViking]

Everyone can speculate until the cows come home. Other than increasing the page count of the thread, does it really serve any purpose other than allowing you to vent/rant?

Setting aside for a moment the merits of the viewer traffic generated by this thread that's already been covered, perhaps organizing a letter writing campaign to TFLTruck and other rags might be a better use of the time expended by some instead of continuing to to beat the nearly dead horse.

I hear what you're saying Brutal but I don't view it as an either/or, and to be frank places like TFLtruck are so scared of losing privileges with the manufactures there is almost no chance they would call out RAM in any meaningful way. Additionally, I think it's very important that this conversation continues. This is a single thread that contains over 1k responses about the CP4 issue, and according to the dates anyway, it's only been around since Dec of last year. I know there are other threads that have died or been deleted but I feel that RAM is def aware of this forum and this particular thread. I'm sure they are well aware that this group of guys and gals is vocal about their love, or hate, or RAM trucks and are the category of people you most want to keep brand loyal. They likely also realize that with the rise of google searches prior to buying a vehicle this may be seen by potential buyers, and with no action taken it may lead them to another brand.

Long and short of it, outside of keeping the mods a little busy I see absolutely no reason that we shouldn't continue posting here. If nothing else guys need a place to yap about how things have changed and they miss the good ole days of the CP3 and all that.

 

[kxnate]

I don't own a Cummins anymore, so this does not affect me. But what I don't understand is the misplaced outrage at RAM??? It should be directed at Cummins and Bosch. I guarantee you that Cummins is the one that has to ultimately stand behind their engine, and Cummins is the one deciding what components go on THEIR engine.....not RAM. There are way more parties involved in coming up with a solution than just RAM. Things move very slowly in large corporate world......now times that by at least 3 parties involved.

 

[Epsilon Plus]

RAM forced the CP4 on Cummins. Their other ISBs continued to ship with CP3 pumps. Plus, the engines are purchased, as spec'd by RAM, and then installed. It is ultimately a RAM product. We don't go after DANA/Spicer or Getrag or Yomamaseatthread Company, we go after the one who sold the whole package.

 

[kxnate]

RAM forced the CP4 on Cummins.

Do you have proof of that statement?

 

[MEGA HO]

Do you have proof of that statement?

Somewhere on this site it was already explained that it was RAM's decision to go with this pump. I'm to busy/lazy to search for it but it's out here somewhere.
Something to do with how RAM wanted to achieve certain HP/TQ numbers and the previous gen pump wouldn't put up...

 

[kxnate]

Something to do with how RAM wanted to achieve certain HP/TQ numbers and the previous gen pump wouldn't put up...

I don't doubt one bit that RAM told Cummins - Hey Cummins, here is the HP and TQ we would like to see out of our next "HO" launch.

But, I would doubt RAM said - you have to use the Bosch CP4 pump to make those #'s.

I would imagine, and maybe I'm all wet, but I would imagine that Cummins then said - hey Mr. Bosch engineer, those crazy sumb's over at RAM want us to crank out a reliable 1000ft lb of torque out of our engine for their pickup truck!! What fuel delivery system do you have that will support that??

 

[Epsilon Plus]

It wasn't about power #s. The CP-ISBS1S3 and no-tune CP3 conversions by S&S and II prove that.

It was a bean counter decision. Aluminum body vs steel, lower component cost. Cheaper overall. Multiply the cost savings by 100s of thousands of engines/trucks.

What they didn't account for (stupidly) is the higher failure rate vs LML/6.7 Scorpion by overdriving the pump 1.5x.

All of this has been covered in this 56 page thread. Welcome to the party. Read up.

 

[MikeXM]

I don't doubt one bit that RAM told Cummins - Hey Cummins, here is the HP and TQ we would like to see out of our next "HO" launch.

But, I would doubt RAM said - you have to use the Bosch CP4 pump to make those #'s.

I would imagine, and maybe I'm all wet, but I would imagine that Cummins then said - hey Mr. Bosch engineer, those crazy sumb's over at RAM want us to crank out a reliable 1000ft lb of torque out of our engine for their pickup truck!! What fuel delivery system do you have that will support that??

Well... I guess they made the wrong decision as they are now back shipping with the renamed CP3!
So it looks like the CP3 was capable of pumping those figures after all... The CP4 was just a cost saving move. It has to come from RAM.

 

[MEGA HO]

Well of course the CP3 could provide these number and more, as was proven multiple times by all the tuners cranking out the insane HP/TQ numbers out of it but was it within the CP3 design parameters? Dunno... I for once know the stock CP3 isn't capable of the fuel line pressures the CP4 provides. CP3 conversion kits are using modified CP3 and I recall reading somwhere something like tuners were not able to achieve the desired fuel line pressure... Don't know much details on this topic and I don't know anything about the ISB-21 but it has to be a modified CP3.

 

[Epsilon Plus]

The CP3 is a radial-piston pump that can supply up to 29,000 psi in some applications and is perhaps the most well known and most modified high-pressure pump on the market.

By far, the easiest pump to access when upgrading or replacing one is those found on inline Cummins engines. Located right on the side of the block, the geardriven CP3s flow slightly less than Duramax-specific units, but volume is still sufficient for making good power.

Next is the CP4, which is also made by Bosch. Although it has a higher number designation, the CP4 actually flows about 20 percent less fuel than its younger brother, the CP3. Found on ’11-to-present Power Stroke and Duramax engines, the CP4 is a more advanced pump despite flowing less fuel, with external high-pressure circuits and a maximum pressure of 29,000 psi.

Sauce:

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/1509-understanding-modifying-high-pressure-fuel-pumps-for-cummins-duramax-and-power-stroke-engines/

 

[kxnate]

It wasn't about power #s. The CP-ISBS1S3 and no-tune CP3 conversions by S&S and II prove that.

It was a bean counter decision. Aluminum body vs steel, lower component cost. Cheaper overall. Multiply the cost savings by 100s of thousands of engines/trucks.

What they didn't account for (stupidly) is the higher failure rate vs LML/6.7 Scorpion by overdriving the pump 1.5x.

All of this has been covered in this 56 page thread. Welcome to the party. Read up.

I have read up on most of these 56 pages and all I can see is a bunch of people speculating that RAM pulls Cummins strings with absolutely no proof of it. Do any of you work for RAM, do any of you work for Cummins??, And are that high up in the food chain that you are truly in the know of how and why the decision to switch to the CP4 was made??

I still highly doubt that RAM tells Cummins what components to use on their engines and Cummins just bows down and obeys.

Maybe it was a cost cutting measure, but maybe it was Cummins doing the cost cutting to make a little more off of every engine they sell to RAM.

I ask again, does anyone have any proof that RAM forced Cummins to use the CP4 pump.

 

[ownz0rjoo]

I have read up on most of these 56 pages and all I can see is a bunch of people speculating that RAM pulls Cummins strings with absolutely no proof of it. Do any of you work for RAM, do any of you work for Cummins??, And are that high up in the food chain that you are truly in the know of how and why the decision to switch to the CP4 was made??

I still highly doubt that RAM tells Cummins what components to use on their engines and Cummins just bows down and obeys.

Maybe it was a cost cutting measure, but maybe it was Cummins doing the cost cutting to make a little more off of every engine they sell to RAM.

I ask again, does anyone have any proof that RAM forced Cummins to use the CP4 pump.

Honestly, why does that matter? RAM is who we bought the truck from, RAM is who warranties it. We should be taking this problem up with RAM. If the grocery store sells you bad meat, do you show up at farmers house to get your money back?

The moral of the story is, we don't have a good answer from RAM on how they are going to support us, the consumer. Replacing a known bad pump with a known bad pump doesn't sit well with the majority of us who bought these 70k+ dollar trucks for reliability and towing.

 

[kxnate]

Honestly, why does that matter? RAM is who we bought the truck from, RAM is who warranties it. We should be taking this problem up with RAM. If the grocery store sells you bad meat, do you show up at farmers house to get your money back?

The moral of the story is, we don't have a good answer from RAM on how they are going to support us, the consumer. Replacing a known bad pump with a known bad pump doesn't sit well with the majority of us who bought these 70k+ dollar trucks for reliability and towing.

I understand that RAM sold the truck and RAM warranties the truck. But, you have to look at the big picture, there are more parties involved in coming up with a solution. I am sure the costs associated with fixing these failures are all getting thrown back at Bosch and Cummins from RAM, and I bet that they are all standing around pointing fingers at each other as to whose fault and liability it is. And like I said previously, nothing moves fast in big corporate world.

Anyways, I understand it sucks for you guys with these trucks to have either had the breakdown and have been without your truck for months on end, or are on pins and needles just waiting for the breakdown to come. But, I still just don't think with all the parties involved in this situation that the blame all boils down to RAM, nor is a solution going to come solely from RAM. All parties are going to have to come together and face fault and agree to a solution. That obviously is taking a long time, and it may honestly never happen, and if it doesn't I think it comes down on RAM, Cummins, and Bosch. Not just RAM solely. Good luck with your trucks guys, I hope they hold together for you.

 

[UglyViking]

I have read up on most of these 56 pages and all I can see is a bunch of people speculating that RAM pulls Cummins strings with absolutely no proof of it. Do any of you work for RAM, do any of you work for Cummins??, And are that high up in the food chain that you are truly in the know of how and why the decision to switch to the CP4 was made??

I still highly doubt that RAM tells Cummins what components to use on their engines and Cummins just bows down and obeys.

Maybe it was a cost cutting measure, but maybe it was Cummins doing the cost cutting to make a little more off of every engine they sell to RAM.

I ask again, does anyone have any proof that RAM forced Cummins to use the CP4 pump.

Agree with what @ownz0rjoo stated, but further than that there are a few things to note.

None of us have the inside scoop on who ordered the CP4, but I don't see a valid reason why Cummins would equip RAM trucks with a CP4 while continuing to only offer the CP3 in their crate engines. It's also not true that the CP4 was required to make those HP/TQ numbers, as given by the fact that A) the aftermarket has been more than doubling stock numbers for years and B) they reverted to a CP3 only 2 model years after introduction.

From what I've read and gathered the view was that FCA wanted to use the CP4 due to supposedly higher MPG with it as well as a huge cost savings. It could have been Cummins that speced the CP4, but again I would ask why it's not on any of their other engines?

The fact of it is that we will likely not know for quite some time who made the call, if we ever learn. It's likely not until a FCA/Cummins engineer leaves the company and decides to share that info that we would learn it.

In the end, I don't care who screwed the pooch on this, only that FCA makes it right. If they need to foot the bill, charge back to Cummins, whatever.

 

[crawlex]

Hello Everyone! Our team has recently received an update regarding the C4 fuel pump concerns. We have a solution in progress and the fix can be expected by the end of third quarter. Again, we appreciate your patience at this time. As always, feel free to privately message our team with questions. We are here to help!

Hannah
Ram Cares

Speculation aside, I can only say what my experience as a consumer is. I bought a 2019 Ram diesel truck and was told by the Ram salesmen the truck had been upgraded from previous years; when in reality it had been downgraded with parts prone to catastrophic failure. There were still model year '18 trucks on the lot but I bought a '19 because I was told it was better...

As a consumer I feel like I was swindled into buying a truck that that doesn't stand up to Rams reputation for reliability, a truck that does not stand-up to Ram's reputation for low depreciation, and a truck that leaves me in fear of being stranded and stuck with the enormous bill.

Some may disagree and try to argue the facts, but all I can say is how I *feel* as a consumer, and that is ultimately what motivates my future purchases and recommendations to friends and family. I teach my kid that mistakes are okay, what matters is that you take responsibility for yourself and learn from them. If Ram takes responsibility for this misstep, and provides a meaningful pro-active fix for my truck; they have made a customer for life. If they don't take responsibility for this issue; they have lost a customer for life. As a consumer, that is all the power I have in this situation and I wont be bitter regardless of the outcome, sometimes relationships just don't work out, if that is the case I will move on to bigger and better things.

 

[exiledinaz]

I don't own a Cummins anymore, so this does not affect me. But what I don't understand is the misplaced outrage at RAM??? It should be directed at Cummins and Bosch. I guarantee you that Cummins is the one that has to ultimately stand behind their engine, and Cummins is the one deciding what components go on THEIR engine.....not RAM. There are way more parties involved in coming up with a solution than just RAM. Things move very slowly in large corporate world......now times that by at least 3 parties involved.

Cummins does not warranty the engine. That was direct from Cummins when I inquired about the CP4.

 

[RVTRKN]

Cummins does not warranty the engine. That was direct from Cummins when I inquired about the CP4.

I might be wrong, but Ram should get reimbursed from Cummins for engine failures under warranty. They may not warranty the complete repair, but they should get credit for engine.

 

[MikeXM]

all I can see is a bunch of people speculating that RAM pulls Cummins strings with absolutely no proof of it. Do any of you work for RAM, do any of you work for Cummins??, And are that high up in the food chain that you are truly in the know of how and why the decision to switch to the CP4 was made??

I ask again, does anyone have any proof that RAM forced Cummins to use the CP4 pump.

Fair point. We don't know and we should not speculate who asked who to do what.

(then the very next post)

I am sure the costs associated with fixing these failures are all getting thrown back at Bosch and Cummins from RAM

Wait what??? SO YOU KNOW now?

We can't speculate, but you can... Oh, okay I see how it is.

LMAO That is some funny s**t right there