6.7L Gas Cummins

[dtsequeira]

This would be cool if it comes to reality.

 

[Blythkd1]

No surprise. These diesel engine companies are going to have to look to other technologies if they want to survive. The libbys are hell bent on eliminating IC engines, diesels first. Diesel engine companies are probably wondering how much longer they'll be able to meet all the govt standards.

Also, if Cummins offers a feasible HD gas pickup engine, they could own all the engine business from the Ram side instead of just the diesels.

 

[DevilDodge]

7.6l and they would have my attention.

The 8.0l V10 screamed no replacement for displacement back in the 90s...lol

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

7.6l and they would have my attention.

The 8.0l V10 screamed no replacement for displacement back in the 90s...lol

I had one for a week as a loaner it was awful on fuel but the power was there

 

[DevilDodge]

I had one for a week as a loaner it was awful on fuel but the power was there

I have owned mine since 2009. It gets 10 doing about anything....16 if I can keep it in 5th gear on the highway. It is still my favorite truck. The 6.4l feels faster...but put that 488 cu in Magnum in first gear and let out the clutch...she pulls so beautifully at just idle.

 

[thecastle]

I think its about time someone built a turbocharged gas engine for the HD trucks. Too me it always seemed like a big gap in their lineup. Having a natural aspirated gas engine for the base engine, then offering a turbo diesel as the step-up engine left a lot of room between the two. Frankly Ford found a market for a step-up gas engine with the 7.3L v-8. I think ram could easily offer a 6.7 turbo gas engine for significantly less than the diesel, and I would never look back and buy another diesel. The thing that has kept diesels alive this point has been a lack of a credible gasoline alternative and turbocharging (for the power hungry). There is no reason you can't build a cheaper gas engine to have nearly diesel levels of torque. I'd be happy to give up oilly pumps and looking for DEF and loss of payload. Heck I wouldn't mind a hellcat motor, slightly detuned. Ever driven a non-turbo diesel, omg they are so pokey.

 

[jdefoe0424]

I think its about time someone built a turbocharged gas engine for the HD trucks. Too me it always seemed like a big gap in their lineup. Having a natural aspirated gas engine for the base engine, then offering a turbo diesel as the step-up engine left a lot of room between the two. Frankly Ford found a market for a step-up gas engine with the 7.3L v-8. I think ram could easily offer a 6.7 turbo gas engine for significantly less than the diesel, and I would never look back and buy another diesel. The thing that has kept diesels alive this point has been a lack of a credible gasoline alternative and turbocharging (for the power hungry). There is no reason you can't build a cheaper gas engine to have nearly diesel levels of torque. I'd be happy to give up oilly pumps and looking for DEF and loss of payload. Heck I wouldn't mind a hellcat motor, slightly detuned. Ever driven a non-turbo diesel, omg they are so pokey.

I'm not sure a turbo gas HD motor would be that much cheaper than a diesel really. You still need a turbo, intercooler, high pressure fuel pump, more expensive pistons and valves, cool-down water pump, bigger radiator and oil cooler etc. etc.
Maybe with enough volume it could split the price difference?
I could totally see Ford being the first one with their history of ecoboost, but it's hard to get the fleets on board with all that added complexity and potentially higher repair costs.

 

[thecastle]

I agree a turbocharged gas engine won’t be as inexpensive as a non-turbo. On the Ford F-150 the upgrade price to go from the non-turbo 3.3 v6 to the twin turbo 2.7 v6 is $1285. That data point would seem to indicate turbo charging isn’t that expensive. Then factor loosing the dpf and scr it seems like a no brainier. Btw a hpfp isn’t required for a turbo engine. You can use port fuel injection on a gas car.

I don’t think this changes my point a lot. I think it’s a major miss by the manufacturers to offer a turbo gas engine with the torque diesel owners like in their turbo diesel. Without quit as much torque and at a price less than diesel. There are a lot of people I think who would like a turbo gas motor but don’t want to jump to diesel.

Also hp will be significantly better than the diesels with that instant low end torque many diesel owners like.

 

[jdefoe0424]

I agree a turbocharged gas engine won’t be as inexpensive as a non-turbo. On the Ford F-150 the upgrade price to go from the non-turbo 3.3 v6 to the twin turbo 2.7 v6 is $1285. That data point would seem to indicate turbo charging isn’t that expensive. Then factor loosing the dpf and scr it seems like a no brainier. Btw a hpfp isn’t required for a turbo engine. You can use port fuel injection on a gas car.

I don’t think this changes my point a lot. I think it’s a major miss by the manufacturers to offer a turbo gas engine with the torque diesel owners like in their turbo diesel. Without quit as much torque and at a price less than diesel. There are a lot of people I think who would like a turbo gas motor but don’t want to jump to diesel.

Also hp will be significantly better than the diesels with that instant low end torque many diesel owners like.

And the 3.5 is a $2,700 option. The reason they can get that little of a price increase is because around 60% of F150 sales are ecoboost. That 60% is probably more than the total of all HD Ram sales every year. I would bet a HD turbo engine would be a $4,000+ option(Ford 7.3 is $2,000).
IMO if they're going to go turbo for efficiency, then they might as well go all the way and do DI too, or maybe go to mixed injection to continue getting the cleaning benefits. Chevy though has been doing it a long time and seems like they've gotten something figured out to avoid that issue.
I personally would rather see a plug-in hybrid so that short trips(20-30 miles total) could be done on all/mostly electric, but that also brings along other issues like fuel dilution and idle times etc. I predict Ford will be the first one there too.

HD trucks are all about fleets...that's the bottom line. Their desires are reliability, cost(purchase and service) and longevity, efficiency just is what it is and isn't a main thought.

 

[thecastle]

You hit on an important point that "truck" buyers are not a monolithic group. My observations are colored by the fact I live in Houston, TX and I'm a car/engine enthusiast and a business owner who has fleet trucks. Where I live most 2500 are just daily drivers with the bigger is better school of thought here, some think they're safer. Rarely are 2500s used in fleets or as tow vehicles, mostly they are just bigger daily drivers. 3500s are generally not fleet vehicles either here, but you do see some owner operator hot/shot drivers. 4500/5500s I almost never see them as daily drivers unless I'm in horse country.

Its the 4500/5500 that mostly end up in fleets. For my company's usage; I would not buy a diesel unless there is a clear business case that you can make money with them. When I look through my corporate lens; it's all about minimizing the cost to operate and maximizing time on road. A broken truck isn't rolling isn't making money, but a truck that never recoups the diesel tax is a poor investment as well. Gas would be my 1st choice for my corporate trucks. I have a Wi-Fi business where I own bucket trucks (fords). In my use case diesel doesn't offer a profit advantage, and its something most fleet owners know well. A hybrid would be interesting. More power isn't necessary, but reducing fuel consumption would be big. My trucks BTW are hybrids in the sense that the booms are battery powered and not PTO, they don't need the engine to idle.

For the 2500 daily driver crowd, the ones that are lifted with iron bull bumpers. I think they might like a high performance gas engine, the TRX seems to indicate there is a market for that. Which leaves more money for mods.

I think there is a market for both a hybrid in fleet use, and a turbo gas engine for those who use their truck as a daily driver/light duty tow vehicle who don't want to pay 10K for a diesel.

 

[Toyotaguy]

The biggest issue with a hybrid or smaller displacement turbo charged in an hd truck is the fact that they are big and heavy. The vehicle that effectively use these systems are light weight and optimized for unloaded efficiency.

The 7.3 ford engine is not designed to be efficient but I bet before ford designed a whole new engine they at least tested the 3.5 ecoboost in their hd truck. My guess is the saw that the efficiency wasn’t there and reliability was not up to par with a modernized big block style motor. If we’re talking about a large displacement turbo engine like this 6.7 turbo gas engine, then the only reason for this is because the government has made implementation of diesel for the consumer market either so cost prohibitive (we’re already paying a $10k premium for diesel power trains) or outright impossible with current technology (like micro stamping in the handgun market in California).

Ford also has the power boost variant of the 3.5 ecoboost. While a hybrid 7.3 might be a better fit for an hd style truck, I bet it’s the fear the consumer would shying away from a hybrid in an hd truck. There’s also the issue of battery weight, to get a battery with sufficient storage to make a meaningful impact on efficiency it would have a significant impact on the payload just like diesel ls in 3/4 ton trucks.

Full electric is probably the future for hd vehicles, either with battery or hydrogen generators, but we have a while for battery tech to provide the power density good enough to compete with current ice engines. I don’t know enough about hydrogen to comment on it fully, I know it still produces nox emissions and so maybe that’s why it being focused on more.


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[thecastle]

This is a bit of a side topic talking about smaller displacement engines that are turbocharged in a truck. We were talking about the possibility of a 6.7 gasoline engine, and potentially a turbo version. The Ecoboost line of engines were brought up to show how little cost turbocharging adds to a gasoline engine. When looking at the possibility of a 6.7 turbo gas engine slotting in between a the base v8 and the diesel 6.7.

In a nutshell what makes a diesel more efficient than a gasoline engine? Essentially no throttle restriction to limit pumping losses, higher compression ratios for a larger expansion ratio (more heat convert to mechanical movement), and higher energy content of the fuel. What limits the Cummins 6.7 diesels efficiency? Low operating temps so expansion heat is lost to the engine coolant and low volumetric efficiency (can't rev high, less combustion events).

A thoughtfully designed high compression gas 6.7 that is geared to operate at full throttle nearly all of the time (avoids pumping loss), high operating temps (less heat lost to the coolant), high compression 14:1+, and you can make a gas engine nearly as efficient as diesel, with the advantage of high volumetric efficiency, and less cost by skipping DPF and SCR systems. If they set the turbo to be low pressure, then you gain volumetric efficiency, and don't add so much heat to the combustion chamber that you have to run rich to cool the cylinder temps. The opposite of the eco boost, where they try to make a small displacement engine perform like a large displacement engine, instead of maximum efficiency. Also variable coolant temps help (yes this is a thing on gasoline engines), to reduce combustion heat loss to coolant, and instead directing it to mechanical expansion.

Plus the ease of converting a 6.7 gasoline engine to run on propane, LNG, etc. Makes it pretty versatile. I think this has been missed opportunity by the light duty truck manufactures (class 1,2) for a long time in "HD trucks."

I also think HD trucks could go on a diet, to increase payload. Look how much wasted space is in the hood........ The higher the hood the closer to god philosophy is a real obstacle to fuel economy. If you look at my 2000 Ford F-450 with a 7.3 compared to my 2019 Ram 3500 6.7 HO, Even though the engine is smaller the hood is a good 14 inches taller, and longer in length. Mostly empty space, and added wind drag on the ram.

 

[406Linetrash]

I think its about time someone built a turbocharged gas engine for the HD trucks. Too me it always seemed like a big gap in their lineup. Having a natural aspirated gas engine for the base engine, then offering a turbo diesel as the step-up engine left a lot of room between the two. Frankly Ford found a market for a step-up gas engine with the 7.3L v-8. I think ram could easily offer a 6.7 turbo gas engine for significantly less than the diesel, and I would never look back and buy another diesel. The thing that has kept diesels alive this point has been a lack of a credible gasoline alternative and turbocharging (for the power hungry). There is no reason you can't build a cheaper gas engine to have nearly diesel levels of torque. I'd be happy to give up oilly pumps and looking for DEF and loss of payload. Heck I wouldn't mind a hellcat motor, slightly detuned. Ever driven a non-turbo diesel, omg they are so pokey.

I'm with you. I'm really curious if the new twin turbo i6 makes it to the HD line. Or a variant of it. If the numbers are there, I would switch in a heartbeat

 

[Redfour5]

This would be cool if it comes to reality.

The new engine would also be able to be adapted to hydrogen AND other fuels apparently and also but here is a guy who is a mechanic in Canada with a lot of experience specifically with the 6.7 Cummins in many different vehicles and a Power Wagon fanatic (6.4) and his discussion on what the advantages and disadvantages and probability of a gas version might look like. He basically thinks it is a distinct possibility as it would be surprisingly easy and inexpensive for Cummins to do this...

 

[nick112288]

So it's the same rotating assembly, gas has slightly less energy than diesel.

What's keeping this 6.7 gas engine from producing near the same hp/tq as the diesel version? I assume compression ratio difference?

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

So it's the same rotating assembly, gas has slightly less energy than diesel.

What's keeping this 6.7 gas engine from producing near the same hp/tq as the diesel version? I assume compression ratio difference?

It is very likely it will produce great numbers

 

[John Jensen]

7.6l and they would have my attention.

The 8.0l V10 screamed no replacement for displacement back in the 90s...lol

I owned one, was an extra cab dually. Pulled like a tank and drank gas like a tank.
The price of gas was cheap then so not a big problem. Was worth the cost for the power. It had the highest torque and horsepower of any pickup truck. And in the Viper it was an awesome powerhouse.

 

[DevilDodge]

I owned one, was an extra cab dually. Pulled like a tank and drank gas like a tank.
The price of gas was cheap then so not a big problem. Was worth the cost for the power. It had the highest torque and horsepower of any pickup truck. And in the Viper it was an awesome powerhouse.

I still own mine. It is still the most powerful GAS engine RAM makes. 450ft lbs if torque...21 more than the 6.4l and much, much lower in the RPM range.

Really...truth be told...just driving my 8.0l the 5.7l and the 6.4l...they all 3 get about 12mpg.

On the high way I can get the 6.4l to 18 the 8.0l to 17 but that 5.7 struggles to get 16.

Towing the 6.4l and 8.0l get 9 to 11

The 5.7 7 to 9

I wish the V10 could have held on for these newer transmissions. In the late 90s early 2000s the transmissions gave up at about 475lb ft.

Now they make them all the way to 1200lb ft.

I feel if the Cummins and cheap diesel would not have went together so well...the 8.0l V10 could have easily seen 500 horse and 575 torque.

Heck...that is what they git when they tuned it for the Trex 6 x 6 concept they made.

 

[Phil T]

How about we just put a government in place that will end this nonsense????

 

[BighornHDRam]

I have been researching and thinking about reverting back to a gas truck lately due to the ongoing diesel fuel prices and constant regen issues I have been dealing with and I'm not sure if a diesel truck is what I need for the future for me. I have been looking for more info on the new Cummins gas engine and came across this video of them test driving some of the new 6.7l gas turbo charged engines in a 2018 Ram 2500, go to 2:41 in the video and some medium duty delivery trucks. The power numbers thrown around in the video was 320hp and 660 LB-FT of torque