2025 Ram Heavy Duty To Get New ZF Powerline® 8-Speed

[AH64ID]

That’s where you see manufacturers skimp- not just ram but everyone- saving .12 cents on a cheaper u joint that causes frustration down the road.

I was bored last night and read something about the new ZF trans. Supposedly part of the fuel economy “savings” is a feature called “start-stop”. It basically shifts the trans from drive to neutral every time vehicle comes to a complete stop. Sounds like the engine start stop the industry went to on everything to meet Obama’s CAFE standards. I find this the most annoying feature on new cars and it turned a $200 starter into a $1000 starter with extra wear and tear.

The integration of a similar feature in the transmission will likely cause addition wear on the transmission and just complicates it which likely will increase cost to save a little fuel. I know .gov has caused this problem and the manufacturers have their hands forced, but it’s still frustrating.

lol, Ram is not using cheap or inferior u-joints… they simply have size constraints. They are huge, just not enough for 1075 ft/lbs and a 3-4:1 1st gear.

I have no doubt every single vehicle on the road has some type of torque management to some degree, hell, my wife’s Honda Pilot dead pedals in a few situations and it’s infuriating. Some bit of torque management might be needed but when it’s so much so you don’t get the full 1,075 ft lbs what’s the point of chasing these silly numbers? Most folks don’t buy these trucks to stop light race or race up the Ike, just say’n. As to the rest of the driveline, the trans is the weak link. I’ve seen way too many examples of highly modified diesels on huge tire doing stupid things like boosted 4 wheel drive launches on stock axles and tcases, those components will take a good bit of power.

I like torque management, to a point. It keeps components alive and lets us have more power when we need it, such as the upper gears where we lose torque multiplication. 1075 isn’t needed in 1-3rd gear, but it’s really nice in 4-6.

Yes the trans is the current weak link, but if you build a trans to hold full power in lower gears and hook up to 25K lbs you will find that the rest of the drivetrain is undersized.

 

[Brutal_HO]

lol, Ram is not using cheap or inferior u-joints… they simply have size constraints. They are huge, just not enough for 1075 ft/lbs and a 3-4:1 1st gear.



I like torque management, to a point. It keeps components alive and lets us have more power when we need it, such as the upper gears where we lose torque multiplication. 1075 isn’t needed in 1-3rd gear, but it’s really nice in 4-6.

Yes the trans is the current weak link, but if you build a trans to hold full power in lower gears and hook up to 25K lbs you will find that the rest of the drivetrain is undersized.

What's wrong with you? We want zero torque management and launch control bumping off a rev limiter so we can race light-to-light with them Ford and GM bois on 24's.

 

[Enve46]

What's wrong with you? We want zero torque management and launch control bumping off a rev limiter so we can race light-to-light with them Ford and GM bois on 24's.

Sounds fun to me!

 

[RTillery]

I miss my 04 with the NV5600 dual disc clutch. Third gear, toe the brake, heel the throttle, start to slip the clutch, one eye on the boost gauge, one eye on the red light, the other eye on the Tesla S next to me. Surprised the crap out of a few of them. Old fart now, I like my Aisin.

 

[WXman]

So those who speculate that ZF and Ram have managed to get a higher torque rating for the hd Rams are correct, certainly Ram isn't going to go backwards with the torque output. I think perhaps there's finally some good news on the hd truck front.

Yeah that news yesterday about the S.O. engine going away was nice to see. I guess the new engine will be 450ish horsepower across the board. Which makes sense considering that their main competitors' have had that power level for over 6 years now. Hell, my old 6.7 Powerstroke came factory at 450 HP and 935 lb/ft, which according to dyno tests that have been done near sea level is a very under-rated number. Seems that the 2017-2019 trucks were really making around 1,025 lb/ft.

So yeah, it's about time that Ram gets serious about the new trucks. Better power output and better transmissions.

Now, if they'd just get their heads out of the sand and do a heavy update on the 6.4 Hemi they would find themselves able to sell trucks again.

 

[Blythkd1]

Yes the trans is the current weak link, but if you build a trans to hold full power in lower gears and hook up to 25K lbs you will find that the rest of the drivetrain is undersized.

Exactly. Build up the transmission then you just dump a driveshaft. Sure the stock driveshafts hold up to boosted launches, empty. Hook up to a big load and it's a totally different ballgame. You can tear up most anything at 35,000# if you're determined enough.

About 200-300 lb/ft of torque ago, I wondered where it was going to stop. Pickups now have more power than the first semi trucks I drove in the 90's, and they were modern computerized engines, not antiques. So do we go to 1500 lb/ft of torque because each mfr has to win and it can be managed with TM?

The numbers are just crazy anymore. Pickups have plenty of power for anything you need to do anymore. But I'm sure the power wars will continue.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm holding out for the 13spd Roadranger. Should be there in about 5 or 6 years, I'm guessing

 

[LegendaryLawman]

Simplicity with one offering does make sense from a sales and production standpoint but the HO typically gets 2-3 mpg less from posts I’ve seen, assuming this new trans actually gets 10% better fuel economy by wearing itself out by drive to neutral at every stop light- you might actually see the new engine be at the same mpg as the current SO or 1 mpg less.

Regardless 370hp/850tq is enough for me and 80% of realistic buyers. The new figures are cool but really a gimmick. I’d sacrifice lower rail pressures, less boost, higher compression (real diesel ratio #) allowing the SO numbers to obtain better MPG. I think ram is going backwards in this respect honestly. I like economy and longevity. Size is only one factor, lol

 

[DuallyContender]

Somehow Mark Dodge still says they have not heard anything about these updates just yet.

 

[AnthonyRI]

Somehow Mark Dodge still says they have not heard anything about these updates just yet.

Correction - We've heard plenty about the transmission, but it's all from the same sources online as all of you - NOT anything from RAM directly. There's a big difference.

 

[DuallyContender]

Correction - We've heard plenty about the transmission, but it's all from the same sources online as all of you - NOT anything from RAM directly. There's a big difference.

Thank you for clearing that up!

 

[AnthonyRI]

Thank you for clearing that up!

Not trying to stray too far off topic - but here's an example of why.
Late last week Wrangler 392 Final Edition images were leaked with a $6K price tag for the package. All over the forums/facebook. No source provided.
Released yesterday in the actual ordering system and it's $8450. Sure glad I didn't quote a customer the $6K on rumors!

For this transmission I'm not as concerned that it IS or ISN'T happening but more about what the capacities are, and what the implications are across different engines and trim levels, and of course cost.
With the new Hurricane in the 1500s, it did NOT go the way anyone had predicted, in terms of which version where and how many choices - so I'm going to be fingers crossed on this HD trans!

 

[DuallyContender]

Not trying to stray too far off topic - but here's an example of why.
Late last week Wrangler 392 Final Edition images were leaked with a $6K price tag for the package. All over the forums/facebook. No source provided.
Released yesterday in the actual ordering system and it's $8450. Sure glad I didn't quote a customer the $6K on rumors!

For this transmission I'm not as concerned that it IS or ISN'T happening but more about what the capacities are, and what the implications are across different engines and trim levels, and of course cost.
With the new Hurricane in the 1500s, it did NOT go the way anyone had predicted, in terms of which version where and how many choices - so I'm going to be fingers crossed on this HD trans!

Very well put! As always we all here appreciate the information and your commitment to this board!

 

[oledirteh]

i would like to just swap this in my 2021 and call it a day.

 

[LegendaryLawman]

Yea don’t give Anthony a hard time he’s a good dude.

I’m still scratching my head by people hat we’re 68rfe so bad. It’s really not a bad trans. Is it perfect, no way but it ain’t this bad

 

[oledirteh]

Yea don’t give Anthony a hard time he’s a good dude.

I’m still scratching my head by people hat we’re 68rfe so bad. It’s really not a bad trans. Is it perfect, no way but it ain’t this bad

its that way cause its not a great trans. sadly ever since i can remember ram has never had a decent trans. my 68rfe has almost 91k on it and 17k+ towing 13000 lbs up and down mountains. i also dont hot dog my truck and drive normal. my 2018 had the 68rfe and also did heavy towing with no issues.

that said, there is a clutch slip code on my trans since 40k miles however the trans tech said its with in spec. send it. which i am and ill add better/more clutches when i rebuild it.

 

[LegendaryLawman]

its that way cause its not a great trans. sadly ever since i can remember ram has never had a decent trans. my 68rfe has almost 91k on it and 17k+ towing 13000 lbs up and down mountains. i also dont hot dog my truck and drive normal. my 2018 had the 68rfe and also did heavy towing with no issues.

that said, there is a clutch slip code on my trans since 40k miles however the trans tech said its with in spec. send it. which i am and ill add better/more clutches when i rebuild it.

I think people give it a harder time because of the history with their trans and dodges poor choices. Dodge has never had a bulletproof trans. You can look from 89 and on. They have gotten better with each one. The 68 is better than the the 2nd gen’s by far. All manufacturers skimp on internals to save. It’s planned obsolescence and just build it enough to get through the warranty period. Aisin was a stop gap for HO buyers who tow for a living.

 

[Xflight29]

They haven't even gone into grave - detail about how much torque it can handle. All they have is a short interdiction on 1000lb torque. Do you think that a manufacture the size of Powerline would even manufacture a trans that can't handle whatever torque the 25s will have required. You guys' bitch about not having an 8 or 10 speed trans and then they come out with one and its not sufficient.

 

[mbarber84]

lol, Ram is not using cheap or inferior u-joints… they simply have size constraints. They are huge, just not enough for 1075 ft/lbs and a 3-4:1 1st gear.



I like torque management, to a point. It keeps components alive and lets us have more power when we need it, such as the upper gears where we lose torque multiplication. 1075 isn’t needed in 1-3rd gear, but it’s really nice in 4-6.

Yes the trans is the current weak link, but if you build a trans to hold full power in lower gears and hook up to 25K lbs you will find that the rest of the drivetrain is undersized.

Definitely need to control the torque. I think often the Cummins gets glazed over because too many people get glossy-eyed when they see the GM and Fords absolutely crushing the Ram in worthless tests like the 1/4 mile run, or the 0-60 run. People have a tendency to be swayed by factors and demonstrations that really do not underscore the fundamental principles and necessities that make these trucks useful. The Cummins has been and will always be the strongest engine on the pickup market when it comes to torque (which is one of the chief reasons a diesel engine excels at the type of work these trucks were designed to do). I have a friend who formerly worked at Aisin and was one of the principal personnel involved in the development and testing of the AS69RC in the Ram application. In one of our many conversations, he was explaining what the testing of that transmission was like when it was bolted to the Cummins. They were testing the power input against the lock up clutch in the transmission at one point and had verifiable test data that showed the Cummins was so incredibly strong with torque input, at WOT and full load, the engine was actually slipping the lock up clutch 1 degree for every power stroke on each of the six cylinders. The torque management is absolutely necessary in order to keep the drivetrain alive and healthy. Otherwise there would be far more premature failures of components and far less long term durability.

 

[Enve46]

Definitely need to control the torque. I think often the Cummins gets glazed over because too many people get glossy-eyed when they see the GM and Fords absolutely crushing the Ram in worthless tests like the 1/4 mile run, or the 0-60 run. People have a tendency to be swayed by factors and demonstrations that really do not underscore the fundamental principles and necessities that make these trucks useful. The Cummins has been and will always be the strongest engine on the pickup market when it comes to torque (which is one of the chief reasons a diesel engine excels at the type of work these trucks were designed to do). I have a friend who formerly worked at Aisin and was one of the principal personnel involved in the development and testing of the AS69RC in the Ram application. In one of our many conversations, he was explaining what the testing of that transmission was like when it was bolted to the Cummins. They were testing the power input against the lock up clutch in the transmission at one point and had verifiable test data that showed the Cummins was so incredibly strong with torque input, at WOT and full load, the engine was actually slipping the lock up clutch 1 degree for every power stroke on each of the six cylinders. The torque management is absolutely necessary in order to keep the drivetrain alive and healthy. Otherwise there would be far more premature failures of components and far less long term durability.

So looking at this info and then looking at pure performance in these useless tests, 0-60 etc, is the better transmissions GM and Ford use allowing them to utilize TM differently or less? There are a few of us that have an inner child that want a truck that has some balls when we get immature hahaha Generally curious, not being a wise ass

 

[tcedgar8]

I think moving to the ZF will be a big win for RAM. The medium duty market is a different animal where the application of components has to work or you get lawsuits like International on there engines. The Point of these trucks is for work but for a large number of people that drive them like a light switch and expect them to last forever. Clutches need time to apply and torque should be applied smooth. That all said I have a 19'HO deleted and its really fun to drive it like a teenager sometimes lol. Frankly when it was stock I was really impressed with the factory tuning of the truck the turbo lag leaves something to be desired but the truck is built to tow and does it well.

Additionally on the Medium duty market. I managed a fleet of trucks equipped with Allison 3000 and 6.7 Cummins. These were all loaded to 100-120,000 lbs. 20 hrs. a day and drove by kids that just got a license i.e.. to the wood everywhere. other than a few warranty claims on leaking clutch's (known for on specific models). we had trucks with 20,000 hrs. and 80-100000 KM. The highest hour and milage ones typically had no major repairs causing there retainment.

My own truck is a frieghtliner single axle truck lives at 28000 lbs. does hills and runs in a mine all day. never had issues L9 Cummins with Allison 3500. Many co workers have Paccar trucks with autos and again no thought on trans issues.

Point is application, maintenance and operator are major contributors to success of a drive trains, the auto industries need to reinvent the wheel every year with bigger better offering meanwhile passing heavy R&D on to customer covered via warranty is crappy and does not led its self the the former two factors mentioned.