DougB
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Is the 8k the GVWR of the trailer or the empty weight?
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2500 vs 3500 ride
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gimmie11s
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Im fully aware of how to get to payload. I'll agree youre right that there will be "plenty" (purely anecdotal BTW) of examples of F250s and Rams weighing similarly. HOWEVER... that is absolutely the exception and not the rule. The rule is, the F250 is the lighter truck. You are arguing the exception which is a straw man argument.
Here is a 2019 F250 XLT Powerstroke diesel owned by my neighbor. This truck has the same GVWR as a Ram 2500. It has power seats, power windows, power mirrors (power everything basically), telescoping wheel, center console with bucket cloth seats and upholstered door panels. Basically it is Ram's version of a nicely optioned diesel Big Horn 2500.
This truck is 4-500 lbs lighter than a similarly equipped Ram 2500 (I owned one). Period end of story.
"Leaf spring or coil spring, it's a spring"?? You do realize Ram went to the coil spring in the 2500 rear end solely for ride comfort improvement, correct?
The Ram axles are plenty strong. Very strong indeed. It's the coil springs. Actually, the coil springs are the reason Power Wagons have a lower payload and capability than a non PW truck--Their coils are even softer further illustrating my point on the 2500 diesel Rams.
Im fully aware of how to get to payload. I'll agree youre right that there will be "plenty" (purely anecdotal BTW) of examples of F250s and Rams weighing similarly. HOWEVER... that is absolutely the exception and not the rule. The rule is, the F250 is the lighter truck. You are arguing the exception which is a straw man argument.
Here is a 2019 F250 XLT Powerstroke diesel owned by my neighbor. This truck has the same GVWR as a Ram 2500. It has power seats, power windows, power mirrors (power everything basically), telescoping wheel, center console with bucket cloth seats and upholstered door panels. Basically it is Ram's version of a nicely optioned diesel Big Horn 2500.
This truck is 4-500 lbs lighter than a similarly equipped Ram 2500 (I owned one). Period end of story.
"Leaf spring or coil spring, it's a spring"?? You do realize Ram went to the coil spring in the 2500 rear end solely for ride comfort improvement, correct?
The Ram axles are plenty strong. Very strong indeed. It's the coil springs. Actually, the coil springs are the reason Power Wagons have a lower payload and capability than a non PW truck--Their coils are even softer further illustrating my point on the 2500 diesel Rams.
Does that pic show 2395 lbs of payload? If so, I’m happy with the 2250 payload that my Ram 2500 Cummins Laramie crew cab has.
Monoman
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GVWR ... knowing RVs are like boats and people like to go bigger I like to plan for some of that.
DougB
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4-500 or 700-1000 lighter? Which is it? I'd agree with the former argument but not the latter in an apples to apples comparison. The Big Horns I've looked at have payloads 2050-2250.
You've got your examples, I've got my examples. You're looking at Big Horn/XLT, I was looking at Lariat/Laramie. There are plenty of examples for both arguments. Either way, IMO, Ram is screwing its owners by staying at 10k GVWR regardless if they could do it with the current coil springs or if they needed to increase the spring rate. Ford and Chevy are giving their buyers options.
My point of a spring is a spring is F=kx, regardless of the type. If Ford really is increasing the spring rate to go to 10,800 when adding the HCTP then so be it, they do it and make a 3/4 ton with a worthy payload. Ram could do the same and I doubt many would consider the ride quality suffers.
I'm sure you know this, Power Wagons are softer for articulation off-road so you have to sacrifice something.
DougB
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Yeah, I get that. Here are my opinions after doing a lot of research into this subject over the last 1-1.5 years before I ordered my truck.
If you think you'd go 5th wheel then get a 3500. Many people will say get a dually for a large 5th wheel. I was considering a 3500 SRW when I thought I might go up to a low to mid-size 5er but we decided that we would not go that route. If you don't want to worry about numbers then go 3500 with air. The empty ride is still nice for a 1 ton truck.
If you're going to stay <10k GVWR with a travel trailer, then the 2500 would be fine, IMO. Use a WDH for added safety. If you don't go factory air ride, you can add aftermarket airbags. YES, you might go over the payload number depending on what all you load into the truck so if that's a concern to you, then go 3500. If you load your truck and 10k GVWR smartly, use a WDH, you can stay safely within GVWR and GAWR.
I did consider gas for more payload, less hassle with diesel maintenance, and less concerns about it being more a daily driver than tow vehicle, but towing with the Cummins is so effortless. I didn't want to bother with filling up at gas pumps with a trailer in tow. I also wanted to upgrade to the exhaust brake which my 06 does not have.
Do your research and figure out your personal pros and cons. There are PLENTY of these threads asking the same thing you did. Best of luck sorting out what you want!
loveracing1988
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Holy hell this went south fast... My 2020 3500 rode better than my 2014 2500 did. It really surprised me on the test drive. Now that I have thuren springs on the front and fox shocks on all 4 corners it rides better than my dads F-150.
Here is the general rule. If you are getting a diesel jump right to a 3500, it will legally pull all but the heaviest of trailers and haul almost anything. If you stick with gas the 2500 is fine. Whether or not you believe in "being legal" is up to you.
Here is the general rule. If you are getting a diesel jump right to a 3500, it will legally pull all but the heaviest of trailers and haul almost anything. If you stick with gas the 2500 is fine. Whether or not you believe in "being legal" is up to you.
H3LZSN1P3R
You're doing it wrong
Your argument about coils is laughable as they use coils on all kinds of things including locomotives and tons of heavy military trucks without issue, the only reason ford has more payload is they dropped the weight going with pop can aluminum which was a terrible idea in my books i know a few people with them 150/250/350 that hate them once winter comes as they cant go anywhere without 4x4 unless the roads are bare and dry as the rear end does not have the weight anymore… i way over do my legal payload and have not squatted my truck yet
Monoman
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Thank you for replying.
My main concern now is not so much the ride but trim line differences. If we went Laramie and then added "all the toys" does it basically become a Limited with different styling or are there functional differences? It may not be a deal breaker but it isn't always obvious. Asking a dealer is a crap shoot in my experience. Perhaps I should start a thread just for that question.
I think the main difference will be the seats and type of leather used. The limited had nicer leather and more color options, but can only be had with bucket seats up front. The Laramie can be a bench seat or bucket seats.
renagade69
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Get the 3500 HO if you are worried at all.
You can skip the factory air bags on your 2500 and get aftermarket ones to increase the nonlegal payload. The factory airbags can handle a little more than payload rating but not much more.
The ride on the 2500 is a little better than the 3500 single.
You can get the Laramie optioned to a Limited minus Limited specific leather and badging.
You can skip the factory air bags on your 2500 and get aftermarket ones to increase the nonlegal payload. The factory airbags can handle a little more than payload rating but not much more.
The ride on the 2500 is a little better than the 3500 single.
You can get the Laramie optioned to a Limited minus Limited specific leather and badging.
I think the major differences between a limited and a trimmed-out Laramie are the LED Projector/adaptive headlights (limited) vs LED reflector (Laramie), different instrument cluster, different steering wheel (half “wood”), different belt line trim , and maybe more soft surfaces (not sure if that comes on a top-trim Laramie or not)
DougB
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As others have pointed out you can option out a Laramie almost to a Limited minus the better leather and headlights. Aside from that I think the differences are interior cosmetics.
I suggest looking online at photos and YouTube videos of review of both trims. Moreso, if you can find dealers trims in stock that’d be best. Same for the 2500/3500 debate if you need to. I never found a limited in the light interior only the all black. I am not a fan of all black interior. With my ordered Laramie I at least get the light gray headliner which for the limited is only with the blue/frost interior. I also am not a fan of the wood on the steering wheel or the filigree accents inside. These are very much personal preference hence why I made the suggestions above.
Hopefully you have the luxury of time to make your decision and come to it easily.
gimmie11s
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How much lighter depends on the truck, but overall the Ford is lighter. (Rule vs exception).
I guess the only disagreement is whether or not Ram is "screwing" its owners by artificially under rating the 2500 trucks. I dont think they are, but who knows i suppose.
Yeah, no. Another straw-man argument.
Obviously there are coil springs for massively heavy duty applications. This is not an argument about the coil spring or its capabilities in theory.
This is an argument about the particular coil spring used in the Ram 2500. IMO it is too soft for more GVWR and if Ram went with a stiffer, heavier duty coil, it would negate the benefit of the unloaded ride quality that the current coil provides---AT THAT POINT THEY MIGHT AS WELL GO BACK TO LEAFS.
The Ford has better GVWR for multiple reasons. 1 being they are lighter--like ive said. 2 being they can be optioned with an HD/max tow package that allows 10,800 GVWR which the Ram does not offer. It is my belief Ford can offer 10,800 because of the leaf spring rear end on the F250.
H3LZSN1P3R
You're doing it wrong
2150lbs of water plus all my hunting gear, tools, 4 jerry cans of fuel and a loaded trailer with 1600lbs sxs in it…. The 2k my payload sticker says is way under rated for what coils can do. There is still 3.5” until its at the bump stops on the rear….
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gimmie11s
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H3LZSN1P3R
You're doing it wrong
Just proves my point…. Yes a 3500 does better but a 2500 can hold its own better than you make it sound…. Regaurdless of what ford rates their trucks they squat much easier than rams
renagade69
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Other than than the rear springs, the 2014-later 2500 and 3500 SRW trucks are identical down to the last bolt. Same frame, 50KSI steel, same axles, axle ratings, same tires, no physical difference. The ONLY difference is the US Govt DOT GVWR ratings, which are mostly arbitrary depending on how the OEM markets the truck.
The coil springs in a RAM 2500 have a similar spring load to a leaf spring SRW RAM 3500. Sag with trailer loads are similar if not favoring the 2500. However, the spring rate on a 2500 is softer, hence the better ride and lower GVWR rating to fit under the arbitrary DOT 10,000lb GVWR limit.
www.dieselpowerproducts.com
The coil springs in a RAM 2500 have a similar spring load to a leaf spring SRW RAM 3500. Sag with trailer loads are similar if not favoring the 2500. However, the spring rate on a 2500 is softer, hence the better ride and lower GVWR rating to fit under the arbitrary DOT 10,000lb GVWR limit.
Towing with a Rear Coil Sprung Ram 2500
Leaf springs have been part of vehicles suspension since the beginning, and on horse drawn buggies even before the motor car existed. Most passenger cars used leaf springs on all four corners until the 1940s, and on the rear until the late 1970s. Due to their industrial application, most 4wd...
www.dieselpowerproducts.com
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DougB
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My buddy’s 2018 2500 CCSB 6.7 easily towed a 14k gooseneck loaded with 2 Jeeps between TX to CO without issue. Also 4 guys in the cab. Over payload? Of course. Over GAWR or GCWR? Nope. Stable as heck and no problems. He added aftermarket airbags as he thought it would squat but it handled it so well I think he only had maybe 10-15 psi in the bags. He started at 40 psi he but said it was stiff as hell so he dropped it.
If you’re concerned at all about numbers and your budget allows, get the 3500 and the HO so you’ve got the best of the best. It would be overkill for the 8k trailer but you’ll not have a worry, can step up to a lot more trailer later and those are worth a lot to many people. Even less worry would be add DRW as well and you can go really big.
With the 3500, need to be mindful of the 26,001 GCWR CDL limit and check your state’s towing weight license requirements. That’s partially what kept me out of a 3500 MC at 12,300 GVWR. If I used it to tow my buddy’s 14k gooseneck in TX I would need a non commercial CDL license as the GCWR would be 26,300 thus over the 26,001 limit.
@Monoman Let us know what you ultimately order/buy.
If you’re concerned at all about numbers and your budget allows, get the 3500 and the HO so you’ve got the best of the best. It would be overkill for the 8k trailer but you’ll not have a worry, can step up to a lot more trailer later and those are worth a lot to many people. Even less worry would be add DRW as well and you can go really big.
With the 3500, need to be mindful of the 26,001 GCWR CDL limit and check your state’s towing weight license requirements. That’s partially what kept me out of a 3500 MC at 12,300 GVWR. If I used it to tow my buddy’s 14k gooseneck in TX I would need a non commercial CDL license as the GCWR would be 26,300 thus over the 26,001 limit.
@Monoman Let us know what you ultimately order/buy.
gimmie11s
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Other than than the rear springs, the 2014-later 2500 and 3500 SRW trucks are identical down to the last bolt. Same frame, 50KSI steel, same axles, axle ratings, same tires, no physical difference. The ONLY difference is the US Govt DOT GVWR ratings, which are mostly arbitrary depending on how the OEM markets the truck.
The coil springs in a RAM 2500 have a similar spring load to a leaf spring SRW RAM 3500. Sag with trailer loads are similar if not favoring the 2500. However, the spring rate on a 2500 is softer, hence the better ride and lower GVWR rating to fit under the arbitrary DOT 10,000lb GVWR limit.
Towing with a Rear Coil Sprung Ram 2500
Leaf springs have been part of vehicles suspension since the beginning, and on horse drawn buggies even before the motor car existed. Most passenger cars used leaf springs on all four corners until the 1940s, and on the rear until the late 1970s. Due to their industrial application, most 4wd...
That is a really good article that better outlines what i felt on my 2500 truck. With my 5er, it felt like the truck had a ton of side to side tilt when turning--not a good feeling at all. I knew it was because of the coil suspension design, but i wasnt sure why. The narrow spacing of the coils inside of the frame rails makes a lot of sense.