CP4 to CP-ISB21S3 (revised CP3) change for 2021 6.7L Diesel Trucks -- Merged Threads

[LossPrev]

I think all of you that have theorized Ram will do a recall to swap out every '19-'20 to this new CP3 are delusional. If Ford and GM left the cp4 alone for years and only replaced blown units under warranty there is no way in hell Ram is going to do anything different.

Best case scenario, this "solution" they're working on is installing this new cp3 on trucks that break within the warranty period. That's it. If yours breaks 1 day outside of warranty too bad, if it breaks while towing 1000mi from home too bad it'll get fixed by a dealer on their schedule, if they say you had water in your tank too bad...

I really really hope I'm wrong!

 

[NDanecker]

So true. They will not replace every 2019 and 2020 CP4 pump for a CP3. Not going to happen. They will address failures as they arise. I think we see many people on this board who had theirs goes bad but don't see the thousands that don't. Don't confuse a small percentage of failures as a major issue. Although I agree the truck can leave you stranded it can also leave you stranded for so many other issues that fail. That is what warranty is for. If you feel cheated by all means trade the truck in for a Ford or Chevy. They all have their pros and cons. No truck is PERFECT. None.

If the dealer won't warranty the claim then I'd document as much you can, have the dealer write up a report that can be used to go after the fuel station. If you had the issue it is highly likely others will to.

 

[Cgptv]

I would go for a huge discount for a cp3 pump kit from FCA. I still bothers me that I traded a perfectly good 2017 limited 2500 and purchased a 2020 bighorn dually. If I had done my homework I would have traded for 2018 dually. Once coved is done I plan on a lot of traveling with the toyhauler. I do not like paying for something twice.

 

[mra400ex]

Personally I think we should keep the faith from what Ramcares posted last. That FCA and Cummins will work towards a solution. As in a CP3 conversion. Very sad situation. As I posted previously, NHTSA issued a recall on the Ford/IHC about the cam sensor issues, that truck could stall at any time making it unsafe. So in my opinion reports of the CP4 failing have done the same. Either way FCA needs to provide a workable solution so this problem is gone. All we can do is wait and see what happens, keep on top of filters, use the recommended additives and not run the tank empty. If the water in fuel sensor is anything like my 2002 Ford 7.3 it would set off with 1 drop of water. Hopefully the sensor on the Ram is as accurate. After research on the HD trucks I thought I was getting the best option for my needs. Now I am beginning to wonder if I should have considered the new 7.3 gas Ford engine in a F450 chassis or even the 6.6L GM gas motor....So sad. I like this truck.

 

[JEI-CAN]

I just say there will be cp3 conversion kit by FCA. We dont know yet, will it be replaced to all truck, hopefully, but at least for very little money for all who want. As an upgrade.

They cannot continue to replace broken cp4:s with another cp4. Its endless way and will have very bad negative effect to customers.

 

[ianacole]

So true. They will not replace every 2019 and 2020 CP4 pump for a CP3. Not going to happen. They will address failures as they arise. I think we see many people on this board who had theirs goes bad but don't see the thousands that don't. Don't confuse a small percentage of failures as a major issue. Although I agree the truck can leave you stranded it can also leave you stranded for so many other issues that fail. That is what warranty is for. If you feel cheated by all means trade the truck in for a Ford or Chevy. They all have their pros and cons. No truck is PERFECT. None.

If the dealer won't warranty the claim then I'd document as much you can, have the dealer write up a report that can be used to go after the fuel station. If you had the issue it is highly likely others will to.

Reminds me of Porsche's response (or lack thereof) to the IMS bearing issues in their M96 engines.

 

[JEI-CAN]

Reminds me of Porsche's response (or lack thereof) to the IMS bearing issues in their M96 engines.

I remember that. It was very big job to replace bearings. But what I dont remember, did the problem cause accidental stop to car? Like safety issue? Or was it more just quality problems, that slowly comes and eventually went to the point that bearings need to be replaced.

 

[ianacole]

I remember that. It was very big job to replace bearings. But what I dont remember, did the problem cause accidental stop to car? Like safety issue? Or was it more just quality problems, that slowly comes and eventually went to the point that bearings need to be replaced.

Grenaded the motor. I don't remember if there were any safety issues, like dead stop in traffic. Some cars, like my '97 Boxster, that had the double row bearings were less susceptible, less than 1%, but the single row bearings were up higher failure rates.

 

[Wileykid]

Personally I think we should keep the faith from what Ramcares posted last. That FCA and Cummins will work towards a solution. As in a CP3 conversion. Very sad situation. As I posted previously, NHTSA issued a recall on the Ford/IHC about the cam sensor issues, that truck could stall at any time making it unsafe. So in my opinion reports of the CP4 failing have done the same. Either way FCA needs to provide a workable solution so this problem is gone.

Although NHTSA issued that recall, FORD has had the CP4 for awhile, a number of failures, and lawsuits, but no recall. Not sure we should expect anything different, unless the one in our truck is worse than the one in the Fords.

 

[Millmutt]

Maybe there will be a disaster prevention kit developed by FCA or the aftermarket so in the event there is a pump failure at least it won’t take out the entire fuel system, causing such long downtime, maybe just a pump replacement.
Anyway I’m not worrying about the whole mess, just going to enjoy my ride.

 

[LossPrev]

Although NHTSA issued that recall, FORD has had the CP4 for awhile, a number of failures, and lawsuits, but no recall. Not sure we should expect anything different, unless the one in our truck is worse than the one in the Fords.

Exactly! Everyone saying this could cause result in a safety issue so it will/should get recalled are completely off basis. GM used cp4 for years(without a lift pump!) and there was no gov't safety recall. Ford has been using the cp4 for 9 going on 10 years...no gov't safety recall. What the hell makes you people think Ram is going to magically get one after 2 years?

As a few have said already, I am not happy with my cp4 but I knew it was there when I bought the truck and there literally hundreds of thousands of trucks on the road using it. Is there a higher than acceptable rate of failure, I would say yes but your truck is not a piece of useless **** either...

My stance at this point is if it blows within the warranty period I better have a new pump, ideally this cp3 thing. If I get jerked around about "contaminated fuel" or my truck sits for months then we have a problem. It's not 'if' an issue arises, it's 'how' the issue is handled that's important to me.

 

[Brutal_HO]

Exactly! Everyone saying this could cause result in a safety issue so it will/should get recalled are completely off basis. GM used cp4 for years(without a lift pump!) and there was no gov't safety recall. Ford has been using the cp4 for 9 going on 10 years...no gov't safety recall. What the hell makes you people think Ram is going to magically get one after 2 years?

As a few have said already, I am not happy with my cp4 but I knew it was there when I bought the truck and there literally hundreds of thousands of trucks on the road using it. Is there a higher than acceptable rate of failure, I would say yes but your truck is not a piece of useless **** either...

My stance at this point is if it blows within the warranty period I better have a new pump, ideally this cp3 thing. If I get jerked around about "contaminated fuel" or my truck sits for months then we have a problem. It's not 'if' an issue arises, it's 'how' the issue is handled that's important to me.

Let's turn down the sanctimonious rhetoric just a notch please.

 

[bobohio]

I went to my dealer today, I created the post on Saturday, Only two 2021 in the lot both of them cp3s. I talk with the service manager he do not know anything probably true.
Them I talked with my sales man, he told me I can get you a new-one but, i can't give you a good deal with your 2019 because nobody will bought that truck. That means everybody knows about the freaking fuel injection pump problems. Now what ?

I got great money for my trade! They are giving me almost $4k over blue book for my 2019 3500 srw night edition

 

[Cummins3]

Exactly! Everyone saying this could cause result in a safety issue so it will/should get recalled are completely off basis. GM used cp4 for years(without a lift pump!) and there was no gov't safety recall. Ford has been using the cp4 for 9 going on 10 years...no gov't safety recall. What the hell makes you people think Ram is going to magically get one after 2 years?

As a few have said already, I am not happy with my cp4 but I knew it was there when I bought the truck and there literally hundreds of thousands of trucks on the road using it. Is there a higher than acceptable rate of failure, I would say yes but your truck is not a piece of useless **** either...

My stance at this point is if it blows within the warranty period I better have a new pump, ideally this cp3 thing. If I get jerked around about "contaminated fuel" or my truck sits for months then we have a problem. It's not 'if' an issue arises, it's 'how' the issue is handled that's important to me.

Brand reputation

 

[UglyViking]

To the guys trying to compare what Ford did/didn't do in terms of the CP4 to what FCA is currently going through, your comparisons are not taking into account all the facts.

Here are the bullet points:

• Ford/GM switch to the CP4 in 2011, Ram in 2019
• It's thought that Ford/Bosch made revisions to the CP4 during it's time (now 10 years) in the 6.7 PS
  • I've been unable to find hard data on this as the Ford guys just don't seem as concerned as the Ram guys. That could indicate a difference in failure rate or the Ford guys are just happy to buy a new truck with their current one blows (Ford is Americas number one selling truck after all )
• GM doesn't use a lift pump and had the CP4 until 2017 (6 years), they changed over to the Denso pump for the L5P (also added a lift pump for the first time in duramax history)
  • I've been unable to find any details about a CP4 redesign for GM either
• FCA released the CP4 in 2019, released a modified CP4 cam in mid-2020 and then reverted to the CP3 in 2021
• Ford is currently failing to get class action lawsuits thrown out (link) as is GM (2 similar cases also noted in the previous link)
  • While class action suits are generally not big wins for the plaintiffs they hurt the company either way. Time will tell what happens but it's notable that multiple of these class actions are still ongoing.

So, to wrap. Ford ran, and continues to run the CP4, coming up on it's 10th year. There may have been revisions but they have stuck to their guns on the CP4, this makes it hard to argue it's a known defect. GM stuck to their guns, until they revised the duramax with the L5P. This means it's very easy to argue that they changed pumps with the release of the new engine, not due to failure rate of the previous pump design.

Now, during the 2 year run Ram had a wildly known about revision and then dumped the pump less than 6 months later. You can't compare Ford/GM with Ram unless you completely fail to account for all other circumstances surrounding the usage of the pumps, length of time in service, etc.

 

[Deleted member 80]

Early model years Duramaxes ran the CP3.

 

[g00fy]

I feel like the biggest difference between Ford/GM and Ram is Ford & GM are using their own in house motors. Yea one could argue that the duramax (Isuzu) is from a 3rd party but GM used to own a big chunk of Isuzu and the duramax it's still a joint project from what I understand, there also isn't a Giant "I" on the side of all the duramax...

Ram on the other hand is using a straight cummins motor, and all Rams with a cummins display that big beautiful "C" on all their trucks. I feel that cummins is going to be the company that really makes the difference in how this whole mess is being handled because their reputation is reliability and this is a serious black eye for them if they don't make sure it's taken care of properly.

 

[roflcopter]

One thing to note going with the NHTSA route (I have a friend who works there and have also submitted concerns with the EcoDiesel that helped get the Crank Position Sensor issue 'resolved') is that they look at the numbers, and a complaint without a failure doesn't really count. They're not in the customer satisfaction game, they're in the safety game. So saying how much it's going to cost you, or the inconvenience, or the brand tarnishing it's causing is pointless to them.

With that said, submitting your complaint won't hurt, but if this is really a large enough issue to be a safety concern then people WHO HAVE HAD FAILURES need to submit reports. The best report to submit is one that is unbiased, not emotionally charged, and has all the facts in it. From my experience (and input from said friend) the best way is to do this:

- State what failed to the best of your knowledge
- State clearly when/where the failure happened (in traffic, parking lot, uphill, downhill, pulling out, etc)
- State if any harm/damage occurred to you or others during the incident
- Explain how your situation caused potential danger to you or others.

 

[UglyViking]

Early model years Duramaxes ran the CP3.

Yes, GM switched to the CP4 in 2011.

I feel like the biggest difference between Ford/GM and Ram is Ford & GM are using their own in house motors. Yea one could argue that the duramax (Isuzu) is from a 3rd party but GM used to own a big chunk of Isuzu and the duramax it's still a joint project from what I understand, there also isn't a Giant "I" on the side of all the duramax...

Ram on the other hand is using a straight cummins motor, and all Rams with a cummins display that big beautiful "C" on all their trucks. I feel that cummins is going to be the company that really makes the difference in how this whole mess is being handled because their reputation is reliability and this is a serious black eye for them if they don't make sure it's taken care of properly.

That is another great point. You have an additional brand giving pressure, as opposed to just internal reputation.

 

[NDanecker]

23 pages of multiple people speculating and debating what Ram should, will, shouldn't, or won't do. Is any of this really productive? Will it make a difference? Probably not.