Carli suspension info

[Surf2snow1]

Not sure. You'd have to ask. Seems most places are talking 6 months plus for the king shocks.

Can attest to that. Waiting on a Thuren with Kings since June. They said October, then December. Latest estimate is March.

 

[el_barto]

Maybe Bilstein will come out with a 5100 series shock that will swap in? I looked around a month ago and didn’t find anything

My understanding is 5100s are not much better than 4600s (stock)…basically from what I’ve read 4600s are softer and typically only available for stock ride height trucks. Other than valving their internals are identical.

 

[flan]

I contacted bilstein a few weeks ago about 5100s on a stock height truck and this was the reply I got.

Thank you for contacting Bilstein. 5100 series, part # 24-268639 is for a 2-2.5” lift. I would not recommend it if you are at stock ride height. Our 4600 series shocks are our best riding and driving truck shocks, we always recommend the 4600 if it is a stock height vehicle. The B8 5100 is longer and tuned for a lifted application. Neither series shock is more durable or better than the other. Thank you.

Just thought I’d post it as they do say the 4600/5100 is a mostly comparable shock.

 

[JamesEvan]

Can attest to that. Waiting on a Thuren with Kings since June. They said October, then December. Latest estimate is March.

Ugh crazy wait times...

 

[gimmie11s]

So after reading a lot of threads about articulink, Carli and Thuren suspension components and alignments, I decided to reach out to Carli for some info.


Base. '21 75th AE PW. 35" BFG KO2. 45/40 PSI. Aligned to Thuren specs.


I began asking Carli about shocks for my truck to give me a better ride. I am not found of lifting the truck any more as it's already high enough for me.

Carli responded back with the following info, and also put me in touch with CJC Offroad. It seems they are one of their main suppliers and probably do some testing for them.

"We offer both King and Fox shock options but none to suit the factory PW springs – all our custom valving is done to our spring rates. On yours, you can expect 2” of front lift and 1” rear lift with our lift. I know you stated you’d prefer not to lift it but, I outline the lift heights to show you they’re negligible enough to be considered."

I then received an Email from CJC and started a conversation with them. I'm passing this info on to maybe help some of you who are thinking of going this route.

"You're welcome to order just shocks, but from our experience it really doesn't alter the ride quality as much as most customers hope for, which is why we prefer the Carli systems that replace the springs/shocks together. Here's a video of our shop Power Wagon on a Carli system and 37s so you can get an idea of what that looks like and rides like.

Again, you're welcome to do shocks alone, but we have a feeling you'll feel let down after the money spent!"

My response and question:

Yea, I'm a member on the HDRam site and have see several of the guys are running the Carli setup and like it. My issue is the lift height as I use my truck. It's already fairly high from the factory, so trying not to go that route.
My other truck, 04 Chevy sits on 37s and 9" of lift and is basically unusable. Need a ladder to get into the bed.
On my PW, I did order the bed step which helps a lot climbing into the truck.
I'll have to do some serious thinking on it.
One question i do have about the suspensions is why does the lower level of the suspension have more front travel than the higher level when they both use the same spring, just different shocks?

CJC response:

We fully understand bed access and all salesmanship aside, we just want you to be happy with the setup. We truly think you'll be happier with the dedicated system as opposed to just doing shocks. That way you're also improving travel, articulation, and actually adding a little rear payload capacity in the process. The added lift is just to improve up travel and separate the axle/frame.

The variance in travel has to do with the size of the shock end caps and the shocks themselves. The King options have a slightly larger end cap/body, so you lose a hair of travel over the Fox systems. It isn't something that's really noticeable in the cab though as the added damping and control you get from the King packages more than make up for a few mm travel loss!

My response and more questions:

Hi again. So I watched your video again. Seen it in the past.
The Carli suspension you say as more flex in it than stock. Have you ran it on a RTI ramp and compared the numbers to the stock suspension? Just curious.


CJC response:

We have not run it on an RTI ramp unfortunately but we intend to

My response and questions:

Do you know if you can run 37s on the stock rims with the Carli setup and not rub when compressed and turned?

CJC response:

Sadly no. They're too tucked in, so you get rub on the radius arms and sway bar at full steering lock. To fit 37s on a Ram truck we recommend a +18 to +27 offset wheel that is no wider than 9,” as well as some mild trimming of the plastic fender liner and maybe pinch weld depending on the tire.

and a followup about the same issue

+18 to +25 tends to provide the best compromise between just clearing the body but also clearing the suspension with little to no plastic trimming being required.

So I hope this info helps some of you.

I'm still on the fence. To install the Carli suspension system, it will also require new rims and tires. And then I loose the spare under the bed.
Got to think about this some.

Those responses, while professional and kind, sure do sound like a solid way to get folks to buy the entire package!!

Sales at its finest.



Pure anecdote--I added Bilstein 5100s to my 2016 cummins 2500 truck that was stock height and stock springs (i also did not want any lift) and they noticeably improved the ride quality of that truck. For ~$500 total invested, i was very very pleased.

I'll probably do the same on my new DRW although on a 1-ton i dont expect much, if any, improvement from shocks.

 

[jetrinka]

I've also put 5100's on my stock height 01 Cummins and they were great. They do actually make 5100's for stock height applications of other vehicles.

That being said I wonder if the 5100's they make for these trucks, though listed as for a lifted application, would fit the PW fine due to its factory lift? I'd assume the "lifted application" would pertain to non-PW trucks.

 

[Brewbud]

If you already have 4600s it is not worth going to a 5100. I do run 5100s on my lifted Jeep. They are good for the price. They do start to heat up and fade pretty quickly if they pushed hard for an extended period. I have had to replace one because the seals started leaking, but they have been on for a long time. Good shock for most people.

 

[el_barto]

If you already have 4600s it is not worth going to a 5100. I do run 5100s on my lifted Jeep. They are good for the price. They do start to heat up and fade pretty quickly if they pushed hard for an extended period. I have had to replace one because the seals started leaking, but they have been on for a long time. Good shock for most people.

Yeah I know someone with 5100s on their Chevy 2500…they got so hot while driving down a dirt road while towing a 5er that they dust boots melted

 

[jetrinka]

Interesting. So it makes sense, if one is upgrading from 4600's, to just step up to Fox or King.

 

[Crusty old shellback]

Got a response back from Filthy motorsports that ADS and RADFLO do not make shocks for the PW.
Seems we are limited in good choices.
Talking with a buddy today while on our way to the Mint 400, he said go with Kings. Said Fox has gone more main stream and are basically assembly line products. Cheaper materials and stock tuning. Nothing custom.
King is still all hand assembled and custom tuned.

 

[jadmt]

Teraflex makes Falcon shocks and they are hand made in utah start to finish. I had them on my jeep and awesome shocks. I keep bugging them to come out with a set for the power wagons.

 

[AnthonyD1978]

As far as putting in a bed slider as mentioned before, it will not work for my usage. When I'm doing race support, I carry anything from 40" race tires/rims, 110G axillary fuel tanks, 55G drums of race fuel, or 110G pressure probe for refueling the race truck. So putting one of the bed slide boxes in, I'm not sure it would handle the weight on top. Plus there really wouldn't be anything put inside of it as it wouldn't fit.
Also with all the stuff I carry, that's the last thing I want is to have it lift it higher to get it in the bed of a lifted truck.

FWIW: My bed slide is rated for 1000 lbs. They have one for 1500 from what I remember. You payload on your PW shouldn't be more than that.

AnthonyD1978,
I'm with you. Down in Baja or out in Nevada, the nearest town could be a days drive or more. I too carry a plug kit when traveling outside the normal area. Otherwise I'd call AAA. But they don't service the neverland down in Baja.

If I was to go with 37's. I'd probably look at a swing out tire carrier mounted to the rear bumper in some way. That wa the bed is still usable.

I looked at the swing out carriers too, but they have drawbacks as well. Everything is a give and take when trying to find the best solution.

 

[el_barto]

So looping back in this thread to discuss stock-length upgrade shocks…I’ve been thinking/reading about shocks a bit…

Stock PW shocks (Bilstein) are Digressive (firmer with small displacement, softens with larger displacement). This improves cornering on the road (small displacement) but makes for a relatively stiff/uncomfortable ride over small/medium bumps on the highway, washboard roads. I had Icon shocks, which are also Digressive, on my last truck. It handled really well on the street, tighter than stock, but I was pretty stiff on dirt roads and some speed bumps were brutal.

Fox 2.0 shocks are going to be Progressive. They are going to sacrifice on-road cornering for a smoother ride on washboard roads , and float nicely over small/medium bumps on the highway (think: Raptor). But, be less settled on big bumps offroad such as rock crawling.

Higher end Fox and King will be closer to a Linear valving that should be smooth on road as well as rock crawling.

I think I would like to replace my stock shocks with a Progressive shock, like a Fox 2.0 to get the ride I really desire from this truck. I do some rocky trails/semi-technical wheeling, but I think I would be happier trading some performance there for a smoother, Cadillac ride on the highway and washboard roads. Upgraded bump stops* should help smooth things out offroad where some a Progressive shock might otherwise be a bit harsh.

*i just bought sumo blue for the front, not installed yet… And Will probably get Thuren boogie bumps for the rear.

Does anyone know the extended + compressed lengths of the OEM shocks? I saw a YouTube video where the guy replaced the OEM shocks with Bilstein 5160s, and the shocks for Ram 2500 +2-2.5”F/ +1”R look to be about right…I think maybe be Fox 2.0 for Ram 2500 +0-1.5”F/R shocks might actually fit fine, based on their compressed/extended length compared to the Bilsteins.

Ok that’s enough rambling for now…

 

[Brewbud]

So looping back in this thread to discuss stock-length upgrade shocks…I’ve been thinking/reading about shocks a bit…

Stock PW shocks (Bilstein) are Digressive (firmer with small displacement, softens with larger displacement). This improves cornering on the road (small displacement) but makes for a relatively stiff/uncomfortable ride over small/medium bumps on the highway, washboard roads. I had Icon shocks, which are also Digressive, on my last truck. It handled really well on the street, tighter than stock, but I was pretty stiff on dirt roads and some speed bumps were brutal.

Fox 2.0 shocks are going to be Progressive. They are going to sacrifice on-road cornering for a smoother ride on washboard roads , and float nicely over small/medium bumps on the highway (think: Raptor). But, be less settled on big bumps offroad such as rock crawling.

Higher end Fox and King will be closer to a Linear valving that should be smooth on road as well as rock crawling.

I think I would like to replace my stock shocks with a Progressive shock, like a Fox 2.0 to get the ride I really desire from this truck. I do some rocky trails/semi-technical wheeling, but I think I would be happier trading some performance there for a smoother, Cadillac ride on the highway and washboard roads. Upgraded bump stops* should help smooth things out offroad where some a Progressive shock might otherwise be a bit harsh.

*i just bought sumo blue for the front, not installed yet… And Will probably get Thuren boogie bumps for the rear.

Does anyone know the extended + compressed lengths of the OEM shocks? I saw a YouTube video where the guy replaced the OEM shocks with Bilstein 5160s, and the shocks for Ram 2500 +2-2.5”F/ +1”R look to be about right…I think maybe be Fox 2.0 for Ram 2500 +0-1.5”F/R shocks might actually fit fine, based on their compressed/extended length compared to the Bilsteins.

Ok that’s enough rambling for now…

Sounds like a good plan. If you can afford to go with a larger diameter shock it definitely improves the ride at both ends.

 

[Trail_Wagon]

So looping back in this thread to discuss stock-length upgrade shocks…I’ve been thinking/reading about shocks a bit…

Stock PW shocks (Bilstein) are Digressive (firmer with small displacement, softens with larger displacement). This improves cornering on the road (small displacement) but makes for a relatively stiff/uncomfortable ride over small/medium bumps on the highway, washboard roads. I had Icon shocks, which are also Digressive, on my last truck. It handled really well on the street, tighter than stock, but I was pretty stiff on dirt roads and some speed bumps were brutal.

Fox 2.0 shocks are going to be Progressive. They are going to sacrifice on-road cornering for a smoother ride on washboard roads , and float nicely over small/medium bumps on the highway (think: Raptor). But, be less settled on big bumps offroad such as rock crawling.

Higher end Fox and King will be closer to a Linear valving that should be smooth on road as well as rock crawling.

I think I would like to replace my stock shocks with a Progressive shock, like a Fox 2.0 to get the ride I really desire from this truck. I do some rocky trails/semi-technical wheeling, but I think I would be happier trading some performance there for a smoother, Cadillac ride on the highway and washboard roads. Upgraded bump stops* should help smooth things out offroad where some a Progressive shock might otherwise be a bit harsh.

*i just bought sumo blue for the front, not installed yet… And Will probably get Thuren boogie bumps for the rear.

Does anyone know the extended + compressed lengths of the OEM shocks? I saw a YouTube video where the guy replaced the OEM shocks with Bilstein 5160s, and the shocks for Ram 2500 +2-2.5”F/ +1”R look to be about right…I think maybe be Fox 2.0 for Ram 2500 +0-1.5”F/R shocks might actually fit fine, based on their compressed/extended length compared to the Bilsteins.

Ok that’s enough rambling for now…

I think you are spot on with your appraisal of the different shock theories.

I don't care for digressive valving at all, harsh on the small stuff and mushy on big things.

The Fox Performance Series 2.0 IFP are fantastic for JL wranglers and I expect they will be nice for my PW too. 95% of people will be happy with their small bump compliance, decent rebound control and overall performance and comfort. Long washboard roads become so much more pleasant. This would be my go-to for stock height.

The larger fox and King 2.5's are very nice, especially with DSCs. Larger shocks are always firm, but that can be tuned out a little with flutter valves and bleed shims. Accutune, Carlie and others can tune them for you. I have the equipment and knowledge to tune my own.

When my PW eventually gets here, I'm leaning towards the 2.0 foxes with upgraded bump stops. But I am considering some 2.5's with DSCs because sometimes the bed will be empty and sometimes there will be a 1100 pound Scout camper back there. The adjustability would be nice.

 

[el_barto]

I think you are spot on your appraisal of the different shock theories.

I don't care for digressive valving at all, harsh on small stuff and mushy on big things.

The fox 2.0 IFP are fantastic for JL wranglers and I expect they will be nice for my pw too. 95% of people happy with thier small bump compliance, decent rebound control and overall performance and comfort. Long washboard roads become so much more pleasant. This would be my go-to for stock height.

The larger fox and King 2.5's are very nice, especially with DSCs. Larger shocks are always firm, but that can be tuned out a little with flutter valves and bleed shims. Accutune, Carlie and others can tune them for you. I have the equipment and knowledge to tune my own.

When my pw eventually gets here, I'm leaning towards the 2.0 foxes with upgraded bump stops. But I am considering some 2.5's with DSCs because sometimes the bed will be empty and sometimes there will be a 1100 pound Scout camper back there. The adjustability would be nice.

Good info.

I will say about the Icons I had on my last truck (Chevy Colorado, Icon 2.5 Front Coilovers, Icon 2.0 rear shocks): they were firm, but they handled really good around the twisties…for a truck. At one point I noticed the front sway bar link was broken…Not sure how long it had been like that but the truck still handled fine without a functional front swaybar. Obviously, that’s not what you’re normally looking for in a (offroad oriented) truck, but worth noting, and it’s probably actually preferable for an offroad-oriented truck to get its on-road roll stiffness from a swaybar rather than the shocks…especially when you have a swaybar disconnect for offroad!

Meanwhile digressive shocks are definitely preferable for high performance cars because you add roll stiffness for cornering, but it can be softer over large bumps like potholes.

 

[el_barto]

Emailed Thuren and they advised that the Fox 2.0’s listed for Ram 2500’s with 0” to 1.5” will fit on a stock PW BUT they will limit rear droop travel. I’m guessing not by much, but worth noting.

 

[Crusty old shellback]

I'm starting to rethink things here. I have several big dips on my street that I travel every day. Also a couple of speed bumps at work. A few things I've noticed.

Going thru the dips at some speed, it never upsets the truck, it just soaks it right up.

On the speed bumps, it will soak them up as well, but I sometimes get a little kicker from the rear when it goes over the speed bump. Maybe some stiffer shocks?

Only thing that's harsh is when I hit a pothole. The sudden drop in the hole, then sharp edge coming out of it jolts me in the truck. Not sure if there is really a way to overcome that.

The only other issue is some sway in the truck when going over some uneven roads. It will sway side to side some.

So I guess the big question is, will a $5K suspension really make that big of a difference?

I still haven't had the chance yet to go seriously offroad in the truck.

 

[Brewbud]

I'm starting to rethink things here. I have several big dips on my street that I travel every day. Also a couple of speed bumps at work. A few things I've noticed.

Going thru the dips at some speed, it never upsets the truck, it just soaks it right up.

On the speed bumps, it will soak them up as well, but I sometimes get a little kicker from the rear when it goes over the speed bump. Maybe some stiffer shocks?

Only thing that's harsh is when I hit a pothole. The sudden drop in the hole, then sharp edge coming out of it jolts me in the truck. Not sure if there is really a way to overcome that.

The only other issue is some sway in the truck when going over some uneven roads. It will sway side to side some.

So I guess the big question is, will a $5K suspension really make that big of a difference?

I still haven't had the chance yet to go seriously offroad in the truck.

It made a huge difference in my truck but I don't have a PW. From your comment, I would say a PW rides better than a stock non-PW 2500 from the factory. When I hit a dip at speed in my stock 2500 it didn't like it. It wanted to dive and then launch then dive again. Modified it just feels fun - and at much faster speeds. Very controlled and there is no jarring feeling.

Quality shocks that can be rebuilt can be tuned to your primary driving style or terrain. It can be give and take though. You may give up some street ride for dirt performance and vice-versa. One advantage of bigger diameter shocks is they can be tuned to accommodate a wider range of terrain and driving styles. There is less give and take. Of course, you only see better performance if the valving is properly set up for the suspension and the weight of the truck. That is why Thuren and Carli spend so much time with R&D on these.

I agree with your wife though Crusty, you need 37s on that wagon. That will help with the potholes LOL.

 

[AnthonyD1978]

You drive a 7500lb truck. It will not handle like a car.

I have the Pintop kit and off road on more difficult terrain and more frequently than most people. Honestly, it’s probably not worth the Pintop kit on a power wagon. I would recommend one of the Carli fox setups and looking back I could have saved some money by doing that and I bet been perfectly happy

If you don’t mind spending the coin then I would wait for the new Carli live valve shocks that should drop next year. They should be the best of both worlds. I will probably upgrade to them and sell my Pintop shocks.