Yet Another Lifter Failure Story

[mbarber84]

Where is Cummins getting their parts to build a motor with. I always thought Cummins was the best of the best. If they knew of a potential issue, why would they take 5 +/- years to address? Is this based on how many trucks out there actually have an issue? Just seems to me that any engine builder such as Cummins, would address an issue such as this, way before now especially after a slight re-fresh of the motor. Kind a makes you want to slap a Cummins engineer in the face and ask what gives.

They have made several changes in suppliers from 19-25 in an effort to get things on track. What you’re seeing isn’t an “all” issue. It’s a “some” issue. Not much different than what was experienced with the 2022 Aisin trucks and the bad snap rings in the transmissions. Only difference is, the failures are more spread out and have happened intermittently as production continued across almost 7 years. Cummins is aware of the issues, has conducted (and is still conducting) extensive research and testing to determine where the issues lie, and have made changes along the way to get things straightened out. But you have to keep in mind that there are only so many suppliers capable of producing the volume of parts supply necessary to build the number of engines they are producing. They recently changed the roller supplier for 2025, it’ll be interesting to see how this plays out when the 25’s start logging mileage.

 

[BlueOx2500]

They have made several changes in suppliers from 19-25 in an effort to get things on track. What you’re seeing isn’t an “all” issue. It’s a “some” issue. Not much different than what was experienced with the 2022 Aisin trucks and the bad snap rings in the transmissions. Only difference is, the failures are more spread out and have happened intermittently as production continued across almost 7 years. Cummins is aware of the issues, has conducted (and is still conducting) extensive research and testing to determine where the issues lie, and have made changes along the way to get things straightened out. But you have to keep in mind that there are only so many suppliers capable of producing the volume of parts supply necessary to build the number of engines they are producing. They recently changed the roller supplier for 2025, it’ll be interesting to see how this plays out when the 25’s start logging mileage.

Right, there is no way this issue is as blown-up as the internet would make you think it is. I know there have been bigger scandals in life and even for Cummins there have been big ones, but this would be ridiculous if the lifter design and/or supply was so flawed that all 2019-present were just ticking time-bombs.

And, what about Duramax and Powerstrokes making the same typewriter noise?

 

[PNWDiesel]

OEM intervals are neglect to you? great advice

lol you’re obviously very passionate about OEM intervals and OCIs. To each their own.

 

[AH64ID]

lol you’re obviously very passionate about OEM intervals and OCIs. To each their own.

Nah, just find advice from someone who considers OEM intervals neglect to be hilarious and useless.

 

[mbarber84]

Right, there is no way this issue is as blown-up as the internet would make you think it is. I know there have been bigger scandals in in life and even for Cummins there have been big ones, but this would be ridiculous if the lifter design and/or supply was so flawed that all 2019-present were just ticking time-bombs.

And, what about Duramax and Powerstrokes making the same typewriter noise?

It’s not a huge issue. But it is an issue.
Up until the 2019 models, valvetrain failure of this sort was practically nonexistent. Sure, you had some trucks dropping valve seats, but even those aren’t all that common. Now that we’re seeing these lifters fail in very early life, it does make me question some of the decisions that have been made. There’s something to be said for simplicity and these lifters are significantly more complex than the old flat tappets.

In the discussions I’ve taken part in, of which there have been many, there seems to be two different modes of lifter failure “out there”. One has to do with the lower portion of the valvetrain. The interaction between the lifter roller and the cam gets to be unhealthy for a number of different reasons and the result is a damaged roller and potentially cam lobe. The other type of failure has more to do with the interaction between the hydraulic portion of the lifter and the upper valve train. There’s some theories that the hydraulic portion isn’t interacting as well as it could when it comes to absorbing some of the shock of the valve actuations. More to come on that aspect….

 

[BlueOx2500]

It’s not a huge issue. But it is an issue.
Up until the 2019 models, valvetrain failure of this sort was practically nonexistent. Sure, you had some trucks dropping valve seats, but even those aren’t all that common. Now that we’re seeing these lifters fail in very early life, it does make me question some of the decisions that have been made. There’s something to be said for simplicity and these lifters are significantly more complex than the old flat tappets.

In the discussions I’ve taken part in, of which there have been many, there seems to be two different modes of lifter failure “out there”. One has to do with the lower portion of the valvetrain. The interaction between the lifter roller and the cam gets to be unhealthy for a number of different reasons and the result is a damaged roller and potentially cam lobe. The other type of failure has more to do with the interaction between the hydraulic portion of the lifter and the upper valve train. There’s some theories that the hydraulic portion isn’t interacting as well as it could when it comes to absorbing some of the shock of the valve actuations. More to come on that aspect….

Thanks for the reply.

I'm not disputing there is an issue out there, but I am trying to break down the prevalence and primarily the warning sign(s)/symptoms. All I want at this point is for the truck to be reliable.

Regarding a warning sign, can we discuss the infamous "typewriter tick"? This noise seems to be very prevalent and across all three manufacturers and the actual determination of what the "typewriter" tick actually sounds like is part of the problem because it is somewhat subjective to the listener's ears. In your opinion, is this indeed the first indication that the engine is going to grenade due to lifter/cam interaction?

Why did all three manufacturers go to roller lifters? (best I can tell all three have based on internet search) Saving on maintenance for lash adjustment is the stated reason, but I got a feeling that's not the real reason. Is this somehow related to the EPA?

All of this just makes me want to get rid of my '22 Cummins and get a damn gasser...and then a saw this video : Hemi lifter failure

I wish someone would do a video about a Cummins as in-depth as that guy did for Hemi.

 

[mbarber84]

Thanks for the reply.

I'm not disputing there is an issue out there, but I am trying to break down the prevalence and primarily the warning sign(s)/symptoms. All I want at this point is for the truck to be reliable.

On the whole, these trucks are very reliable. The lifter failure, while it is concerning, is not a widespread issue. It has gained a lot of attention and notoriety more so because it’s a unique and uncommon type of failure for a Cummins engine when compared to the steadfast reliability the older generation valvetrain demonstrated.

Regarding a warning sign, can we discuss the infamous "typewriter tick"? This noise seems to be very prevalent and across all three manufacturers and the actual determination of what the "typewriter" tick actually sounds like is part of the problem because it is somewhat subjective to the listener's ears. In your opinion, is this indeed the first indication that the engine is going to grenade due to lifter/cam interaction?

The “typewriter tick” shouldn’t occur on these engines if everything is in spec and functioning correctly. The valvetrain is actually quieter than the previous flat tappet arrangement found on all previous generations of the 5.9 & 6.7 engines. Noise was actually one of the reasons Ram opted to switch the valvetrain over to hydraulic roller lifter. This move reduced the “NVH” (noise, vibration, and harshness) of the powertrain over previous years. Based on the conversations that I’ve had, the trucks demonstrating the “typewriter tick” after an oil change may be demonstrating the initial signs of lifter issues, but that has yet to be conclusively determined. As i mentioned previously in this thread, there is some theory that the light “tick” that is heard could potentially be the hydraulic portion of the lifter assembly reacting adversely to the upper valve movement. The theory involves an inability for the HLA to adequately “cushion” the valve actuation, resulting in a light tap or tick. This is currently something that is under investigation and analysis at the engineering level.

Why did all three manufacturers go to roller lifters? (best I can tell all three have based on internet search) Saving on maintenance for lash adjustment is the stated reason, but I got a feeling that's not the real reason. Is this somehow related to the EPA?

Can’t speak for the other brands, but the move to hydraulic roller lifters in the 2019+ Ram HD’s was done chiefly to reduce the “NVH” of the platform. As a bonus, it eliminated the need for a valve lash adjustment, thus reducing the overall cost of ownership and maintenance requirements. It is my understanding, based on countless conversations I’ve had with multiple people within both companies, that the decision to move to a hydraulic roller lifter design was ultimately made by Stellantis, not Cummins. Cummins’ current B6.7 commercial engines are still the tried and true flat tappet design they have always been.

All of this just makes me want to get rid of my '22 Cummins and get a damn gasser...and then a saw this video : Hemi lifter failure

It’s really not bad enough to warrant offloading the truck. Best thing you can do is keep up on your maintenance, document your service work, and do what you can to minimize any chance of losing your powertrain warranty. If you plan to keep the truck long term, I would recommend just putting some money aside here and there over the coming years. If yours should fail outside of warranty, have the lifters replaced with the flat tappet conversion kit made by Hamilton and then you’re set. Otherwise, run it until it’s out of warranty and then offload it.

I wish someone would do a video about a Cummins as in-depth as that guy did for Hemi.

I would very much like to do this. However, it takes a lot of time to put one together, and I need worn components to demonstrate the causes of failure. It would be a good video for my YouTube channel. I may try to get one done in the coming months. It’s just difficult to find the free time that’s required to make a quality video.

 

[Deltron]

If I only had all the money that these guys throw away on early oil changes I could pay cash for a 2025 . Does anyone really think that the factory would be anything but conservative on oil change interval ? All the research and science behind additive packages that go into oil development and people still get their brain stuck on thinking sooner is better in regards to oil change intervals . Defies logic .

My dealer that's treated me exceptionally well and is fully aware I do all maintenance told me to change oil every 7,500 since I'm towing. He said they've only had one cam failure but talking to other service departments the consensus is 15,000 towing is too long.

 

[AH64ID]

My dealer that's treated me exceptionally well and is fully aware I do all maintenance told me to change oil every 7,500 since I'm towing. He said they've only had one cam failure but talking to other service departments the consensus is 15,000 towing is too long.

UOA would prove or disprove that pretty quick, from what I’ve seen 15K is pretty easy on the oil. These motors just aren’t hard on the oil when everything is working correctly.

 

[BlueOx2500]

On the whole, these trucks are very reliable. The lifter failure, while it is concerning, is not a widespread issue. It has gained a lot of attention and notoriety more so because it’s a unique and uncommon type of failure for a Cummins engine when compared to the steadfast reliability the older generation valvetrain demonstrated.

The “typewriter tick” shouldn’t occur on these engines if everything is in spec and functioning correctly. The valvetrain is actually quieter than the previous flat tappet arrangement found on all previous generations of the 5.9 & 6.7 engines. Noise was actually one of the reasons Ram opted to switch the valvetrain over to hydraulic roller lifter. This move reduced the “NVH” (noise, vibration, and harshness) of the powertrain over previous years. Based on the conversations that I’ve had, the trucks demonstrating the “typewriter tick” after an oil change may be demonstrating the initial signs of lifter issues, but that has yet to be conclusively determined. As i mentioned previously in this thread, there is some theory that the light “tick” that is heard could potentially be the hydraulic portion of the lifter assembly reacting adversely to the upper valve movement. The theory involves an inability for the HLA to adequately “cushion” the valve actuation, resulting in a light tap or tick. This is currently something that is under investigation and analysis at the engineering level.

Can’t speak for the other brands, but the move to hydraulic roller lifters in the 2019+ Ram HD’s was done chiefly to reduce the “NVH” of the platform. As a bonus, it eliminated the need for a valve lash adjustment, thus reducing the overall cost of ownership and maintenance requirements. It is my understanding, based on countless conversations I’ve had with multiple people within both companies, that the decision to move to a hydraulic roller lifter design was ultimately made by Stellantis, not Cummins. Cummins’ current B6.7 commercial engines are still the tried and true flat tappet design they have always been.

It’s really not bad enough to warrant offloading the truck. Best thing you can do is keep up on your maintenance, document your service work, and do what you can to minimize any chance of losing your powertrain warranty. If you plan to keep the truck long term, I would recommend just putting some money aside here and there over the coming years. If yours should fail outside of warranty, have the lifters replaced with the flat tappet conversion kit made by Hamilton and then you’re set. Otherwise, run it until it’s out of warranty and then offload it.

I would very much like to do this. However, it takes a lot of time to put one together, and I need worn components to demonstrate the causes of failure. It would be a good video for my YouTube channel. I may try to get one done in the coming months. It’s just difficult to find the free time that’s required to make a quality video.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I feel better about the truck now.

No need to rush and get a 2025 anyway since they did nothing with the lifter design and I don't really like any of the color/equipment options. Where the heck is the Tungsten HD?

Not to sound like an a-hole, but my biggest beef with doing the flat tappet conversion is who to contract to do it so it's done right and the downtime it will take to accomplish. But a very close second to that is that I already paid $100k for this truck, so another $7-$10k dumped in to keep it running is quite frustrating to say the least. But, it's not required yet so I'll keep on truckin'.

Thanks

 

[mbarber84]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I feel better about the truck now.

No need to rush and get a 2025 anyway since they did nothing with the lifter design and I don't really like any of the color/equipment options. Where the heck is the Tungsten HD?

They did change supplier for the rollers on the lifters for 2025. That may end up being a good move, but too early to tell.

Not to sound like an a-hole, but my biggest beef with doing the flat tappet conversion is who to contract to do it so it's done right and the downtime it will take to accomplish. But a very close second to that is that I already paid $100k for this truck, so another $7-$10k dumped in to keep it running is quite frustrating to say the least. But, it's not required yet so I'll keep on truckin'.

Thanks

There are several shops / mechanics that can reliably execute the lifter swap with great precision and reliability. I wouldn’t be too concerned about that. But I do agree with you that it’s somewhat disappointing to have to drop another $7k+ to correct something that should never have been changed in the first place. My personal opinion is that the change to hydraulic lifters in these engines was the single worst move Ram has made in the almost 20 years that the 6.7 has been in production.

 

[T143]

My truck has the famous typewriter tick, had is since 4000km and now has 21000km I have done oil analysis and posted it in what did you do to your Ram today the tin content is very high and that indicates the valve train is not happy. Ram Australia says 10W30 oil only and they listened to my truck and gave it a clean bill of health, they did not care about the tick or the oil tests. For the money we pay here I was expecting more sympathy but who was I kidding. So the flat tappet conversion is lying on the table not sure when. Only time will tell. As a side note I have to give my local dealer a 10/10 for accomodating and trying to resolve concerns I had a few weird ones and all sorted except my typewriter will not be removed by them.

 

[mbarber84]

My truck has the famous typewriter tick, had is since 4000km and now has 21000km I have done oil analysis and posted it in what did you do to your Ram today the tin content is very high and that indicates the valve train is not happy. Ram Australia says 10W30 oil only and they listened to my truck and gave it a clean bill of health, they did not care about the tick or the oil tests. For the money we pay here I was expecting more sympathy but who was I kidding. So the flat tappet conversion is lying on the table not sure when. Only time will tell. As a side note I have to give my local dealer a 10/10 for accomodating and trying to resolve concerns I had a few weird ones and all sorted except my typewriter will not be removed by them.

Have you tried removing the valve cover and inspecting your rocker ball seats and push rod cups for signs of galling / spalling ?

 

[Nick]

My dealer that's treated me exceptionally well and is fully aware I do all maintenance told me to change oil every 7,500 since I'm towing. He said they've only had one cam failure but talking to other service departments the consensus is 15,000 towing is too long.

That is not science talking . . Get an oil analysis at 7500 then 15 and compare the 2 there you will find your answer as to when to change your oil

 

[Nick]

That is not science talking . . Get an oil analysis at 7500 then 15 and compare the 2 there you will find your answer as to when to change your oil

 

[BlueOx2500]

They did change supplier for the rollers on the lifters for 2025. That may end up being a good move, but too early to tell.

There are several shops / mechanics that can reliably execute the lifter swap with great precision and reliability. I wouldn’t be too concerned about that. But I do agree with you that it’s somewhat disappointing to have to drop another $7k+ to correct something that should never have been changed in the first place. My personal opinion is that the change to hydraulic lifters in these engines was the single worst move Ram has made in the almost 20 years that the 6.7 has been in production.

What do you think the odds are there will be a system wide TSB / recall for the rollers? I'm thinking I have better odds in Vegas.

 

[BlueOx2500]

Have you tried removing the valve cover and inspecting your rocker ball seats and push rod cups for signs of galling / spalling ?

That's something I'd like to see, but I have no way to do that myself. I suppose the dealer would do it if I specifically requested and paid for it.

I'd also love to see how much soot is caked on the grid heater and how that bolt is doing...I try to shake the bolt once in a while to see if it's loose and so far it's not. I just wonder if running the R95 is helping to keep the soot load down now...I suspect it is since the DPF never shows anything anymore no matter what kind of drive/idle I do.

 

[mbarber84]

What do you think the odds are there will be a system wide TSB / recall for the rollers? I'm thinking I have better odds in Vegas.

I don’t think there will ever be a recall. I think the most we can hope for is an updated part or better QC on parts so that if a truck experiences a lifter failure, the new replacement components will either be of better quality or a slightly different design with a focus on better durability and accuracy to specs.

 

[BlueOx2500]

Have you tried removing the valve cover and inspecting your rocker ball seats and push rod cups for signs of galling / spalling ?

Didn't you also demonstrate a way to do a non-invasive borescope to check for lifter issues? How difficult is that provided you have the camera equipment?

 

[T143]

Have you tried removing the valve cover and inspecting your rocker ball seats and push rod cups for signs of galling / spalling ?

No mate but will do that the week of the 10 of March my truck only fires up if its going to work except if I need to move the caravan.
Will update once done and upload photos too.