Yet Another Lifter Failure Story

[tex_hd]

Tl;dr - If you live in or around the Atlanta area with a fifth gen rattle, go see Ram Diesel Specialist and have them install the Hamilton Flat Tappet conversion kit. You won't regret it.

I wanted to take a moment to document my story, which like many others, began with a slight tick. I've linked a few videos at the end of the post that show the symptom pre-fix and a tribute video for the fix being installed. A little context that should answer most of the initial questions:

1. 2023 RAM 2500 SO 6.7 ISB
2. Climate/Locale: Southeast US (Atlanta)
3. Current Mileage/Hours/Idle %: 38,500/950/16%
4. Oil Used/OCI: Valv PB 5w40, Shell T6 10w30/Every 7500 miles
5. All powertrain/emissions equipment are factory and still under full warranty

I originally noticed the faint tick around 24,000 miles at high idle when at operating temperature. Over time, this faint tick became a loud rattle and very pronounced in tow-haul mode (undoubtedly from higher operating characteristics). I began searching here and over at CumminsForum to see if others were experiencing the same issue, as well as to informally confirm my suspicion that it was likely valve train noise from the HLAs. NOTE: I'm not going to rehash the fifth gen HLA failure modes here. This is well documented on this forum and over at cumminsforum.com

Here's a warm idle video, a high idle video, and a loaded power brake video all documenting the rattle symptom. This is what I was working with...

NOTE: I'm intentionally leaving out dealer names here, but if you love in or around the Atlanta area, I'd be happy to share specifics in a PM.

Enter diagnosis attempt #1: I called around to see how many diesel techs each dealer had, and if they had encountered the valve train failure common to these fifth gens. Unsurprisingly, many (if not all) of the dealers inside the perimeter had one diesel tech or none at all, and no dealer in Atlanta claimed to have any experience with valve train failure. I ended up taking it to a reputable dealer in Gwinnett county who claimed that "all of their techs were diesel certified", but most importantly, they had appointment availability inside of a week. What a miserable bunch of humans... My truck sat at their shop for almost 3 weeks with a tech who only wanted to treat me like an idiot (as if I've never owned a diesel engine) and who insisted that the noise was a "loose heat shield". He also berated me for "using the wrong oil" in the truck (I was using Valv PB 5w40 at the time) and that it was somehow related. After 3 weeks of no progress, I demanded to get the truck back with writing which stated they confirmed there was a mechanical issue, but were unable to diagnose it.

Enter diagnosis attempt #2: Back on the phone - I found a few dealers in North Atlanta that had diesel techs, but were booked out for weeks. It's important to note here that none of the dealers I ever worked with were willing to provide a loaner, nor was RamCares willing to reimburse a rental. I finally found a "truck center" which seemed knowledgeable on the RAM HD platform, but also claimed they had never encountered valve train failure on a fifth gen because "the Cummins is too good for that". What a moron that guy ended up being. The truck was in their shop for 72 days. 14 days to finally diagnose the issue as "scissor gear failure" (go figure), but would require cam, lifter and rocker replacement. I chose at the time to not argue about the scissor gear diagnosis because it landed the repair I was seeking. They sent several pictures of the cam which definitely had strike damage from what I thought would be collapsed lifters. Turns out, after finally getting the truck back, the tech agreed. His notes indicated that he found several collapsed lifters, cam damage and a few other minor things that appeared unrelated, but no mention of the scissor gear. What I didn't know was things were about to get much worse...

Within about 200 miles of the repair, the rattle returned with a vengeance. I had a hard time believing lifters would fail that fast, but it sure seemed like they had. I drove it for a few thousand miles on a couple of oil changes (by now I was running T6 10w30) to no avail.

Enter repair #2: I'd finally had enough, and after watching @cumminsturbofreak go through his saga, I decided I was going to switch to Hamilton's conversion kit. I spent an hour or so on the phone with Zach at Hamilton to learn more about the kit, and since I'm fortunate enough to be right down the road from Geno's Garage, I took it to Brennan and Dustin at Ram Diesel Specialist at Geno's recommendation. These guys are the next best thing to sliced bread. Not only did the install the conversion, but they uncovered why the valve train had failed so spectacularly a second time: the idiot dealer installed a trunion upside down. We're still perplexed at how someone could even do that without noticing. This in turn caused the cam to wobble in the bearings, which also had to be replaced. Engine came out a second time...

Here we are now - I'm a thousand miles down the road on this overhaul, and I couldn't be happier. The truck sounds like a fourth gen, no rattles, and the throttle response is quite improved.

Here's a tribute video the shop put together to show everything coming apart and back together.

 

[cordeau700]

Great write up.

I have 22 SO with 43K and it sounds exactly like your videos. Deal is telling me its normal as well. This is crazy.

Do you have to use any special oil for the new conversion? I have read that our modern oil doesn't have enough zinc or something like that?

 

[tex_hd]

Great write up.

I have 22 SO with 43K and it sounds exactly like your videos. Deal is telling me its normal as well. This is crazy.

Do you have to use any special oil for the new conversion? I have read that our modern oil doesn't have enough zinc or something like that?

Definitely not normal.

Hamilton recommends stepping back to 15w40 post conversion. I asked Zach about the zinc numbers for that very reason. All of the quality oils have enough zinc and molybdenum numbers to exceed Hamilton's requirements without a Zinc treatment (zinc can also wreak havoc on emissions after treatment). He specifically mentioned Valv PB 15w40, which is what I prefer to run anyways. It's even the cheapest at Napa when they run their normal sales cycles (on sale right now for 16.99/gal).

 

[Will_T]

Nice documentation. I am unfamiliar with exactly what this rattle sounds like. In your videos, I do hear a sort of crackling, almost like metallic marbles rattling that is almost hiding behind the engine sound. Other than that crackling everything I hear sounds exactly like mine. Maybe what I hear is it? Or maybe my old ears are not picking up the lifter failure sound. What would be really nice if someone here was tech savvy enough to do like they do in the movies! You know, put the sound of the engine through some sort of audio separator and pull out only the lifter failure sound without, or with less, of all the other engine noise.

 

[Ostracize]

Nice documentation. I am unfamiliar with exactly what this rattle sounds like. In your videos, I do hear a sort of crackling, almost like metallic marbles rattling that is almost hiding behind the engine sound. Other than that crackling everything I hear sounds exactly like mine. Maybe what I hear is it? Or maybe my old ears are not picking up the lifter failure sound. What would be really nice if someone here was tech savvy enough to do like they do in the movies! You know, put the sound of the engine through some sort of audio separator and pull out only the lifter failure sound without, or with less, of all the other engine noise.

If you're hearing a variable volume and rpm following tick at idle that sounds like the tick of a typewriter keystroke... You have a lifter issue.
This is easiest to hear through the driver side wheel well.

 

[Will_T]

If you're hearing a variable volume and rpm following tick at idle that sounds like the tick of a typewriter keystroke... You have a lifter issue.
This is easiest to hear through the driver side wheel well.

I am not necessarily thinking I have an issue on my truck. But I listen to all these videos posted here with the sound and others say they hear it or say that's "definitely not normal". But I can't really hear anything in those clips that sounds different than my truck. Except that in the OP videos, I think I hear sort of a metallic crackling behind the normal clacking and knocking noise of the engine itself. But I don't hear anything in those videos that sounds like an old fashioned typewriter. Must just be my hearing can't detect that particular sound anymore.

 

[Ostracize]

I am not necessarily thinking I have an issue on my truck. But I listen to all these videos posted here with the sound and others say they hear it or say that's "definitely not normal". But I can't really hear anything in those clips that sounds different than my truck. Except that in the OP videos, I think I hear sort of a metallic crackling behind the normal clacking and knocking noise of the engine itself. But I don't hear anything in those videos that sounds like an old fashioned typewriter. Must just be my hearing can't detect that particular sound anymore.

I "hear" ya ... Lots of videos out there, some better than others, but in all of them, lifter tick can be quite hard to hear. Probably because most are recorded on their phone.. and phone mics are not great for this.
If you heard it in-person, you'd have a much easier time identifying it.

 

[mbarber84]

Fantastic write up and thank you for taking the time to go through it all.

I have attempted for over a year now to raise awareness of this issue, research modes of failure, document failures, and keep track of them via the spreadsheet I’ve been maintaining.

After a year of learning, I can say with confidence that this issue, while concerning and troubling, is not a prolific one, but nonetheless an issue that requires attention. I have made some incredible contacts in the right places, and I’ve learned beyond a shadow of a doubt that ….”they”…..are indeed aware these lifters are problematic. “They” have also been working on improving the situation since the 2019’s first hit the pavement. It seems like, from my understanding of it all, there have been many steps taken to reduce the number of premature lifter failures, however the problem persists. I’ve gathered information that seems to highlight quality control issues based at sub component manufacturers responsible for the production of both the lifter body, and the roller that is attached to the bottom of each lifter. These appear to be at the heart of many of these premature lifter failures. However there also seems to be some concern, based on conversations I’ve been involved with, that there are reasonable questions (many of which remain unanswered) as to how the upper portion, the hydraulic portion, reacts and functions in certain operating conditions.

I do know as fact, that “they” are working on all of this, I just don’t know if we will ever see any real “justice” outside of quiet changes to component suppliers or slight changes in design of the parts themselves. For all intents and purposes, for the foreseeable future at least, I think we’re all stuck with only two options: continue to operate and hope for the best, or wait until you experience a failure, at which point installing the Hamilton flat tappet conversion is the absolute best way to address and repair the failure.

 

[PNWDiesel]

Bought my 2024 3500 HO two weeks ago knowing the issues, and knowing of the flat tappet conversion mentioned on this forum. I’ve had buddies with hard miles on their 2020/2021 3500s with absolutely zero issues, one of them is really bad on oil change interval (refuses to do any oil changes outside what is listed in his manual, and continues to daily drive it (1.5 hours into work all highway miles, and 1.5 hours home) without any problems.

Granted, I only have 600 miles on my truck now (bought it with 9 miles) and it’s something I’m going to keep an eye on. If I’m still in warranty, it’ll go to a trusted dealer to handle it. If it’s outside of warranty thankfully there is a conversion kit to address it. Sucks this is even an issue with these motors, seems to be an issue with the Ford and GM motors as well so this isn’t just isolated to the Cummins from what I’ve seen around all the forums.

 

[BlueOx2500]

Bought my 2024 3500 HO two weeks ago knowing the issues, and knowing of the flat tappet conversion mentioned on this forum. I’ve had buddies with hard miles on their 2020/2021 3500s with absolutely zero issues, one of them is really bad on oil change interval (refuses to do any oil changes outside what is listed in his manual, and continues to daily drive it (1.5 hours into work all highway miles, and 1.5 hours home) without any problems.

Granted, I only have 600 miles on my truck now (bought it with 9 miles) and it’s something I’m going to keep an eye on. If I’m still in warranty, it’ll go to a trusted dealer to handle it. If it’s outside of warranty thankfully there is a conversion kit to address it. Sucks this is even an issue with these motors, seems to be an issue with the Ford and GM motors as well so this isn’t just isolated to the Cummins from what I’ve seen around all the forums.

Ford and GM too...right...that's what it looks like. So are we staring at a major design flaw charlie foxtrot across all three major manufacturers?

 

[AH64ID]

one of them is really bad on oil change interval (refuses to do any oil changes outside what is listed in his manual, and continues to daily drive it (1.5 hours into work all highway miles, and 1.5 hours home) without any problems.

Lol, why would you think that’s really bad on OCI!?

There is nothing wrong with what’s listed in the manual, and no evidence that following the manual is causing the premature lifter failure. To suggest that the oil needs changed more often to prolong lifter life is just expensive paranoia. Heck the OP of this thread changed his oil every 7500 miles and still had issues, but here you are suggesting that 3 hours of highway driving daily takes more frequent oil changes when the contrary is true.

 

[Nick]

If I only had all the money that these guys throw away on early oil changes I could pay cash for a 2025 . Does anyone really think that the factory would be anything but conservative on oil change interval ? All the research and science behind additive packages that go into oil development and people still get their brain stuck on thinking sooner is better in regards to oil change intervals . Defies logic .

 

[tex_hd]

If I only had all the money that these guys throw away on early oil changes I could pay cash for a 2025 . Does anyone really think that the factory would be anything but conservative on oil change interval ? All the research and science behind additive packages that go into oil development and people still get their brain stuck on thinking sooner is better in regards to oil change intervals . Defies logic .

I mean, I go straight off of the TBN which will be widely differentiated based on driving habits. 3 gallons of 15w40 and a stratapore filter is ~$70. I don’t see how that adds up to tens or hundreds of thousands over the useful life of a truck like this. It’s cheap, easy, and for me, entirely based on lab results.

I can say with certainty that OCI and type wasn’t a contributing factor to my sequential valve train failures. As for if manufacturers are “conservative”: meh… I think they’re incentivized to tell a compelling cost of ownership story

 

[PNWDiesel]

Lol, why would you think that’s really bad on OCI!?

There is nothing wrong with what’s listed in the manual, and no evidence that following the manual is causing the premature lifter failure. To suggest that the oil needs changed more often to prolong lifter life is just expensive paranoia. Heck the OP of this thread changed his oil every 7500 miles and still had issues, but here you are suggesting that 3 hours of highway driving daily takes more frequent oil changes when the contrary is true.

I didn’t say it was bad, I mentioned it because he does what a lot of what people here say you shouldn’t do with his truck to avoid the lifter issues.

Point is, I don’t think it’s anywhere near as bad as it’s stated when it comes to lifter failures as it’s talked about online. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

 

[tex_hd]

I didn’t say it was bad, I mentioned it because he does what a lot of what people here say you shouldn’t do with his truck to avoid the lifter issues.

Point is, I don’t think it’s anywhere near as bad as it’s stated when it comes to lifter failures as it’s talked about online. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

This is slightly confusing. I _think_ you meant to say “he’s done what most say helps to avoid valve train failures”

 

[AH64ID]

I didn’t say it was bad, I mentioned it because he does what a lot of what people here say you shouldn’t do with his truck to avoid the lifter issues.

Point is, I don’t think it’s anywhere near as bad as it’s stated when it comes to lifter failures as it’s talked about online. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

You did say it was bad, “really bad” actually.

OCI has not been tied to lifter issues in the least. They either fail or they don’t and it’s not based on oil or OCI.

 

[BlueOx2500]

I didn’t say it was bad, I mentioned it because he does what a lot of what people here say you shouldn’t do with his truck to avoid the lifter issues.

Point is, I don’t think it’s anywhere near as bad as it’s stated when it comes to lifter failures as it’s talked about online. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

Further evidence to question the frequency / legitimacy of lifter failure, or impending lifter failure is the noise itself we are talking about and how frequent the noise is in all three manufacturers.

Isolating and determining what noise we are talking about is crucial, and yet difficult it seems. I don't think the sporadic/erratic light ticky, tick (typewriter tick) is the lifters taking a dump. Otherwise all three manufacturers are having this problem. But, yet, that is of course possible, I just don't think probable. Furthermore, the intermittency of the typewriter tick as well as how long trucks go with it coming and going doesn't make sense to support impending mechanical failure of something rotating at such high speeds. However, I do know there are those that profess their trucks have had lifter malfunction/failure and this noise proceeded it. The problem here in the investigation is: was it correlated or just coincidence?

Videos that I've seen online of trucks that are unquestionably in trouble are one with louder consistent, rhythmic thumping/ticking/banging, whatever you want to call it.

 

[PNWDiesel]

You did say it was bad, “really bad” actually.

OCI has not been tied to lifter issues in the least. They either fail or they don’t and it’s not based on oil or OCI.

I said he was bad at oil changes (meaning he has gone well over what is listed in his manual for extreme duty / regular oil changes. He does not do any OCIs and has gone as far as 20k miles on an oil change towing heavy / etc… multiple times). His DPF system on the other hand has been crap the last two years and he does deal with constant regens so I know his oil is thin as hell. And yet he doesn’t have any lifter issues, even with all of that going on, so who cares.

Only used it as an example of if he can neglect his 2021 as bad as he does, and still not have issues (4 years into owning it and 130k miles on it) the lifter deal seems a bit overblown. Read it however you want, and do all the OCIs you wish (and I’ll continue to change my oil every 5-7k miles, as I did on my 21 EcoDiesel / LBZ and continue to do on my 1HDT, 4M40T, and ALH). Oil / filters are cheap, I have zero interest in sending off oil samples unless I start to suspect issues with the motor.

 

[Xflight29]

Where is Cummins getting their parts to build a motor with. I always thought Cummins was the best of the best. If they knew of a potential issue, why would they take 5 +/- years to address? Is this based on how many trucks out there actually have an issue? Just seems to me that any engine builder such as Cummins, would address an issue such as this, way before now especially after a slight re-fresh of the motor. Kind a makes you want to slap a Cummins engineer and ask, what gives.

 

[AH64ID]

I said he was bad at oil changes (meaning he has gone well over what is listed in his manual for extreme duty / regular oil changes. He does not do any OCIs and has gone as far as 20k miles on an oil change towing heavy / etc… multiple times). His DPF system on the other hand has been crap the last two years and he does deal with constant regens so I know his oil is thin as hell. And yet he doesn’t have any lifter issues, even with all of that going on, so who cares.

Only used it as an example of if he can neglect his 2021 as bad as he does, and still not have issues (4 years into owning it and 130k miles on it) the lifter deal seems a bit overblown. Read it however you want, and do all the OCIs you wish (and I’ll continue to change my oil every 5-7k miles, as I did on my 21 EcoDiesel / LBZ and continue to do on my 1HDT, 4M40T, and ALH). Oil / filters are cheap, I have zero interest in sending off oil samples unless I start to suspect issues with the motor.

OEM intervals are neglect to you? great advice