Towing with gas vs diesel

[Brutal_HO]

Well yeah, if you're going to be dragging a 15,000 lb. camper around then go for the most torque you can get. That's a no-brainer.

For MOST people, however, the diesel doesn't make any financial sense at all. The Hemi will tow great, is much easier to maintain, has no finnicky emissions system to worry over, has no $10k fuel injection system to worry over, is $10k less to buy up front, and runs on fuel that's currently $1.10/gallon less. Using real world owner data from Fuelly, we see that the Hemi averages about 13 MPG and the Cummins about 16 MPG. At current prices, assuming 1,500 miles per month driven, the Cummins will actually cost $54 MORE per month in fuel. There's just way too much cost and way too much hassle associated with the diesel. Some Guys buy them because it's a status symbol, but most would be much better off with the gas engine.

I really wish Ram would revamp the 6.4 to more closely compete with Ford's 7.3. That's the cat's meow.

FIFY

I tow 16K around in the Mountain west. Could a Hemi do it? Sure, but I've owned enough gas trucks to know I would not enjoy it. I think even if I lived in the flatlands, I'd want the diesel. Don't care about up front cost (recouped on the back side) or fuel costs or maintenance costs. Comfort and peace of mind are more valuable to me.

 

[troverman]

Gas engine = nothing to fail in the future that will be catastrophic and expensive = peace of mind

 

[pizzatots]

Adding after my last diesel. No keeping receipts just in case there’s bad gas or worries about water in fuel warnings.

 

[Jsboening]

Im going 2500 6.4 for:

-Extra payload (planning to tow my 30ft tt and have no worries if we want to bring dirt bikes)
-Cheaper, easier to find fuel
-No emissions stuff
-Owned a 1500 eco diesel and the EGR fires... DEF issues... SCR issues... too much crap to worry about
-Extra 10k up front
-Im old enough to no longer care what people think, no need to be in the diesel club.. just because

My current 5.7 1500 does a great job, would enjoy some extra payload, power, and suspension.. thinking of rear air ride.

Do it I really like my 6.4 limited Mega. Got the air ride too and love the leveling and being able to drop it for easy loading.

 

[Rekd]

Gas engine = nothing to fail in the future that will be catastrophic and expensive = peace of mind

Hahahahahahalolollololjajajajajajajajaja... oof!

Sorry, was laughing so hard I fell over backwards and hit my head and had to go get it bandaged but I'm OK now.

 

[techman]

I've been towing my 12K trailer with a GM 8.1 liter gas 4 speed for the past 15 years. It has been a love hate relationship. It did ok, but maintenance free.....no.

Now I'm waiting for my diesel to arrive to replace it. Why did I go diesel? IMHO, I think modern diesels are quieter/cleaner/more powerful and efficient. Yes, the complexity to achieve that can represent possible problems. But why assume that DEF/DPF and HPFP are all ticking time bombs? You certainly hear nightmare stories, but those are easy to find and fun to read. Sort of like gossip. It would be boring to read about a problem free truck. The factory warranty will be around for quite sometime to cover me too.

Also, to be honest, the wife was against a diesel. After the test drive she commented, this is quiet, comfortable, no diesel stink, and pulls like a freight train compared my soon to be retired gasser. Sold.

 

[troverman]

Hahahahahahalolollololjajajajajajajajaja... oof!

Sorry, was laughing so hard I fell over backwards and hit my head and had to go get it bandaged but I'm OK now.

I have no idea what you're laughing about. If an entire gas V8 fails and needs to be replaced, you're out maybe $8k for a new one. But that rarely happens; used engines are available, and rebuilding is also a cheaper option. If a Hemi eats a cam lobe - its not massive money. Contrast that with a diesel...if the HPFP fails, the dealership will charge you $10k to replace it and all the associated, required parts and cleaning and labor. If your glow plug tips break off - big money for cylinder / valve damage. DEF header failure, heater failures, DPF failures...all causing your truck to not be usable, all costing thousands of dollars. NOx sensors, heat sensors, dosing modules,...less money, but they idle the truck until they are fixed. An entire engine R&R at the dealer is going to be close to $20k. The gas engine, on the other hand...is a simple, age old design and easy to work on, regardless of whether its a Ford, GM, or RAM product.

I've been towing my 12K trailer with a GM 8.1 liter gas 4 speed for the past 15 years. It has been a love hate relationship. It did ok, but maintenance free.....no.

Now I'm waiting for my diesel to arrive to replace it. Why did I go diesel? IMHO, I think modern diesels are quieter/cleaner/more powerful and efficient. Yes, the complexity to achieve that can represent possible problems. But why assume that DEF/DPF and HPFP are all ticking time bombs? You certainly hear nightmare stories, but those are easy to find and fun to read. Sort of like gossip. It would be boring to read about a problem free truck. The factory warranty will be around for quite sometime to cover me too.

Also, to be honest, the wife was against a diesel. After the test drive she commented, this is quiet, comfortable, no diesel stink, and pulls like a freight train compared my soon to be retired gasser. Sold.

Modern diesels are quiet, smooth, and pull like freight trains. No doubt they pull harder than a gas every time. Even when they are working hard they seem pretty effortless. That said, in 15 years time, you will definitely be replacing parts of your emissions system that will be expensive maintenance costs not found on gas models. And hopefully you never have a HPFP failure - it certainly isn't happening to everyone, but you don't want to be the small percentage of owners this happens to. If you (at no fault of your own) pump diesel with too much water in it into your tank and wreck the pump, warranty won't cover it. You have to go after the gas station, good luck with that. You will be paying more for the fuel but get somewhat better economy. Your truck will perform a DPF regeneration every 500-1000 miles, during which time raw fuel is dumped through the turbo into the DPF to burn off soot. There will be a slight hot smell but while this regen occurs lasting roughly 20 minutes, your truck will be getting poor fuel economy as extra fuel is wasted. You will be changing fuel filters every 15k miles, engine oil and filter changes cost roughly 3x what a gasser costs, and adding DEF every 5k miles or so. All of these costs, after 15 years of ownership, are not insignificant. The trade-off is that smooth diesel power. You pay more for the truck up front, but its worth more at trade-in or sale time. I wish you the best - I like diesels, but the gas engines have gotten better. I like this new Hemi drivetrain in the work truck I just bought, and maybe when its time for the Cummins to be replaced it might be with a Ford 7.3L gas.

 

[JohnandDonna]

I have a 2020 2500 MegaCab with the Big Hemi and 4.10 rear end. My TT is about 9k and the 6.4 can tow all day, flats and grades, with no problem. That said, if I needed to tow north of 12k diesel is probably the better way to go. Also, If I did decide on diesel, I would have gone with a 3500 as the payload on a 2500 with a diesel is abysmal. Good Luck with whichever way you go.

 

[Brutal_HO]

I have no idea what you're laughing about. If an entire gas V8 fails and needs to be replaced, you're out maybe $8k for a new one. But that rarely happens; used engines are available, and rebuilding is also a cheaper option. If a Hemi eats a cam lobe - its not massive money. Contrast that with a diesel...if the HPFP fails, the dealership will charge you $10k to replace it and all the associated, required parts and cleaning and labor. If your glow plug tips break off - big money for cylinder / valve damage. DEF header failure, heater failures, DPF failures...all causing your truck to not be usable, all costing thousands of dollars. NOx sensors, heat sensors, dosing modules,...less money, but they idle the truck until they are fixed. An entire engine R&R at the dealer is going to be close to $20k. The gas engine, on the other hand...is a simple, age old design and easy to work on, regardless of whether its a Ford, GM, or RAM product.



Modern diesels are quiet, smooth, and pull like freight trains. No doubt they pull harder than a gas every time. Even when they are working hard they seem pretty effortless. That said, in 15 years time, you will definitely be replacing parts of your emissions system that will be expensive maintenance costs not found on gas models. And hopefully you never have a HPFP failure - it certainly isn't happening to everyone, but you don't want to be the small percentage of owners this happens to. If you (at no fault of your own) pump diesel with too much water in it into your tank and wreck the pump, warranty won't cover it. You have to go after the gas station, good luck with that. You will be paying more for the fuel but get somewhat better economy. Your truck will perform a DPF regeneration every 500-1000 miles, during which time raw fuel is dumped through the turbo into the DPF to burn off soot. There will be a slight hot smell but while this regen occurs lasting roughly 20 minutes, your truck will be getting poor fuel economy as extra fuel is wasted. You will be changing fuel filters every 15k miles, engine oil and filter changes cost roughly 3x what a gasser costs, and adding DEF every 5k miles or so. All of these costs, after 15 years of ownership, are not insignificant. The trade-off is that smooth diesel power. You pay more for the truck up front, but its worth more at trade-in or sale time. I wish you the best - I like diesels, but the gas engines have gotten better. I like this new Hemi drivetrain in the work truck I just bought, and maybe when its time for the Cummins to be replaced it might be with a Ford 7.3L gas.

I realize perhaps you're talking diesel in general, but the CTD doesn't use glow plugs. That said, do keep an eye on your grid heater bolt.


Also, maybe you haven't heard, but the CP4.2 is getting replaced under recall and any failures of 19-20 trucks that most likely are still under warranty will be replaced by the new pump. CP3 failures are almost unheard of. When was the last time anyone had a Cummins catastrophic engine failure? We see posts here and on 5thgenrams about Hemi's getting roached and need replacement all the time.

 

[techman]

All of these costs, after 15 years of ownership, are not insignificant

Absolutely!

I'm also at that point in my life where I just wanted a diesel. I'm a massive gearhead and it was time to add diesel to my fleet. There is nothing cheap about towing anything as a hobby or for a living.

A properly equipped RAM Hemi will tow up to X number of pounds. Once you exceed that X number, by a little or a lot, then a diesel is required in my book.

Gas or Diesel....get them while you can. We may all be talking kilowatt hours and towing range before you know it!!!!

 

[Rekd]

I have no idea what you're laughing about. If an entire gas V8 fails and needs to be replaced, you're out maybe $8k for a new one. But that rarely happens; used engines are available, and rebuilding is also a cheaper option. If a Hemi eats a cam lobe - its not massive money. Contrast that with a diesel...if the HPFP fails, the dealership will charge you $10k to replace it and all the associated, required parts and cleaning and labor. If your glow plug tips break off - big money for cylinder / valve damage. DEF header failure, heater failures, DPF failures...all causing your truck to not be usable, all costing thousands of dollars. NOx sensors, heat sensors, dosing modules,...less money, but they idle the truck until they are fixed. An entire engine R&R at the dealer is going to be close to $20k. The gas engine, on the other hand...is a simple, age old design and easy to work on, regardless of whether its a Ford, GM, or RAM product.



Modern diesels are quiet, smooth, and pull like freight trains. No doubt they pull harder than a gas every time. Even when they are working hard they seem pretty effortless. That said, in 15 years time, you will definitely be replacing parts of your emissions system that will be expensive maintenance costs not found on gas models. And hopefully you never have a HPFP failure - it certainly isn't happening to everyone, but you don't want to be the small percentage of owners this happens to. If you (at no fault of your own) pump diesel with too much water in it into your tank and wreck the pump, warranty won't cover it. You have to go after the gas station, good luck with that. You will be paying more for the fuel but get somewhat better economy. Your truck will perform a DPF regeneration every 500-1000 miles, during which time raw fuel is dumped through the turbo into the DPF to burn off soot. There will be a slight hot smell but while this regen occurs lasting roughly 20 minutes, your truck will be getting poor fuel economy as extra fuel is wasted. You will be changing fuel filters every 15k miles, engine oil and filter changes cost roughly 3x what a gasser costs, and adding DEF every 5k miles or so. All of these costs, after 15 years of ownership, are not insignificant. The trade-off is that smooth diesel power. You pay more for the truck up front, but its worth more at trade-in or sale time. I wish you the best - I like diesels, but the gas engines have gotten better. I like this new Hemi drivetrain in the work truck I just bought, and maybe when its time for the Cummins to be replaced it might be with a Ford 7.3L gas.

TL/DR

I'm not towing a little motorcycle trailer so I'll tow with my diesels, you tow whatever little toys you tow with your gasser and we'll agree to disagree.

 

[troverman]

Brutal I agree with you - and I knew after I posted somebody would point out the grid heater vs glow plugs, but you get the idea. The CP4 recall should be proof enough that RAM would rather pay significant money for parts and labor on proactively replacing the pump than risk the cost of an entire new fuel system. These failures are real. If it were just a handful, RAM would cover just the handful of failures as that would be much cheaper than paying for the new pump and labor for every truck. The CP3 is a very reliable pump; however, keep in mind the units on the 2021+ and retrofitted 19-20 Cummins trucks are not the same exact CP3 as on the 2018 and older Cummins (or pre 2011 Duramax) trucks. They are a modified CP3 and the jury is still out on total reliability until some time goes by. Otherwise, the diesel engines are built more heavy-duty with gear-driven camshafts, etc...but then again most fleets run gas because if you can get 200k+ out of a gas, the cheaper maintenance cost makes it a win.

 

[Brutal_HO]

Brutal I agree with you - and I knew after I posted somebody would point out the grid heater vs glow plugs, but you get the idea. The CP4 recall should be proof enough that RAM would rather pay significant money for parts and labor on proactively replacing the pump than risk the cost of an entire new fuel system. These failures are real. If it were just a handful, RAM would cover just the handful of failures as that would be much cheaper than paying for the new pump and labor for every truck. The CP3 is a very reliable pump; however, keep in mind the units on the 2021+ and retrofitted 19-20 Cummins trucks are not the same exact CP3 as on the 2018 and older Cummins (or pre 2011 Duramax) trucks. They are a modified CP3 and the jury is still out on total reliability until some time goes by. Otherwise, the diesel engines are built more heavy-duty with gear-driven camshafts, etc...but then again most fleets run gas because if you can get 200k+ out of a gas, the cheaper maintenance cost makes it a win.

Agree fleets are moving to gas where a diesel isn't needed.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

I have no idea what you're laughing about. If an entire gas V8 fails and needs to be replaced, you're out maybe $8k for a new one. But that rarely happens; used engines are available, and rebuilding is also a cheaper option. If a Hemi eats a cam lobe - its not massive money. Contrast that with a diesel...if the HPFP fails, the dealership will charge you $10k to replace it and all the associated, required parts and cleaning and labor. If your glow plug tips break off - big money for cylinder / valve damage. DEF header failure, heater failures, DPF failures...all causing your truck to not be usable, all costing thousands of dollars. NOx sensors, heat sensors, dosing modules,...less money, but they idle the truck until they are fixed. An entire engine R&R at the dealer is going to be close to $20k. The gas engine, on the other hand...is a simple, age old design and easy to work on, regardless of whether its a Ford, GM, or RAM product.

Gas engine AVG life span 300,000km of poor fuel milage and low power

Cummins AVG life span 500k- 1,000,000+km

Sure you could replace the gas engine multiple times but it will cost way more than keeping one deleted (or not) cummins.

Keep your gas truck. My diesels have been less work than any of my gas trucks ever were

 

[slowindown]

Gas engine AVG life span 300,000km of poor fuel milage and low power

Cummins AVG life span 500k- 1,000,000+km

Sure you could replace the gas engine multiple times but it will cost way more than keeping one deleted (or not) cummins.

Keep your gas truck. My diesels have been less work than any of my gas trucks ever were

For whatever it’s worth, my 07 5.7 hemi has 235,000 miles on it. It seems to run like it did when new. I’ve never done anything to the engine other than change the water pump a few times, plugs and coils a couple of years ago and the passenger side valve cover gasket last year (the drivers side gasket recently started leaking so I have to do that). I’ve an friend with one with around 300,000 miles. Based partly on that, my specific needs and that I’m pretty frugal, I ordered the hemi.

But, I would have been happy with a diesel. Clearly it would have made towing somewhat easier. I just couldn’t justify it personally. However, whatever anyone else chooses is fine with me.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

For whatever it’s worth, my 07 5.7 hemi has 235,000 miles on it. It seems to run like it did when new. I’ve never done anything to the engine other than change the water pump a few times, plugs and coils a couple of years ago and the passenger side valve cover gasket last year (the drivers side gasket recently started leaking so I have to do that). I’ve an friend with one with around 300,000 miles. Based partly on that, my specific needs and that I’m pretty frugal, I ordered the hemi.

But, I would have been happy with a diesel. Clearly it would have made towing somewhat easier. I just couldn’t justify it personally. However, whatever anyone else chooses is fine with me.

Read the part where it states AVG that means average not all…

 

[slowindown]

Read the part where it states AVG that means average not all…

I understand. In my post I never suggested your numbers were wrong, did I? (Hence, the “for whatever it’s worth.”)

Although you didn’t source your numbers, I posted accepting that you had one.

 

[troverman]

Gas engine AVG life span 300,000km of poor fuel milage and low power

Cummins AVG life span 500k- 1,000,000+km

Sure you could replace the gas engine multiple times but it will cost way more than keeping one deleted (or not) cummins.

Keep your gas truck. My diesels have been less work than any of my gas trucks ever were

Read my signature, you'll see gas and diesel trucks. I'm in the interesting position of having very similar trucks to compare. Some people w/ diesel just like to put gas engines down to somehow justify the extra money they paid...whatever. A Cummins *could* reach 500k miles, or even more. But the vast majority of them never see those miles...the truck falls apart well before that. There are gas engines hitting 300k with no rebuilds as well. Gas trucks can idle with less side effects than a diesel. Cheaper to buy, cheaper to maintain. Sure, the diesel pulls better. But if you aren't towing significant loads, there's no point. The Hemi is far more responsive for everyday driving, and quicker, too. I guess if you love your diesel, it kinda sucks to do a stoplight drag race against a 2500 Hemi and lose the race.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Read my signature, you'll see gas and diesel trucks. I'm in the interesting position of having very similar trucks to compare. Some people w/ diesel just like to put gas engines down to somehow justify the extra money they paid...whatever. A Cummins *could* reach 500k miles, or even more. But the vast majority of them never see those miles...the truck falls apart well before that. There are gas engines hitting 300k with no rebuilds as well. Gas trucks can idle with less side effects than a diesel. Cheaper to buy, cheaper to maintain. Sure, the diesel pulls better. But if you aren't towing significant loads, there's no point. The Hemi is far more responsive for everyday driving, and quicker, too. I guess if you love your diesel, it kinda sucks to do a stoplight drag race against a 2500 Hemi and lose the race.

If you are buying an HD truck to race light to light you are nuts besides if if you do a boosted launch the cummins will beat the hemi … i have had gassers in the past they are fine for lighter loads… i got my cummins with the no charge diesel so have no need to justify my purchase.

 

[troverman]

As expected, the quick rebuke for the stoplight drag race comment. As if nobody else besides me has ever done that in an HD truck. No, we don't buy our trucks for drag racing. But that's not to say we won't try to "take" an annoying or aggressive driver at a traffic light. My point is simply that for everyday non-towing use, the gas trucks are actually nicer to drive. That is simply a fact. For towing anything significant, the diesel trucks are nicer to drive.