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Regens at alarming rate!

kfscoll

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I hesitate to even mention this because I’ll surely jinx myself, but after I switched to using Marathon fuel, burning off the remainder of the BP fuel I’d been using, and omitting any additives, the DPF gauge on my truck hasn’t moved off of zero. This is even with 50/50 mixed city and highway driving. I’d say it’s acted this way for about the last 400 miles.

i find it hard to believe fuel could make such a huge difference in regeneration frequency but so far I’ve seen a marked improvement. The Marathon I go to is right next to a huge steel manufacturing/processing plant, so I’m pretty sure the fuel gets fairly regular turnover. Not only that, it’s crazy cheap — I’d say it’s easily 50-60 cents/gallon cheaper than any other gas stations in the region. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that this behavior keeps up. Tomorrow I have to drive a 70-ish mile round trip, and I should hit another 24-hour timed regen along the way, so we’ll see what happens after that.

its just so weird since prior to my truck beginning to behave itself the gauge went from zero to 3/8 full in the space of about 30 miles which was very unusual. I figured either something finally broke hard or maybe I got a dodgy tank of gas. The jury is still out, but I know I won’t be returning to the BP I had been using. It definitely gets zero big-rig traffic, so who knows how long their fuel sits around.
So, as I predicted, I jinxed myself. My 24-hour timed regen started during my trip today just as I expected, but I had to stop and park in the middle of the regen, and I didn’t really get up to highway speeds for very long during the regen, so I don’t think it did the greatest job. Anyway, about 30 miles into stop-and-go traffic after the regen completed, the first segment on the DEF gauge lit up. I figured I’d just drive around for a while to passively-regenerate it away, but at that point it was rush hour, so I wasn’t able to maintain 70+ mph at all. Eventually the second DEF gauge segment lit up because of all the stop-and-go traffic on the interstate. I decided to park the truck at this point after having driven about 100 miles since the regen completed. I went back out this evening and was able to get the DEF gauge back to zero by driving at around 80 mph for another 100 miles. Now that I’m back down to zero and have a full tank of fuel, I’ll see how it goes from here.

The unpredectability of the soot loading is a real pain in the ass, and meanwhile I have 25.5K miles on the truck in 16 months because of obsessively trying to keep the truck from initiating a soot-load based regeneration. At least I am able to get mine to reliably passively regenerate unlike some of you folks, but I sure wish Chrysler could get their arms around this issue.
 

jak

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If I don't have the DPF up on my gauge, how would I know if I've had a regen? I have about 6500mi, mostly towing and long trips, my DPF has never gone above 0 at least the times I have checked it.
 

OLEJOE

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If I don't have the DPF up on my gauge, how would I know if I've had a regen? I have about 6500mi, mostly towing and long trips, my DPF has never gone above 0 at least the times I have checked it.
If you don’t have it on the DPF screen, you won’t know if it’s regening unless you get the message to keep driving or it’s plugged see the dealer.
 
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OLEJOE

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So, as I predicted, I jinxed myself. My 24-hour timed regen started during my trip today just as I expected, but I had to stop and park in the middle of the regen, and I didn’t really get up to highway speeds for very long during the regen, so I don’t think it did the greatest job. Anyway, about 30 miles into stop-and-go traffic after the regen completed, the first segment on the DEF gauge lit up. I figured I’d just drive around for a while to passively-regenerate it away, but at that point it was rush hour, so I wasn’t able to maintain 70+ mph at all. Eventually the second DEF gauge segment lit up because of all the stop-and-go traffic on the interstate. I decided to park the truck at this point after having driven about 100 miles since the regen completed. I went back out this evening and was able to get the DEF gauge back to zero by driving at around 80 mph for another 100 miles. Now that I’m back down to zero and have a full tank of fuel, I’ll see how it goes from here.

The unpredectability of the soot loading is a real pain in the ass, and meanwhile I have 25.5K miles on the truck in 16 months because of obsessively trying to keep the truck from initiating a soot-load based regeneration. At least I am able to get mine to reliably passively regenerate unlike some of you folks, but I sure wish Chrysler could get their arms around this issue.
I wish they would or could come up with a tune/programming to reduce the EGR just enough to increase the EGT’s enough to make it passive regen easier and let the DEF and SCR take care of the NOX control. The truck would use more DEF but it would keep the DPF cleaner if there wasn’t other issues.
 

firemansdiesel

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If I don't have the DPF up on my gauge, how would I know if I've had a regen? I have about 6500mi, mostly towing and long trips, my DPF has never gone above 0 at least the times I have checked it.
The noticeable way I know if not looking at the DPF screen, is the sound at idle. It has a more rumble sound In regen. You can guage off mileage if you pay attention. My truck completes a regen at the 24hr mark and my guage usually only jumps slightly up right before the regen.
 

OLEJOE

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The noticeable way I know if not looking at the DPF screen, is the sound at idle. It has a more rumble sound In regen. You can guage of mileage if you pay attention. My truck completes a regen at the 24hr mark and my guage usually only jumps slightly up right before the regen.
I have seen the quick jump and then the regen starts also.
 

Units

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The noticeable way I know if not looking at the DPF screen, is the sound at idle. It has a more rumble sound In regen. You can guage off mileage if you pay attention. My truck completes a regen at the 24hr mark and my guage usually only jumps slightly up right before the regen.
On mine you can tell for a second as soon as regen kicks in, motor runs different for a quick second if you pay close attention.
 
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AH64ID

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At low rpms and loads it definitely runs and sounds different. The timing is retarded and the turbo is opened up to increase EGT's.
 

jebruns

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If I don't have the DPF up on my gauge, how would I know if I've had a regen? I have about 6500mi, mostly towing and long trips, my DPF has never gone above 0 at least the times I have checked it.
I watched the DPF on my truck a few times. I might start out towing with 20-25% but once I get out on the open road, it goes to 0 and stays there. I have never noticed a regen happen as far as noise/performance/etc, and have never gotten any kind of regen message. '22 with 10K on it. I'm hoping I never experience what some folks here do with this issue.
 

mbarber84

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So, as I predicted, I jinxed myself. My 24-hour timed regen started during my trip today just as I expected, but I had to stop and park in the middle of the regen, and I didn’t really get up to highway speeds for very long during the regen, so I don’t think it did the greatest job. Anyway, about 30 miles into stop-and-go traffic after the regen completed, the first segment on the DEF gauge lit up. I figured I’d just drive around for a while to passively-regenerate it away, but at that point it was rush hour, so I wasn’t able to maintain 70+ mph at all. Eventually the second DEF gauge segment lit up because of all the stop-and-go traffic on the interstate. I decided to park the truck at this point after having driven about 100 miles since the regen completed. I went back out this evening and was able to get the DEF gauge back to zero by driving at around 80 mph for another 100 miles. Now that I’m back down to zero and have a full tank of fuel, I’ll see how it goes from here.

The unpredectability of the soot loading is a real pain in the ass, and meanwhile I have 25.5K miles on the truck in 16 months because of obsessively trying to keep the truck from initiating a soot-load based regeneration. At least I am able to get mine to reliably passively regenerate unlike some of you folks, but I sure wish Chrysler could get their arms around this issue.
It doesn’t sound like your truck has an issue. Everything you mentioned seems like it’s reasonably correct. It’s been my experience that the active regeneration cycle at low speed stop & go isn’t as effective. The fluctuations in throttle, speed, and exhaust flow create too much instability for a really good clean out. The cycle will still bring down soot load (which is important) but it doesn’t work as well as when the truck is at highway speed for the whole duration. It’s almost inevitable that, if you have a soot load based regen cycle in stop and go, your soot load will return rather quickly after it has completed. I’ve found that, if you’re able to operate the truck in a manner that keeps the soot load at 0% regularly, when you do accumulate some, it’s very easy to get it to passively regenerate out. Conversely, once that first 12-13% gets established in there, it takes considerably longer for passive regeneration to work it out.

As far as issues are concerned, the frequent regeneration is definitely concerning. It’s pretty hard to get their arms around this issue when there are so many different reasons why a truck will have the problem. One of the main issues (I believe) is the overall change in the DOC / DPF from the 2013-2018 trucks to the current generation. The overall system was changed in order to meet tighter regulations. The older systems were much higher flowing. This means they regenerated much easier. The newer ones are much tighter in terms of what they capture and how they flow, leading to faster soot loading and more regeneration cycles being necessary if the truck isn’t being operated in a manner consistent with the parameters necessary for passive regeneration.

As much as I would love to see the system setup to be more efficient, I’m not sure that’s possible. The more research and studying I do, the more apt I am to believe that this is simply one of those “you can’t have your cake and eat it too” scenarios. A lot of the struggles we’re experiencing are solvable, while others are not. These are the same pains that the commercial truck industry had to deal with for years, especially in situations where the trucks are not used in line haul, but local delivery. It’s also the main reason why the majority of ambulance manufacturers have resorted back to gasoline power for their units.

These trucks simply are not able to be used in the manner we have used them before in the past. That ability to leisurely drive the truck and use it as a daily conveyance has been mandated and regulated down by ever-narrowing emissions regulations. You can still daily them, but you have to augment your drive cycle routine with more highway or loaded operation. There’s really no way to make (tune) the truck so that it can be driven in a low speed application regularly, and then also perform as needed when towing. If that was truly possible, it would already be done. All three manufacturers are having the same issues when it comes to emissions, and all three are fully aware that a large percentage of their buyers do not use the truck in a working capacity 100% of the time. If it was possible to for them to give you your cake and let you eat it, it would already be done. It simply isn’t possible.

Now, that being the case, we owners can indeed still “make it work”. We just have to change how we operate. If that’s not an option, or the individual is unwilling, there’s only two outcomes: deal with constant emissions related issues, or purchase a gas powered truck.

Trust me when I say that’s not the ultimatum I want for anyone in this community. However, that is indeed where we all are.
 

CaptainMike

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It doesn’t sound like your truck has an issue. Everything you mentioned seems like it’s reasonably correct. It’s been my experience that the active regeneration cycle at low speed stop & go isn’t as effective. The fluctuations in throttle, speed, and exhaust flow create too much instability for a really good clean out. The cycle will still bring down soot load (which is important) but it doesn’t work as well as when the truck is at highway speed for the whole duration. It’s almost inevitable that, if you have a soot load based regen cycle in stop and go, your soot load will return rather quickly after it has completed. I’ve found that, if you’re able to operate the truck in a manner that keeps the soot load at 0% regularly, when you do accumulate some, it’s very easy to get it to passively regenerate out. Conversely, once that first 12-13% gets established in there, it takes considerably longer for passive regeneration to work it out.

As far as issues are concerned, the frequent regeneration is definitely concerning. It’s pretty hard to get their arms around this issue when there are so many different reasons why a truck will have the problem. One of the main issues (I believe) is the overall change in the DOC / DPF from the 2013-2018 trucks to the current generation. The overall system was changed in order to meet tighter regulations. The older systems were much higher flowing. This means they regenerated much easier. The newer ones are much tighter in terms of what they capture and how they flow, leading to faster soot loading and more regeneration cycles being necessary if the truck isn’t being operated in a manner consistent with the parameters necessary for passive regeneration.

As much as I would love to see the system setup to be more efficient, I’m not sure that’s possible. The more research and studying I do, the more apt I am to believe that this is simply one of those “you can’t have your cake and eat it too” scenarios. A lot of the struggles we’re experiencing are solvable, while others are not. These are the same pains that the commercial truck industry had to deal with for years, especially in situations where the trucks are not used in line haul, but local delivery. It’s also the main reason why the majority of ambulance manufacturers have resorted back to gasoline power for their units.

These trucks simply are not able to be used in the manner we have used them before in the past. That ability to leisurely drive the truck and use it as a daily conveyance has been mandated and regulated down by ever-narrowing emissions regulations. You can still daily them, but you have to augment your drive cycle routine with more highway or loaded operation. There’s really no way to make (tune) the truck so that it can be driven in a low speed application regularly, and then also perform as needed when towing. If that was truly possible, it would already be done. All three manufacturers are having the same issues when it comes to emissions, and all three are fully aware that a large percentage of their buyers do not use the truck in a working capacity 100% of the time. If it was possible to for them to give you your cake and let you eat it, it would already be done. It simply isn’t possible.

Now, that being the case, we owners can indeed still “make it work”. We just have to change how we operate. If that’s not an option, or the individual is unwilling, there’s only two outcomes: deal with constant emissions related issues, or purchase a gas powered truck.

Trust me when I say that’s not the ultimatum I want for anyone in this community. However, that is indeed where we all are.
Are the 23's and 24's having these same issues?
 

F3arl3sslimited

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It doesn’t sound like your truck has an issue. Everything you mentioned seems like it’s reasonably correct. It’s been my experience that the active regeneration cycle at low speed stop & go isn’t as effective. The fluctuations in throttle, speed, and exhaust flow create too much instability for a really good clean out. The cycle will still bring down soot load (which is important) but it doesn’t work as well as when the truck is at highway speed for the whole duration. It’s almost inevitable that, if you have a soot load based regen cycle in stop and go, your soot load will return rather quickly after it has completed. I’ve found that, if you’re able to operate the truck in a manner that keeps the soot load at 0% regularly, when you do accumulate some, it’s very easy to get it to passively regenerate out. Conversely, once that first 12-13% gets established in there, it takes considerably longer for passive regeneration to work it out.

As far as issues are concerned, the frequent regeneration is definitely concerning. It’s pretty hard to get their arms around this issue when there are so many different reasons why a truck will have the problem. One of the main issues (I believe) is the overall change in the DOC / DPF from the 2013-2018 trucks to the current generation. The overall system was changed in order to meet tighter regulations. The older systems were much higher flowing. This means they regenerated much easier. The newer ones are much tighter in terms of what they capture and how they flow, leading to faster soot loading and more regeneration cycles being necessary if the truck isn’t being operated in a manner consistent with the parameters necessary for passive regeneration.

As much as I would love to see the system setup to be more efficient, I’m not sure that’s possible. The more research and studying I do, the more apt I am to believe that this is simply one of those “you can’t have your cake and eat it too” scenarios. A lot of the struggles we’re experiencing are solvable, while others are not. These are the same pains that the commercial truck industry had to deal with for years, especially in situations where the trucks are not used in line haul, but local delivery. It’s also the main reason why the majority of ambulance manufacturers have resorted back to gasoline power for their units.

These trucks simply are not able to be used in the manner we have used them before in the past. That ability to leisurely drive the truck and use it as a daily conveyance has been mandated and regulated down by ever-narrowing emissions regulations. You can still daily them, but you have to augment your drive cycle routine with more highway or loaded operation. There’s really no way to make (tune) the truck so that it can be driven in a low speed application regularly, and then also perform as needed when towing. If that was truly possible, it would already be done. All three manufacturers are having the same issues when it comes to emissions, and all three are fully aware that a large percentage of their buyers do not use the truck in a working capacity 100% of the time. If it was possible to for them to give you your cake and let you eat it, it would already be done. It simply isn’t possible.

Now, that being the case, we owners can indeed still “make it work”. We just have to change how we operate. If that’s not an option, or the individual is unwilling, there’s only two outcomes: deal with constant emissions related issues, or purchase a gas powered truck.

Trust me when I say that’s not the ultimatum I want for anyone in this community. However, that is indeed where we all are.
From what I gather, obviously frequent regens will lower fuel mileage and also use def faster, but the problem with the CTD is the fact that they haven't followed suit with a stand alone regen injector in the exhaust like Chevy/Ford has (9th injector). The CTD just uses the injectors in the cylinders and the concern is the extra fuel causing oil dilution. That is my only concern with frequent regens with the CTD. Please correct me if I am wrong, this is just my take on the situation.
 

CdnHO

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From what I gather, obviously frequent regens will lower fuel mileage and also use def faster, but the problem with the CTD is the fact that they haven't followed suit with a stand alone regen injector in the exhaust like Chevy/Ford has (9th injector). The CTD just uses the injectors in the cylinders and the concern is the extra fuel causing oil dilution. That is my only concern with frequent regens with the CTD. Please correct me if I am wrong, this is just my take on the situation.
Gotta wonder why Cummins chose the regen strategy that they did. Seems a 7th injector into the exhaust would not be a big deal to engineer into the system. I don't think that frequent regen cycles would increase the amount of DEF that is used but I may be wrong.
 

F3arl3sslimited

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Gotta wonder why Cummins chose the regen strategy that they did. Seems a 7th injector into the exhaust would not be a big deal to engineer into the system. I don't think that frequent regen cycles would increase the amount of DEF that is used but I may be wrong.
well in theory higher exhaust temps=higher NOx produced=more def used to remove NOx

And it would make sense but when has a manufacturer done something that makes sense?
 

mbarber84

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From what I gather, obviously frequent regens will lower fuel mileage and also use def faster, but the problem with the CTD is the fact that they haven't followed suit with a stand alone regen injector in the exhaust like Chevy/Ford has (9th injector). The CTD just uses the injectors in the cylinders and the concern is the extra fuel causing oil dilution. That is my only concern with frequent regens with the CTD. Please correct me if I am wrong, this is just my take on the situation.
The use of the primary fuel injectors to fulfill role of the HCI (hydrocarbon injector) makes frequent regeneration more a risk, as the fuel is being pushed into the engine, rather the post-turbo downstream flow. However it does not change the source of the issue that causes frequency of regeneration. It really isn’t as big of a deal if the system is working as designed. The use of a dedicated HCI also has its drawbacks too. Those are an additional wear item, and are included as an item that requires maintenance / replacement more often. It also adds additional complexity to the system as it requires more fuel line, pulse control, etc. I personally wouldn’t mind the 7th injector method, as it would reduce the amount of fuel dilution these trucks have to endure. (This is why changing engine oil based on duty cycle is critically important). Even if everything is working at peak performance you’re still going to get some fuel dilution. If everything is working as designed, it’s minimal and well within the tolerable amount the oil can handle (if you use a good oil).

Fuel dilution in the engine oil can be both a cause and a result of frequent regeneration.
 

F3arl3sslimited

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The use of the primary fuel injectors to fulfill role of the HCI (hydrocarbon injector) makes frequent regeneration more a risk, as the fuel is being pushed into the engine, rather the post-turbo downstream flow. However it does not change the source of the issue that causes frequency of regeneration. It really isn’t as big of a deal if the system is working as designed. The use of a dedicated HCI also has its drawbacks too. Those are an additional wear item, and are included as an item that requires maintenance / replacement more often. It also adds additional complexity to the system as it requires more fuel line, pulse control, etc. I personally wouldn’t mind the 7th injector method, as it would reduce the amount of fuel dilution these trucks have to endure. (This is why changing engine oil based on duty cycle is critically important). Even if everything is working at peak performance you’re still going to get some fuel dilution. If everything is working as designed, it’s minimal and well within the tolerable amount the oil can handle (if you use a good oil).

Fuel dilution in the engine oil can be both a cause and a result of frequent regeneration.
Care to explain changing oil based on duty cycle?
 

mbarber84

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Care to explain changing oil based on duty cycle?
If you’re doing a lot of low speed operation where more regeneration cycles are required, you’ll want to change your engine oil sooner. The more regen cycles the truck completes, the more fuel will find its way into the engine oil. Trucks that are on the highway more will likely have more passive regeneration and not require as many active regeneration cycles, so the fuel dilution will usually be lower. Cummins / Ram also considers severe service as needing more frequent oil changes such as high ambient temperature, short trips, heavy loading, trailer towing, off-road, or law enforcement use. They also recommend that if you’re running a diesel fuel with a biodiesel content higher than 5% (B5), the oil change interval should not exceed 12,500 miles or 400 hours.

There seems to be a common misconception with these trucks that you can always safely go to 15,000 miles with engine oil change intervals and that is simply not the case. The 15,000 mile referenced is the maximum allowable interval. Not the recommended.

The oil life indicator doesn’t take into account every aspect of operation, only some. So it’s important as the operator to understand the way you use your truck dictates when the oil and filter should be changed. It’s also worth noting that not all engine oils and engine oil filters are created equal….
 

F3arl3sslimited

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I agree totally, I never will go 15,000 miles, I will probably go 7,500 cause my wife uses it more than me just around town. I am struggling with the thought of warranty vs. diet for the truck. I see both side's argument. I bought this truck with the anticipation that this will be my last vehicle purchase for my self.
 

Hilly1

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Well guys and gals after 21 years of owning a diesel the US government and its restrictions have forced me and I’m sure others in due time to move on! Thanks for all the info and great conversations. I’ve moved on to a 2024 (Gasser) I hope it will do what I need? time will tell. Maybe I’ll be back who knows? Thanks again and best wishes!
 

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