ECU Tuning - Zero Sum Game?

[scdo]

I've been reading various threads on ECU Tuning (i.e. Calibrated Power) and can't keep myself from feeling skeptical. It sounds too good to be true.

It's not that I don't believe in the HP / Torque figures but rather I imagine it must come with a down-side (other than cost and possibly warranty considerations).

Specifically, if there was more optimized tuning to be used, why would FCA (and other manufacturers) not apply that themselves from the factory? They'd probably sell more vehicles. Is there an emissions consideration? Are they "de-tuning" to increase reliability? Something else?

I feel like this must be a zero-sum game but admit I'm somewhat ignorant here... anyone willing to share some insights?

 

[Crusty old shellback]

You can thank people like EPA, CARB, Govt regulations and insurance companies for it.

 

[Enve46]

Factory tuning is always very conservative geared more towards EPA fuel economy standards and more of a blanket type tuning. In my opinion, the best tunes are specific to each vehicle via data log and/or dyno. Coming from TRXs, the factory tuning is actually garbage with a ton of over fueling, WOT AFR's in the 9s to combat Catalyst Over Temp issues among a long list of other things. When you can optimize fueling maps, timing and other parameters, you can make it much more efficient. It wasn't uncommon for tuned TRXs to actually see increased fuel economy because of this and you'll find this in many applications, especially diesels.

 

[gimmie11s]

Definitely not hype... Calibrated power has been mentioned and they are one of the better options on these trucks.

 

[Dave01]

Are you interested in diesel, gas, or a general question on both?

 

[scdo]

Are you interested in diesel, gas, or a general question on both? I did just order a 23 2500 Diesel… I realize the 22s are not tunable yet but imagine this will be available to me in the future.

I did intend this as a general question (as I think the same line of thinking applies to gas engines) but I did just order a 23 2500 Diesel.

I’m just generally curious on the thoughts behind these tunes. Something doesn’t add up to me / there’s got to be a down-side or regulation making this untapped power a thing.

Part of where I’m coming from…
My brother had a tune on his BMW 3 series (twin turbo)… he was showing me the speed increase (driving it very hard) when his dash lit up and forced him into limp mode (could have been unrelated to the tune but pretty coincidental). I’ve been a bit anti tune since then… I figure the engineers optimized the ECU a certain way, maybe best not to mess around with it.

But, I see lots of testimonials for the tunes on this forum… maybe I’ve got the wrong idea about them?

If it’s a trade-off against efficiency and pollution I kinda get it… but some of those tunes argue better efficiency and no increased emissions.

That extra power has got to be coming from somewhere.

 

[GPurcell01]

I did intend this as a general question (as I think the same line of thinking applies to gas engines) but I did just order a 23 2500 Diesel.

I’m just generally curious on the thoughts behind these tunes. Something doesn’t add up to me / there’s got to be a down-side or regulation making this untapped power a thing.

Part of where I’m coming from…
My brother had a tune on his BMW 3 series (twin turbo)… he was showing me the speed increase (driving it very hard) when his dash lit up and forced him into limp mode (could have been unrelated to the tune but pretty coincidental). I’ve been a bit anti tune since then… I figure the engineers optimized the ECU a certain way, maybe best not to mess around with it.

But, I see lots of testimonials for the tunes on this forum… maybe I’ve got the wrong idea about them?

If it’s a trade-off against efficiency and pollution I kinda get it… but some of those tunes argue better efficiency and no increased emissions.

That extra power has got to be coming from somewhere.

Your brother... that's not a tune thing... that's just a BMW thing lol

In all seriousness though, I've had multiple tuned vehicles and all of them have had gains because of it. Whether it be power, drivability, or better shift maps that don't try to hustle to OD as much as possible. I will say though, these newer diesels do not see the huge MPG gains that the older ones did. However, the power increase is definitely there as well as better delivery and response.

As already said, the factory stuff is meant and geared towards being safe and as idiot proof as possible (the clown that goes WOT up a mountain the entire time with a load and no regard for the truck) and to keep the EPA happy. With that being said, a good tuner like Calibrated Power will be able to keep the emissions equipment happy but still capitalize on the gains left on the table compared to the stock tune.

The power comes from different fuel mapping, boost control, timing, etc.

 

[scdo]

Really appreciate all the insights... Now someone just needs to crack the ECU on these newer trucks!

 

[Blythkd1]

Any tuner, or OEM for that matter, can easily make more power with these trucks. More fuel, more boost, play with the timing and shazam, more power. It's not hard. In my opinion, the biggest tradeoffs are drivetrain and cooling. When you make more power you have to be able to put it to the ground, reliably. Transmissions and drivelines will only take so much with an idiot behind the wheel. And you have to keep everything cool. In my experience, aftermarket tunes tend to make diesel trucks outrun the cooling system. If they make the front ends of HD pickups any larger to accommodate larger radiators and aftercoolers, they're gonna look like Peterbilts. The GM pickup is already ridiculously high with poor visibility.

GM just announced their "new and improved" L5P engine that will remain in 3rd place in the torque category. I'm betting they either don't think the Allison will handle any more power or they don't think they can keep it cool, or both. I don't see any other way they just come out with new numbers that settle for 3rd place in a power category. Otherwise, they would have bumped their torque to 1000+ like everyone else.

 

[Crusty old shellback]

Gas engines are not much different than diesels in this respect.

It all has to do with regulations and money. Follow the money.

I had a 1990 Chevy truck with the 4.3 V6. Never tore into the motor but changed several things that fed it along with a reprogramed chip. They didn't have tuner ECU's back then.
Everything I did had stickers that said not for highway use. Off road use only. So basically it was illegal to drive on the street.
When it came time to get it smogged, I was a bit worried at first. Guy hooked up the sniffer to the tail pipe and ran the test at various RPMS. truck passed with flying colors. It actually ran cleaner than the day it was new.
Only thing he mentioned was I did not have a heat riser tube on the drivers side from the exhaust up to the air cleaner. I had built a dual snorkel air cleaner and made it a ram air system pulling cold air from either side of the radiator on the bulkhead. So I didn't have a place on the manifold for a tube. But the one he saw, was just for looks as I had welded up the hole in the air filter.

And all of this was because the companies whos products I used, didn't pay the big bucks to CARB to have their products tested for road use in calif.

With the right tuner, you can tune a stock OEM motor to get more drivable power and still meet EPA requirements and still have it last. It's the idiots who go for max power and don't understand the consequences of their actions on the rest of the package.

 

[Darmichar]

I've been reading various threads on ECU Tuning (i.e. Calibrated Power) and can't keep myself from feeling skeptical. It sounds too good to be true.

It's not that I don't believe in the HP / Torque figures but rather I imagine it must come with a down-side (other than cost and possibly warranty considerations).

Specifically, if there was more optimized tuning to be used, why would FCA (and other manufacturers) not apply that themselves from the factory? They'd probably sell more vehicles. Is there an emissions consideration? Are they "de-tuning" to increase reliability? Something else?

I feel like this must be a zero-sum game but admit I'm somewhat ignorant here... anyone willing to share some insights?

In a previous life, I tested Caterpillar engines for meeting emissions requirements. They have very specific guidelines for what the engine is allowed to produce emissions wise.
The engines were subjected to rigorous testing under highly controlled situations, and the software (and hardware) was iterated time and time again to squeeze out every last bit of performance they could while also meeting the emissions requirements.

Once that was accomplished and the results were submitted to the EPA and certified to be emissions compliant, that locked that software and hardware package for that engine in order to remain certified.
They also have to take engine durability into consideration. Do you want it to last, or do you want it producing crazy HP and TQ numbers?
Was the engine producing as much power as it possibly could? Absolutely not.
Was the engine producing as much torque as it possibly could? Absolutely not.
Was the engine EPA compliant. Yes.

There is a whole lot of room in software alone for improvements (fuel maps, VVT timing, etc.) for these engines to produce far greater torque and horsepower than they currently do.

 

[Riddick]

Really appreciate all the insights... Now someone just needs to crack the ECU on these newer trucks!

There is tuning for the 22s but its going to set you back over $4k to do it.

The stock tune is a one size fits all and is very conservative in nature. OE manufactures are more concerned with long term reliability than making max power. While you can load a tune on these trucks and make an additional 150 hp over stock, if you have that tune loaded while pulling a heavy load or any load for that matter there is a good chance you are going to cause some serious damage. Also, while these trucks can make an additional 150 hp over stock they will not last 500k miles doing it. With the stock tune you can floor it all day long and be fine, not so much on the hotter tunes. Your transmission and engine will wear out faster, how fast depends on how you drive it. Your weekend sled puller or drag racer will break something a lot faster than your average joe who goes out on the highway and floors it a couple times a month.

The Cummins engines are very strong and as long as you respect and take care of your vehicle you should not experience any issues. Manufacturers build engines way stronger than they used to, this includes gas and diesels. However, if you decide to tune your vehicle make sure you do your research and pick a good one...... not all tuners are the same.

 

[Dave01]

I've put tunes in diesels in the past. Right now I bought a 6.4 so I don't own a Cummins, but ... I don't think I'd tune it. When I was putting tunes in '90's era diesels and also 2005-2007 the power, shifting, and economy differences were so significant, you were talking about diesel 3/4 ton trucks with 180 hp and 350 ft.-lb. getting 16 mpg that could be tuned to power levels 40-50 hp higher and adding 75 ft.-lb. without stressing things too much (as others have said, cooling needed to be at least watched if not upgraded). And, you'd get 3-5 more mpg. Huge significance in those numbers. Today, with the massive stock power output, I know for my use I'd never need or use the added power from a tune. 1,000 lb.-ft. stock! Almost 3 times the torque of a truck I was using to tow pretty heavy loads years ago. Anyway, I get it why people tune but really these rigs are so freaking powerful from the factory now that to me it's a different story than 15 years ago.