2500 GVWR Fudge Factor

[iflyskyhigh]

Sorry if this is the wrong place for this. Didn't really seem like a towing question per se so I stuck it here.

Got the truck weighed the other day while working on finding my ideal tire pressure.

Ended up raising a couple more questions.

Truck is a 2022 2500 Cummings Limited Night Edition with rear air suspension.

Going to be used to tow a 30' Airstream with wife and kids.



Truck had me (235), about 100-150 pounds of range gear between back seats and bed, and I think about 1/4-1/2 tank of diesel.

I know I need to get a weight on the truck with nothing in it and full fuel to get an accurate curb weight, but just doing some a little math and guesstimating, seems like the manufacturer maybe under estimated my payload a little? No much, but a little. Maybe 75-100 pounds. Which I guess could also be a rounding error since I had stuff in the vehicle and not full fuel. Anyway, it's close.

Based on my rear over axel weight above, my limit it seems is going to be dictated by the GVWR, as I'll reach that long before I reach the rear axel weight rating. At least as I plan on using the truck. My trucks towing capacity is almost 21,000 pounds, so that's not limiting. Based on payload capacity and GVWR, 21,000 pounds of towing isn't even attainable.

I guess my real questing is, I've seen it thrown out there that 2500's are safely capable of more payload then they are given credit for, that the 10,000 GVWR is more a legal thing than structural thing?

Not asking for permission to do anything stupid. I'm 99.9% certain I won't exceed my 2100 pounds of payload with Airstream and cargo. Just more of a mental exercise. I like numbers and find it interesting.

This is my first Ram, first HD truck, and first diesel powered vehicle so I'm just trying to feel everything out.

 

[iflyskyhigh]

As an aside I fly jets for a living.

I know it's not a direct correlation, but when we are figuring W&B for takeoff and landing, we have a good idea of the numbers we're plugging into the box, but it's really just a close guess.

The airplanes are actually weighed at major inspections just like putting the truck on a cat scale, but after that its open to errors of hundreds of pounds. We have all kinds of different max and min weights just like the trucks. Passenger airplanes are basically just flying HD trucks. Max take off and landing weights are similar to GVWR. Payload is the same but it's literally PAY LOAD. How much weight of paying pax and bags can we load.

Just like trucks the type aircraft makes a big difference in how concerned you are with errors. The smaller and lighter the aircraft the more critical W&B, typically.

But, we have something called average weights. We use average weights for passengers and cargo for the most part. So Depending on the time of year and who's on the plane, it is easy to be off buy hundreds and hundreds of pounds in either direction.

Plus, we have a really good idea of how much fuel is on the plane, but again, there is a pretty good margin of error. Don't worry, it's not a safety thing. It's accounted for in other ways.

I have little concern in day to day operations that this discrepancy is going to cause any issue at all. Obviously thinks like very short runways and mountains to dodge on take off can heighten the concern, but again all these things are taken into consideration.

Just wondering how similarly this relates to HD trucks, and GVWR and Payload?

 

[kevin588127]

I would say it's a legal thing. Gm will let you add to the gvwr of their trucks and I'm not sure they really change much. Gvwr may also play into licensing. I believe in my state, the cost goes up if you go over 10k gvwr.
With that said, my ram 1500 has a 1500 lb payload. I've had over 2k on it ( passengers, gear and a tongue heavy toy hauler), with bags, e range tires and a WD hitch, it pulled ok. From a legal standpoint, I'm illegal and why I have a 2500 on order.
It is crazy the tow rating they will give these trucks while at the same time giving them neutered payload capacities. My 1500 is rated to tow 10900, to me, that means atleast 1100 lbs of tongue weight.

 

[spinned]

The Gross Axle Weight Rating is nearly 12k. The truck can easily handle more than 10k payload. When I spoke to my dealer about it he responded “Plus realistically with that rear airbag system even though they won’t post it in the stats they help a ton with payload capacity”… meaning the air bags are designed to maximize the axle rating. There are two camps on this issue and I think it is pretty equally divided.

I have the same truck as you and the same situation and I am not concerned…

 

[Brutal_HO]

Most, including DOT where applicable, care more about RAWR. If the tires and wheels are up to it, it's a legality thing.

Those saying your insurance won't cover you are wrong. Insurance IS payments for stupid. That's not to say you couldn't be cited and/or drug into civil court if you're over, caught, and at fault.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

I use my truck based off the 12k combined axle weight ratings it works great when i had 4100lbs in the bed it was a little upset but still not on the bump stops a set of bags would have helped But for refference here is my 2500 truck with a 2150lbs water tote loaded with hunting gear and loaded trailer with SXS

 

[jeffjcalweb]

Sorry if this is the wrong place for this. Didn't really seem like a towing question per se so I stuck it here.

Got the truck weighed the other day while working on finding my ideal tire pressure.

Ended up raising a couple more questions.

Truck is a 2022 2500 Cummings Limited Night Edition with rear air suspension.

Going to be used to tow a 30' Airstream with wife and kids.

View attachment 31859

Truck had me (235), about 100-150 pounds of range gear between back seats and bed, and I think about 1/4-1/2 tank of diesel.

I know I need to get a weight on the truck with nothing in it and full fuel to get an accurate curb weight, but just doing some a little math and guesstimating, seems like the manufacturer maybe under estimated my payload a little? No much, but a little. Maybe 75-100 pounds. Which I guess could also be a rounding error since I had stuff in the vehicle and not full fuel. Anyway, it's close.

Based on my rear over axel weight above, my limit it seems is going to be dictated by the GVWR, as I'll reach that long before I reach the rear axel weight rating. At least as I plan on using the truck. My trucks towing capacity is almost 21,000 pounds, so that's not limiting. Based on payload capacity and GVWR, 21,000 pounds of towing isn't even attainable.

I guess my real questing is, I've seen it thrown out there that 2500's are safely capable of more payload then they are given credit for, that the 10,000 GVWR is more a legal thing than structural thing?

Not asking for permission to do anything stupid. I'm 99.9% certain I won't exceed my 2100 pounds of payload with Airstream and cargo. Just more of a mental exercise. I like numbers and find it interesting.

This is my first Ram, first HD truck, and first diesel powered vehicle so I'm just trying to feel everything out.

You already are on the right track. The reality - meaning the physical reality - not some forum phantom illegal nonsense - the 2500 is only payload limited on paper (well whatever that sticker is made out of).

You will never find a consensus on any truck forum between the two schools of thinking from 'payload police'.

In the end, GVWR of 10K on a Ram 2500 is not based on any physical limitation of the truck or components.

 

[iflyskyhigh]

View attachment 31868

Most, including DOT where applicable, care more about RAWR. If the tires and wheels are up to it, it's a legality thing.

Those saying your insurance won't cover you are wrong. Insurance IS payments for stupid. That's not to say you couldn't be cited and/or drug into civil court if you're over, caught, and at fault.

RAWR = Rear Axel Weight Rating and GAWR = Gross Axel Weight Rating?

 

[iflyskyhigh]

I use my truck based off the 12k combined axle weight ratings it works great when i had 4100lbs in the bed it was a little upset but still not on the bump stops a set of bags would have helped But for refference here is my 2500 truck with a 2150lbs water tote loaded with hunting gear and loaded trailer with SXS

Thanks for all the feed back.

Safety Sally's, Range Nazi's, Payload Police....flip side too of course. They're everywhere no matter what the subject. And I guess technically they aren't wrong, but...

Like I said, I wasn't looking for anyone to tell to do or not to do something. Just find the mental exercise interesting.

I noticed yesterday in the owners manual if you have the factory airbags you will get a notification if you exceed the capabilities of the airbags.

But just to be clear the airbags do help with payload and towing, correct? I hope they do, that was my understanding when I shelled out the extra duckets for them.

In the end I probably won't ever exceed my payload, or if I do it would probably only be maybe a couple hundred pounds at the most for a long camping trip. Even weight distribution and don't be dumb right?

That's why I bought a 3/4 ton truck with a diesel. I wanted the truck to far out preform what I was going to require of it. I didn't want there to ever be issue or a question of capability. Seems like I choose wisely.

Plus diesels sound and look cool and that's what really matters.

 

[DevilDodge]

I do not have alot of time right now so I will just drop some quick numbers.

Obviously this doesnt matter much for 4.5 gen but...

2003 5.7l HEMI. GVWR 8800
2010 5.7l HEMI GVWR 8800
2013 5.7l HEMI GVWR 9000...note first year RAM 2500 has 10000GVWR with the Cummins
2014 5.7l HEMI GVWR 9000...6.4l Hemi debuts with 10000 GVWR. And first year for coils...

2018 5.7l HEMI GVWR 9000 last year for it in an HD.

2003 axle ratings 5200 and 6000 for 11200

2015 5.7l HEMI 5250 and 6000 for 11250

2015 6.4l Hemi 5500 and 6500 for 12000


Just some numbers to look at.

 

[DevilDodge]

And if you look at the 4.5 gen 3500 trucks...there are many different GVWR. To include one with a higher rating for Longbed trucks so the difference in weight between them and short bed trucks is not a handicap

 

[iflyskyhigh]

I do not have alot of time right now so I will just drop some quick numbers.

Obviously this doesnt matter much for 4.5 gen but...

2003 5.7l HEMI. GVWR 8800
2010 5.7l HEMI GVWR 8800
2013 5.7l HEMI GVWR 9000...note first year RAM 2500 has 10000GVWR with the Cummins
2014 5.7l HEMI GVWR 9000...6.4l Hemi debuts with 10000 GVWR. And first year for coils...

2018 5.7l HEMI GVWR 9000 last year for it in an HD.

2003 axle ratings 5200 and 6000 for 11200View attachment 31881

2015 5.7l HEMI 5250 and 6000 for 11250

2015 6.4l Hemi 5500 and 6500 for 12000
View attachment 31882

Just some numbers to look at.

I think I understand what you're getting at. Nothing changes but GVWR goes up?

Mine is 12,040

 

[Jacob]

No worries. Also hauled ibc totes full of water. I just take it easy. It's a beefy truck I dont sweat the numbers too much.

 

[DevilDodge]

I think I understand what you're getting at. Nothing changes but GVWR goes up?

Mine is 12,040

View attachment 31883

What I was getting at is there was many changes to get to the 10k "artificial limit" and thr 5.7l HEMI never made it to 10k.

And was showing axle ratings have always been higher than GVWR.

The diesel was always more powerful than the frame and suspension.

The 5.7 Hemi never was able to be rated at 10k. Why it is gone.

And I just wanted to show that the coils and the 6.4l were the first time a Gas RAM HeftyDuty hit the 10k mark. For the coil spring haters.

I own a 99 an 03 and a 15. All will haul over GVWR....the 15 does it best.

Just a different perspective was all. As I am in agreement with the majority here.

And my gas 4th Gen truck having a higher Rear GAWR all while the 4.5 Diesel is more "capable"

You said it was a mind exercise...just giving some weight

 

[DevilDodge]

This whole conversation is why I do not see me making the jump to a 3500.

I could not have loaded anymore in a 3500 and even less in a short bed.

 

[CharlieL]

I think I understand what you're getting at. Nothing changes but GVWR goes up?

Mine is 12,040

View attachment 31883

Aside from the VIN & Paint Code, the sticker on my 2022 2500 Laramie looks just like yours. Attached fyi is the recent CAT scale weigh for my truck. This was essentially in "ready to travel" mode. Take a few things into account: the yellow sticker payload is 2,102. That tells me the curb weight from the factory should have been around 7,900. Running boards were installed before I picked it up. I had a spray in bedliner done, a Retrax cover installed & put in a PullRite auto-sliding 5th wheel hitch (290 lbs). The CAT weight includes all of this, DEF & fuel tanks full, my wife and I, our two dogs and miscellaneous stuff I keep in the truck at all times. So, the gross weight - as weighed - of 8,720 looks about right to me. That's why I'm referring to this as "ready to travel" mode! BTW - I also have rear air.

From a "technical" (or DOT legal) perspective, I can add 1,280 more pounds of payload. (GVWR). That's about 300 pounds shy of the pin weight on my 5th wheel. Hitching up, I'll be "illegal." From a mechanical perspective, I can put 2,420 on the rear (GAWR). That's about 840 lbs to spare. (6040 GAWR - 3620 - 1580 = 840). I've read way too much about "legal" "DOT classifications" etc. to even think about chiming in on all of that. I'm confident my setup will be safe.

Glad to hear you fly jets. I never had that chance, but hold a Commercial Multi Instrument. All my flying has been civilian & none for pay. I fully understand the aviation terms of UL, CG, etc. I think of my truck's payload sort of as UL without having to think about fuel or CG. In aviation, UL is something not to be exceeded (although I've done that by about 150 or so pounds in winter and had no problem getting airborne in a SEL retract.).... That's a story for another time! For my truck, I don't see the 10k GVWR as limiting my ability to use the truck for what I intend.

Seems from what you've written you can extrapolate your "ready to travel" weight, or you could reweigh if you really want a precise number. Don't think you need to, though. For a towed trailer, the tongue weight is a part of payload. I doubt you'll exceed rated payload, if you do I'd not be worried. You will be using a weight distribution hitch, right? There are many good ones on the market. Personally I've used the Equalizer brand pulling the 24' Rockwood we bought in 2011. The 5th wheel is an upgrade - wife wanted more elbow room & kitchen countertop space - so we currently have a 29' KZ Durango D250RED on order. First order of business witll be to get a CAT scale weigh done with 5th wheel hooked up.

 

[iflyskyhigh]

Aside from the VIN & Paint Code. the sticker on my 2022 2500 Laramie looks just like yours. Attached fyi is the recent CAT scale weigh for my truck. This was essentially in "ready to travel" mode. Take a few things into account: the yellow sticker payload is 2,102. That tells me the curb weight from the factory should have been around 7,900. Running boards were installed before I picked it up. I had a spray in bedliner done, a Retrax cover installed & put in a PullRite auto-sliding 5th wheel hitch (290 lbs). The CAT weight includes all of this, DEF & fuel tanks full, my wife and I, our two dogs and miscellaneous stuff I keep in the truck at all times. So, the gross weight - as weighed - of 8,720 looks about right to me. That's why I'm referring to this as "ready to travel" mode! BTW - I also have rear air.

From a "technical" (or DOT legal) perspective, I can add 1,280 more pounds of payload. (GVWR). That's about 300 pounds shy of the pin weight on my 5th wheel. Hitching up, I'll be "illegal." From a mechanical perspective, I can put 2,420 on the rear (GAWR). That's about 840 lbs to spare. (6040 GAWR - 3620 - 1580 = 840). I've read way too much about "legal" "DOT classifications" etc. to even think about chiming in on all of that. I'm confident my setup will be safe.

Glad to hear you fly jets. I never had that chance, but hold a Commercial Multi Instrument. All my flying has been civilian & none for pay. I fully understand the aviation terms of UL, CG, etc. I think of my truck's payload sort of as UL without having to think about fuel or CG. In aviation, UL is something not to be exceeded (although I've done that by about 150 or so pounds in winter and had no problem getting airborne in a SEL retract.).... That's a story for another time! For my truck, I don't see the 10k GVWR as limiting my ability to use the truck for what I intend.

Seems from what you've written you can extrapolate your "ready to travel" weight, or you could reweigh if you really want a precise number. Don't think you need to, though. For a towed trailer, the tongue weight is a part of payload. I doubt you'll exceed rated payload, if you do I'd not be worried. You will be using a weight distribution hitch, right? There are many good ones on the market. Personally I've used the Equalizer brand pulling the 24' Rockwood we bought in 2011. The 5th wheel is an upgrade - wife wanted more elbow room & kitchen countertop space - so we currently have a 29' KZ Durango D250RED on order. First order of business witll be to get a CAT scale weigh done with 5th wheel hooked up.

Yes sir. I've decided on the Weigh Safe True Tow WDH. Clear on tongue weight and the pertinent calculations, and implications.

All great information. Thanks for the time.

I'll get a weight at some point when I'm sure I'm close to the max amount of stuff I'm going to put in the truck and trailer just to satisfy my curiosity.

If I exceed my advertised payload or GVWR I doubt it will be by much. But it's good to know the wiggle room is there if it's needed and don't really need to worry about it.

 

[Dark Sky]

Probably worth confirming that you're not exceeding tire loads. Without doubt the maximum tire capability is going to exceed the axle capacity, but something to check if/when you change to different tires in the future.
I'm not worried about my GVWR, and probably won't think too much about my GAWR unless I have to move somebody else's trailer that's heavier than mine. I will be mindful of my tire limits and need to get familiar with the load vs pressure charts for the tires that came on my new truck.

 

[UglyViking]

As has been discussed before, there are two groups of thought here and it really comes down to three camps, what I call the logical middle and the left and right extreme. Just to provide a few additional details to put your mind at ease.

The 2500 and 3500 trucks share identical everything from frame, to axle (non-HO, SRW), to brakes (non-max tow), tires, etc. So if you were to compare a Laramie 2500 with a Laramie 3500, configured in the identical way, the only difference between the two will be 1. leaf suspension, 2. badges on hood, 3. sticker on door.

GAWR (front and rear) includes suspension, wheels and tire weights. It's also much lower than what AAM rates the actual axle for, meaning that the rating is likely lower due to brakes, wheels, tires or suspension, but again the GAWR in the rear includes the fact that it has coils (or in your case, bags).

Sadly, I don't believe the bags actually add any payload, I don't know the specs on the bags, so I can't help with that. Just as a mental exercise though, and I get this doesn't help you, but if you took a coil rear 2500, added bags rated at 7500 lbs and the wheels and tires were up to it, you would have increased your payload. You will not have increased your "legal payload", but you will have indeed increased it as physics doesn't really care about the sticker.

I think the safest thing would be to do your best to stay under, at, or roughly about each axle weight rating. You could likely go above it, again looking at the 3500 as a comparison, but it starts to get into less and less safe territory.

Again, there will be a bunch of people that call me crazy, and a bunch that say "I had 8k in the bed for weeks and it was fine". Both are being insensitive to reality.

Lastly, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not your lawyer, I do not recommend breaking any laws. That said, find a case where a driver was pulled over with only having broken the payload number and anything bad having happened. I've heard a lot of concerns around the legalities of this, around insurance not covering, around civil suits, etc. There likely have been for all of the prior mentioned, but I've yet to see anyone receive any hassle for simply being over payload, if that was the case then there would be a lot less Tacomas, 4runners, and jeeps in the off-road/overland scene.

 

[gimmie11s]

I own a 99 an 03 and a 15. All will haul over GVWR....the 15 does it best.

That is completely subjective. How do you measure "does it best"?

I also have a '99-- I would rather tow my 14k lb 5er with my '99 than the 2016 coil spring truck I sold.