2500 - GVWR and payload

[kobra]

Hi all,

Out of respect for @UglyViking and keeping his thread clean, I'm starting a new one regarding 3/4 ton trucks and GVWR.
Caveat, no "weight police" intended here, just trying to provide information for those who may not know.

The first thing I see is that there is a lot of misunderstanding about the 2500 class and payloads...
- There are many debates about the 10k GVWR is artificially low and how the trucks are capable of much more. Related, many note that 2500s are often built similar to the 3500 class in axles, tires, etc. All true.
- With the latest crop of diesel 2500 class diesel trucks, the manufacturers payload rating can be less than 2000lbs.
- There are just as many debates about how to "increase the payload" of a 2500. Usually this is in defense of adding something like airbags then exceeding manufacturer payload, GAWR or GVWR.
... But the reality is that only the manufacturer (or in some cases a certified aftermarket shop) can increase the payload rating of the truck. So, for example, if you add airbags, you can load the truck above the GVWR, and the truck will not sag as much and will handle better. Maybe you don't care, and honestly within reason, I don't care either. Just don't pretend you've somehow increased your payload rating as you haven't.

The second thing I see is the debate on why manufacturers seem stuck on the 10,000lb limits for 2500 class. This has to do with truck classes setup by the DOT (technically a sub division for highways). So this is at the federal level in the US and adopted by many provinces, including the one where I live. The 10,000lb limit is the top of the class 2 category, specifically class 2b. Once a truck is 10,001lbs it is now a class 3 truck. Some of the new GM 2500s have exceeded 10k in GVWR; so they are now a class 3 truck by regulation.
If you want to wade through the DOT site for the info, go for it. Or see here, pretty good summary - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_classification

Why might the truck class matter to you, or not? In some cases, the class 3 is enough to change registration and insurance costs. Where we live, it matters very little but apparently in other areas it can be a lot more. Call the regulations antiquated, or silly, or whatever, cause I agree and think they are. Just realize the regulations exist.

There are those who have bought a 2500 thinking that all they need to look at is the "tow ratings". They are then surprised to find out they are exceeding some of the legal limits of their trucks. So, I hope this information will help others decide if a 2500 fits their needs, or if a larger truck is needed.

B

PS. For the record, I've had several 2500's and I've worked them hard with trailers, goosenecks, 5th wheels, etc; on and off the farm, and as part of a couple of trucking businesses. My last truck was a RAM 2500 and it might have been overloaded at times. I bought them because they ride better. But then I've bought 3500s when I know I need to tow heavier (12k+), and duallies for larger loads (20k+). Right tool for the job.

PPS. speaking of right tool for the job, this is what I used to drive... I'm out of that game now, so this is my nephews truck. And, this is towing a "light load"; loaded up with boosters and jeeps it has 46 tires on the road...

 

[Chris.Gio]

Interesting stuff. So the 2k payload limit on a diesel megacab is mainly because the truck (I’m guessing) weighs about 8,000 pounds.

wonder what the “real” limit is. Or how to even know...

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Interesting stuff. So the 2k payload limit on a diesel megacab is mainly because the truck (I’m guessing) weighs about 8,000 pounds.

wonder what the “real” limit is. Or how to even know...

Me and an engineer took a quick look at everything and the lowest rated part is the springs they would allow for 12,000 lbs easy still within all components limits, I have already talked to an aftermarket shop that can legally up the gvwr sticker They said they would have no issue putting my truck at 12k gvwr i may do it in the future but where i am they dont really bother you unless your clearly way overloading the vehicle even then its usually overlooked

 

[UglyViking]

Appreciate you spinning up a new thread on this. Since the purpose of this thread is to discuss payload I figured I'll indulge and add my thoughts on the matter.

While I agree with everything you posted I want to add a caveat. While it's true that only the manufacture (or a certified upfitter, which I'm not sure if any exist in the US for our class of trucks, although I've never really looked) can change the legal payload of our trucks, it's important to note that there is a clear difference between legal and practical payload. For the sake of conversation I'll say legal is the sticker, practical is the "real world".

If you take a hemi 2500 and a cummins 2500 and compare identical trims the hemi has something like 500lbs of payload more than the cummins. Ignoring the sticker portion of this it makes absolutely 0 sense that a 500lb load overhanging the front axle would somehow reduce the overall payload of the truck by the same amount, especially considering that say 80% of the payload is likely attributed to the bed and rear axle.

So just there, legality aside we are at a rocky start. Then take into account that somehow every one of the big 3 have somehow come with different designs for frame, suspension, body and driveline and yet all came to the exact same max GVWR number? Not even a few pounds off but the exact same?

Now, I know your point was to clarify the legal definition, and I agree with you 100%. Some states allow you to register your vehicle with a derated GVWR, I've even heard that some states allow you to register above the GVWR (although I've yet to track this down I've not spent much time searching). My point is just that while the law does make the rules, and makes them black and white, the reality is a bit more grey.

Lastly, and again understanding your POV here, if you take a factory 2500 and add airbags but keep everything else stock, you have functionally raised the practical payload. Yes, the legal payload is the same, and towing/carrying overweight opens you up to all sorts of potential liabilities I am just calling out that you can, and people often do, load over payload. Take a look at any of the toyota tundra/jeep wrangler groups and see the massive amount of over payload rigs out there, hammering off road and I'm sure almost never getting harassed for being massively over payload.

Anyway, point here is that there is a difference between the legal payload/GVWR and the practical payload/GVWR. If you choose to carry/tow over the sticker then you should know 100% that you're opening yourself up to potential legal issues. Has anyone ever been tagged for being over legal payload? Yeah, I'm sure, but you're probably far more likely to get tagged for speeding, tint, lift, etc. than you are for carrying a few lbs over a sticker. Again, if you choose to ignore the law then the consequences are on you and no one else.

 

[kobra]

Good points @H3LZSN1P3R and @UglyViking , and agree with the practical aspects. I've done the same and accepted the same risks.

Who I think might benefit from knowing things here is that scenario of a first time 5th wheel buyer (lots of those now). The salesman convinces him he needs that 16k toy hauler and the wife agrees. Then comes the truck part - "I've got a RAM 2500 cummins". RV salesman says "you'll be fine, your truck can tow it!"
Then on the trip home they have one of those "oh crap" moments so they show up on a forum like this one. Only to be told that they bought the wrong new $70k truck.

B

 

[UglyViking]

Good points @H3LZSN1P3R and @UglyViking , and agree with the practical aspects. I've done the same and accepted the same risks.

Who I think might benefit from knowing things here is that scenario of a first time 5th wheel buyer (lots of those now). The salesman convinces him he needs that 16k toy hauler and the wife agrees. Then comes the truck part - "I've got a RAM 2500 cummins". RV salesman says "you'll be fine, your truck can tow it!"
Then on the trip home they have one of those "oh crap" moments so they show up on a forum like this one. Only to be told that they bought the wrong new $70k truck.

B

Agreed 100%. The best recommendation for anyone looking at buying a 5th wheel or travel trailer would be to figure out roughly what you want first, and look at the max weight of that (plus whatever you're loading it up with) and pick a truck that has extra over what you need.

Also note that most rv manufactures somehow lowball the weight and hitch/pin weight so having more than you need is always good.

 

[roegs]

Very good discussion that is well written. When looking at 2500HD trucks from the big 3, I still like GM's approach where you can order the GVWR sticker that you want from their selection. As mentioned, different states (and countries) vary in how they handle licensing etc. for these trucks and for those like me who prefer to work within the sticker value, it would seem to make sense. I have a RAM 3500 on order, but had I purchased a GM truck, I'd have bought the 2500 with a larger GVWR sticker.

 

[fuchsroehre]

Hello,
I am looking for a 1lbs GVWR increase.

Earlier this year I bought the 2500 Cummins for the air springs on the rear axle and certainly it is a smooth and comfortable ride. Glad I bought this one.
My last vehicle was a Gen3 Tacoma Sport V6 and I think the comfort level is slightly better in the RAM. You can feel that the suspension is a little harsh with some potholes but overall ride quality is better in the 3/4 ton RAM than it was in the Tacoma. I still can not believe how the smooth and quiet the Truck rides!

Anyhow, for the smooth air suspension I went with the 3/4 ton truck knowing that this is the only HD truck which offers a pure air suspension on the rear axle. For this feature non 1 ton truck came into consideration. Also this air ride and the cummins made it clear that it has to be a Dodge vehicle.

Back to my question:
Knowing that the local dealer has minimal motivation to research that topic.........
Does anybody have an idea where to get a new door sticker and what else is needed to change the registration of my truck to a GVWR of 10,001lbs?
Background is that in my state MN a registration sticker is about 650$ per year up to 10,000lbs and if you have a 1 ton truck (specified as 10,001lbs or more in my state) then the registration per year is something like 200$.

My son and I were joking about taking a ball pen spring and putting that between the rear axle and the chassis to cope with the additional load of 1lbs. LOL

Besides the above I think that GM and Ford make it very interesting that you can get a 11k lbs GVWR, especially since 1/2ton trucks have more payload than my 3/4 ton truck. Not that I need it anytime soon but who knows? Maybe there is a nice goose neck race trailer popping up in the future?

 

[SL1]

Coming from an engineering background I would say any alteration of any vehicle would legally negate any liability for the manufacturer or their weight rating. Level a vehicle, change the wheel offsets, put a lift on a vehicle? I doubt the manufacture ratings have a legal hold or are valid any longer. Even their payload sticker says based on tires and pressures posted.
I do believe you should buy the best tool for the job you intend to use it for and not short change yourself. Change a door sticker to increase payload? I would bet it would entail a liability indemnity form. Once products are altered the manufacture will insist their liability and engineering are no longer applicable in most cases.
Just my 2cents.

 

[UglyViking]

Hello,
I am looking for a 1lbs GVWR increase.

Earlier this year I bought the 2500 Cummins for the air springs on the rear axle and certainly it is a smooth and comfortable ride. Glad I bought this one.
My last vehicle was a Gen3 Tacoma Sport V6 and I think the comfort level is slightly better in the RAM. You can feel that the suspension is a little harsh with some potholes but overall ride quality is better in the 3/4 ton RAM than it was in the Tacoma. I still can not believe how the smooth and quiet the Truck rides!

Anyhow, for the smooth air suspension I went with the 3/4 ton truck knowing that this is the only HD truck which offers a pure air suspension on the rear axle. For this feature non 1 ton truck came into consideration. Also this air ride and the cummins made it clear that it has to be a Dodge vehicle.

Back to my question:
Knowing that the local dealer has minimal motivation to research that topic.........
Does anybody have an idea where to get a new door sticker and what else is needed to change the registration of my truck to a GVWR of 10,001lbs?
Background is that in my state MN a registration sticker is about 650$ per year up to 10,000lbs and if you have a 1 ton truck (specified as 10,001lbs or more in my state) then the registration per year is something like 200$.

My son and I were joking about taking a ball pen spring and putting that between the rear axle and the chassis to cope with the additional load of 1lbs. LOL

Besides the above I think that GM and Ford make it very interesting that you can get a 11k lbs GVWR, especially since 1/2ton trucks have more payload than my 3/4 ton truck. Not that I need it anytime soon but who knows? Maybe there is a nice goose neck race trailer popping up in the future?

To answer your question, to the best of my knowledge there is no legal way to increase your GVWR at the federal level. Only certified coachmakers (aka manufactures or builders that start with an incomplete vehicle) have the ability to set a GVWR to my knowledge. I know that some states allow you to derate your vehicles GVWR for registration purposes, I'm not sure if that applies to rating higher than sticker but I'd guess no.

If you're worried about the legal ramifications then, again to my knowledge, the only way to up your GVWR is to change vehicle.

On the topic of GM and Ford having the ability to raise GVWR over 10k for their 2500/250 line, yes but I don't know why it matters. Federally there is a class of vehicles with a 10k max, and the 2500/250 line of trucks is supposed to be the answer to that. If you want a truck with a higher GVWR than 10k RAM offers that, it's called a 3500. Ford/GM have all sorts of spring combos to get you to whatever GVWR you want, but I don't understand why people get so hung up on that when a 3500 exists.

 

[Epsilon Plus]

Anyway, point here is that there is a difference between the legal payload/GVWR and the practical payload/GVWR. If you choose to carry/tow over the sticker then you should know 100% that you're opening yourself up to potential legal issues.

A further clarification should be made that breaking this law is still a civil penatly. A fee violation. It is not a crime against the people, or like robbing a bank. It's a "you didn't pay us the right tax" law that was broken.

Also, something to keep in mind, when you hook to a trailer you become a combination. GVWR of your single vehicle, even if looked at by DOT (its not), quits applying and GCWR takes over. Trust and believe if you get pulled over by true blue Trucker F'ers (full growns, DOT cops, State Police...etc) and they bring out the scales, they'll be looking at PER AXLE WEIGHT and TIRE WEIGHT LIMITS printed on your rubbers.

This conversation can also not be had without someone bringing up insurance liability. To which people like me will reply that your insurance covers your negligence just like they do with a DUI or crashing your Corvette at 120MPH. "But you can be sued civilly!" Yes. You can be sued civilly for farting in an elevator, this is not unique to taking a 2500 over 10k. Will it work against you? Maybe. That's up to the lawyers to fight out and the judge/jury hearing the case but those things are unpredictable.

 

[Lary0071]

I think the point being missed here is that the 10K gross on a 3/4 ton is to allow for a contractor/business to buy a 14K trailer and 10K truck and be in combination at 24K lbs and not be required to have DOT numbers. issues. That is why your 2500 has a 10K gross and why the payload number is knee-capped. Looking at the 2 truck axles gross ratings you'll likely see around 12K lb gross on your 2500. But to make it easier for Joe the Plumber and Jim the carpenter to have trucks and trailers out in the field with employees running standard drivers licenses and no DOT numbers/fees, he needs to keep that truck at 10K lbs or less.

I've always understood that the 2500/250 class of truck and it's legacy 10K lb registration was born specifically for this reason alone. Otherwise the 10K lb rating has no real world advantage to us private owners. At 26,001 lb combination there is an additional CDL hurdle to overcome as well. Getting a 1 ton at 14K lbs gross with that same 14K lb gross trailer brings big pain to both Joe and Jim mentioned above. Now they are in combination at 28K lbs and well into both CDL and DOT territory, both Joe and Jim will only buy 2500/250 trucks because of this.

I'm not an attorney, so I could be mistaken... but this is how I have always understood it.

 

[fuchsroehre]

Anyone has an idea of whom to contact to get my 10,001lbs GVWR officially stated? I am not intending to break the law, nor would I see an option to go to the registration office to claim that new GVWR without official documentation.
Is there a DOT or something place? I am clueless.
I grew up in Germany and there we have the TUV where you could go to ask these questions. Sometimes you get some very helpful tips. Even though that is a country of endless restrictions and everything seems to be forbitten. Glad to be here in the USA .
Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[BlueOx2500]

The 10k GVWR has to be just a legal technicality when the posted GAWR for my 2500 is 6000 front and 6,040 rear. This tells me that I could put 6,040 lbs on the rear axle, so it can't be a coil vs leaf spring issue here. Real world capability before I break something is??? I get the legal argument and I'm not dismissing that.

Look, full disclosure, I am the dummy that bought a 2500 when I should have probably bought a 3500 by being duped by RAM website and RV websites. I researched and estimated and figured I was well within limits. Well, I got my 5er just the other day I wanted and CAT scaled it - I am literally 120lbs under GVWR, so I am technically within limits - but aggravatingly close with a trailer that still needs to have some stuff put in it yet.

Is it true only GCWR counts at a weigh station? I'm well under that limit at ~17,000 GCWR (and well under GAWR).

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

So the rear axle “limits” 6040 is the coils and 7k is the SRW leafs the 2500 and 3500SRW non HO (11.5) have the same rear axle and brakes so the limit is the coils. AAM rates the 11.5 axle for 10,900lbs so you wont break anything but i would have a set of airbags and try to stay below 6k rear axle weight after all your tires are the weakest link at roughly about 3500lbs max weight each depending on the load index.

So make sure your tires have the proper air for your weight and carry on

 

[BlueOx2500]

Thank you, I should have clarified a couple things there.
1) I do have the factory air suspension.
2) What I meant by the coils not being the limit was in reference to the 10k total, not the difference in a 3500's GAWR vs 2500's. So that makes sense.

It's good to know the axle and brakes are the same. I just figure then if that's the case, one could load the truck to 12k total with 6k on each axle and not actually break anything or crash cause of the weight. My intention is to stay within the GVWR, but I might go as much as 200 lbs over (best estimate) due to my inadequate planning and it would be good to know if the truck is actually going to split in half or not.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Thank you, I should have clarified a couple things there.
1) I do have the factory air suspension.
2) What I meant by the coils not being the limit was in reference to the 10k total, not the difference in a 3500's GAWR vs 2500's. So that makes sense.

It's good to know the axle and brakes are the same. I just figure then if that's the case, one could load the truck to 12k total with 6k on each axle and not actually break anything or crash cause of the weight. My intention is to stay within the GVWR, but I might go as much as 200 lbs over (best estimate) due to my inadequate planning and it would be good to know if the truck is actually going to split in half or not.

I run at around the 12k mark often enough. You should add aftermarket supplemental air bags at the extra weight for stability

 

[AH64ID]

Not really a legal limit, but rather a vehicle classification limit. Ram is keeping 2500’s as Class II vehicles, while 3500’s are Class III. Actual capability doesn’t have anything to do with it. This is also why the GVWR on a DRW is 14K when FAWR+RAWR=15,750… Class III is 14K max.

Fortunately most states don’t recognize manufacturer GVWR on privately used vehicles.

So the rear axle “limits” 6040 is the coils and 7k is the SRW leafs the 2500 and 3500SRW non HO (11.5) have the same rear axle and brakes so the limit is the coils.

Even then all the axles use the same housing, so really 11.5 or 12.0 doesn’t matter for the weight rating. The axle can hold a lot more than the tires can on a SRW. The suspension on a 2500 is the weakest link, and probably on the 3500’s too, but they could be frame limited.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Even then all the axles use the same housing, so really 11.5 or 12.0 doesn’t matter for the weight rating. The axle can hold a lot more than the tires can on a SRW. The suspension on a 2500 is the weakest link, and probably on the 3500’s too, but they could be frame limited.

so they just stuffed the 12” ring gear in the 11.5 housing interesting i had not really looked in to it before. I know the dually has sleeved/thicker walled axle tubes but does it still use the 11.5 gear housing?

 

[AH64ID]

so they just stuffed the 12” ring gear in the 11.5 interesting i had not really looked in to it before. I know the dually has sleeved/thicker walled axle tubes but does it still use the 11.5 gear housing?

I spent some time at a dealership looking up some skirts and there was no discernible difference in 11.5 or 12.0 housings. It appeared as thou they all were 12.0 housings with the appropriate gear set installed.

That also matches the axle ratings, as those don’t change HO vs SO. Also, diff covers are the same.

I do know that the 12.0 carrier and R&P are different SRW vs DRW.