2500 and 5er pin weight

[loveracing1988]

I mean, just as a counter all the 2500s have a swaybar. These 2500s are also pretty underrated due to registration concerns, but I'm not gonna get too deep into that.

Only speaking for myself, I am trying to build a truck that does everything I want well. I realize that a dually 3500 will be better suited for towing than a coil spring 2500, but I also daily drive it and hit a lot of crawling style trails, so the better articulation on the 2500 was my preference. If my primary focus was towing a large goose or 5er, or I full timed, I'd likely have a dually.

I need to get some new videos uploaded but don't discount the crawling capability of the 3500's/ Id be interested to know just how much more articulation a 2500 has vs a 3500. I know design to design the coils beat it but that doesn't always translate in the real world.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

I guess my point is, @H3LZSN1P3R, that it gets old seeing you tell members with 2500 trucks to just "send it" (para) without necessarily having all the facts, and to me that's reckless advice.

Folks come to the forums for sage advice and IMHO, that's not.

Fair enough perhaps i shall try to be less vague. I do tend to forget some people asking questions may have no experience at all and i will try and keep that in mind

 

[UglyViking]

@Brutal_HO, just as a counter, you see just as many posts where folks ask about towing a 7k tow behind and get "you really should have the stability of a dually" sort of answers. While those may not be negligence in the safety factor, it's surely financial negligence.

The long and short fact of the matter is that you can tow anything so long as your truck meets GVWR and CGVWR numbers. Going over or having too much truck becomes a game of opinions and while I'm sure you believe yours is correct it doesn't mean @H3LZSN1P3R, myself, or anyone else is incorrect. After all they are opinions.

In my humble opinion, telling someone they need to deal with the additional costs of a larger truck because they are close to, or slightly over, a number many of us consider only used for registration fee collection is, IMHO, not sage advice.

 

[Bakaruda]

Morning guy's. I'm an FNG to the site but I wanted to comment on the pin weight thing. The only true way I use for pin\tongue weight it a truck scale. I weigh with everything loaded. Then again with the trailer unhooked. The difference if what the trailer is putting on the back of your truck, ie pin\ tongue weight. Just my two cents...

 

[tchur1]

I need to get some new videos uploaded but don't discount the crawling capability of the 3500's/ Id be interested to know just how much more articulation a 2500 has vs a 3500. I know design to design the coils beat it but that doesn't always translate in the real world.

Correct me if im wrong but I believe CJC states in their videos that 3500s have more up and down travel with the leafs by a couple inches than the 2500s.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Correct me if im wrong but I believe CJC states in their videos that 3500s havre more up and down travel with the leafs by a couple inches than the 2500s.

That would make sense as the 2500 link arms are not designed well for any articulation

 

[UglyViking]

Correct me if im wrong but I believe CJC states in their videos that 3500s have more up and down travel with the leafs by a couple inches than the 2500s.

According to Carli's website (which CJC works closely with and uses on almost all their builds) the 2500 and 3500 have the same rear travel. I would suspect it's possible that with custom Carli leafs it's possible to get more travel, but travel ≠ articulation.

That would make sense as the 2500 link arms are not designed well for any articulation

They could be better for sure, they they articulate better than the leaf suspension. If they didn't then A) the power wagon wouldn't use the coils and B) leaf spring trucks wouldn't be discussed as more stable. If the whole argument against heavy weight in the 2500 is because the coils are inboard and thus have more potential for sway, then you can't also say that the 3500 is more stable and also has more articulation.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

According to Carli's website (which CJC works closely with and uses on almost all their builds) the 2500 and 3500 have the same rear travel. I would suspect it's possible that with custom Carli leafs it's possible to get more travel, but travel ≠ articulation.


They could be better for sure, they they articulate better than the leaf suspension. If they didn't then A) the power wagon wouldn't use the coils and B) leaf spring trucks wouldn't be discussed as more stable. If the whole argument against heavy weight in the 2500 is because the coils are inboard and thus have more potential for sway, then you can't also say that the 3500 is more stable and also has more articulation.

I should say they havea bit more travel

 

[darrellr]

@Brutal_HO, just as a counter, you see just as many posts where folks ask about towing a 7k tow behind and get "you really should have the stability of a dually" sort of answers. While those may not be negligence in the safety factor, it's surely financial negligence.

The long and short fact of the matter is that you can tow anything so long as your truck meets GVWR and CGVWR numbers. Going over or having too much truck becomes a game of opinions and while I'm sure you believe yours is correct it doesn't mean @H3LZSN1P3R, myself, or anyone else is incorrect. After all they are opinions.

In my humble opinion, telling someone they need to deal with the additional costs of a larger truck because they are close to, or slightly over, a number many of us consider only used for registration fee collection is, IMHO, not sage advice.

I agree, a DRW would be overkill for a 7k bumper pull. Fiancially - there is about $1500 difference between 2500 and 3500, and about another $1500 for SRW to DRW upgrade. So $3000 difference between them on a $75000 truck. We are not talking orders of magnitude here.

 

[UglyViking]

I agree, a DRW would be overkill for a 7k bumper pull. Fiancially - there is about $1500 difference between 2500 and 3500, and about another $1500 for SRW to DRW upgrade. So $3000 difference between them on a $75000 truck. We are not talking orders of magnitude here.

I'm not necessarily talking about the difference between buying one or the other, but rather if you already have the one and are looking at getting the other. Then, at least in normal times, it's a rather large financial burden that is further exacerbated by taxes, insurance costs, registration, etc. That said, my advice to anyone is that they should start with what they want to tow and go from there. If you purchase a heavy pin weight 18k 5er and then think you're gonna get a 2500 to tow it, well that's obviously insanity.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

I agree, a DRW would be overkill for a 7k bumper pull. Fiancially - there is about $1500 difference between 2500 and 3500, and about another $1500 for SRW to DRW upgrade. So $3000 difference between them on a $75000 truck. We are not talking orders of magnitude here.

Like my situation i was stuck with what i could find at the time (had to drive 5 hrs just to pick this one up that was on a lot there were 0 3500s available in my province) i wont be dropping 55k to buy a new truck that would be stupid.

 

[Riccochet]

I also wanted a 3500, but there virtually zero used 3500 6.4's within 800 miles of me at the time I was buying. Lucky to have found the 2500 I did buy.

 

[darrellr]

I'm not necessarily talking about the difference between buying one or the other, but rather if you already have the one and are looking at getting the other. Then, at least in normal times, it's a rather large financial burden that is further exacerbated by taxes, insurance costs, registration, etc. That said, my advice to anyone is that they should start with what they want to tow and go from there. If you purchase a heavy pin weight 18k 5er and then think you're gonna get a 2500 to tow it, well that's obviously insanity.

So, if you don't already have a truck to pull the trailer you bought, and you bought a 2500, it would be insanely unsafe. But if you buy a 3500 to pull that particular trailer, that is safely sane. But if you already have a 2500, it is not insanely unsafe to tow the same trailer that it would be insanely unsafe to pull with a new 2500? Got it.

 

[UglyViking]

So, if you don't already have a truck to pull the trailer you bought, and you bought a 2500, it would be insanely unsafe. But if you buy a 3500 to pull that particular trailer, that is safely sane. But if you already have a 2500, it is not insanely unsafe to tow the same trailer that it would be insanely unsafe to pull with a new 2500? Got it.

Taken to the extreme all arguments are comical.

My point about the insanely large 5er was that trying to tow it with a 2500 was obvious insanity. My point beyond that is that there is a "grey area" where the truck "can" tow the trailer if you stay within the GAWRs, but a lot of people insist that you must stay within the payload numbers. If you're going to buy something new off the lot, and have the cash then by all means buy whatever you want. If cost comes into consideration, like it does for most of us, then you really need to decide if that extra is something that is justified.

I feel like I'm battling a bit of a strawman argument that was setup from an incorrect reading of my comment, and frankly I doubt I'll convince anyone of anything here so I'll leave it at that.

 

[foneguy]

I hear ya @UglyViking....same boat, but I'm at the pay load limit loaded, yet WAY under towing capacity.....if prices come down ill ge a 1ton, but yet they way our government is with fuel, we wont be able to afford fuel in 10 years .....and we ALL know electric trucks will never be affordable and there wont be any that will do what we need......camp on brother!

 

[Khsgt]

I have watched this and many other threads on this topic. Whether it is possible or safe to be over your stickered weight is an irrelevant discussion. The financial liability you assume if you are over your stickered weight is huge. You will have given your insurance company valid cause to deny total coverage, of your vehicle and any other vehicle you damage, Whether you are at fault or not. You have also given anyone else who might be otherwise be At fault and liable for an accident cause to put the liability on you. The same can be said for anyone in a state that requires licensing over 26k (texas as an example). If you are towing over that (my 3500srw and solitude 378mbs is over 26k gcvw), go get the class A non CDL licence or all of the above also applies. There are too many lawyers looking for any reason to make a buck to put a target on your back.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

I have watched this and many other threads on this topic. Whether it is possible or safe to be over your stickered weight is an irrelevant discussion. The financial liability you assume if you are over your stickered weight is huge. You will have given your insurance company valid cause to deny total coverage, of your vehicle and any other vehicle you damage, Whether you are at fault or not. You have also given anyone else who might be otherwise be At fault and liable for an accident cause to put the liability on you. The same can be said for anyone in a state that requires licensing over 26k (texas as an example). If you are towing over that (my 3500srw and solitude 378mbs is over 26k gcvw), go get the class A non CDL licence or all of the above also applies. There are too many lawyers looking for any reason to make a buck to put a target on your back.

Show me one instance with actual proof someone was denied insurance coverage…. My insurance has no listing of over weight being a cause of denial in the 4 pages of legal crap…

 

[SL1]

If that was a reason for denial most car wrecks would not be covered. Heck our Lexus es 350 sedan has like 900 pounds of payload.
I mean 4 well fed people and a few bags of groceries and it would be illegal.

Im not saying its all ok, I feel that just using your better judgement should prevail. Im sure its different for CDL's and those that live in communist's states though.

 

[UglyViking]

I have watched this and many other threads on this topic. Whether it is possible or safe to be over your stickered weight is an irrelevant discussion. The financial liability you assume if you are over your stickered weight is huge. You will have given your insurance company valid cause to deny total coverage, of your vehicle and any other vehicle you damage, Whether you are at fault or not. You have also given anyone else who might be otherwise be At fault and liable for an accident cause to put the liability on you. The same can be said for anyone in a state that requires licensing over 26k (texas as an example). If you are towing over that (my 3500srw and solitude 378mbs is over 26k gcvw), go get the class A non CDL licence or all of the above also applies. There are too many lawyers looking for any reason to make a buck to put a target on your back.

If this were the actual case I'm surprised that we don't see more about this online in truck forums, trailer forums, or facebook groups. I haven't seen a single instance of someones insurance dropping them, or worse them being found liable, for being over payload. The only case I can recall in recent memory involved a Ford that was grossly overloaded, even axle ratings if early numbers are to be believed, and who seems to be in hot water because a couple died after the trailer disconnected from the truck. I'd think there is more to that story than simple negligence, but either way I can't recall a single instance outside that.

To each his own, and if you feel that a piece of paper is going to make you a safer driver towing then by all means. Frankly, I'm not worried about my own driving, it's the other yahoos on the road that scare me.

 

[Brutal_HO]

Insurance is pretty much by definition, coverage for stupid.

This theory of denied coverage gets tossed around a lot, but like @UglyViking said, I doubt anyone has ever seen an actual report of being denied coverage. They cover DUI, then promptly drop you. Last time I checked, DUI was still illegal.