2500 - GVWR and payload

[H3LZSN1P3R]

I spent some time at a dealership looking up some skirts and there was no discernible difference in 11.5 or 12.0 housings. It appeared as thou they all were 12.0 housings with the appropriate gear set installed.

That also matches the axle ratings, as those don’t change HO vs SO. Also, diff covers are the same.

I do know that the 12.0 carrier and R&P are different SRW vs DRW.

Interesting so in reality one could likely put the 12” ring gear and pinion in the 11.5” housing id assume the carrier would be the same (not that i intend to just being theoretical). I had noticed before banks diff cover said for both the 11.5 and the 12 so that makes sense i had just never looked in to it. Thanks for the info

 

[AH64ID]

I don’t know on the carrier.

I do recall the 11.8” R&P fitting the 11.5” carrier, so maybe??

I’m actually surprised the 11.8” isn’t the standard R&P. Nothing wrong with the 11.5”, but there has been a big power and GCWR bump since it was introduced.

 

[jetrinka]

Don’t the 11.5” axles neck down at the wheels whereas the 12” don’t? Larger spindles/bearings perhaps?

 

[AH64ID]

Don’t the 11.5” axles neck down at the wheels whereas the 12” don’t? Larger spindles/bearings perhaps?

I don’t recall seeing a difference.

The spindle/bearings support the axle weight, which is the same 11.5 or 12.0, so I’d be surprised if they are different.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Don’t the 11.5” axles neck down at the wheels whereas the 12” don’t? Larger spindles/bearings perhaps?

Not that i can tell it seems as if the hub bearing numbers are the same from what i just looked up the DRW is different though

 

[jetrinka]

Not that i can tell it seems as if the hub bearing numbers are the same from what i just looked up the DRW is different though

Maybe that’s what I’m thinking of - the difference between SRW and DRW

 

[BlueOx2500]

Not really a legal limit, but rather a vehicle classification limit. Ram is keeping 2500’s as Class II vehicles, while 3500’s are Class III. Actual capability doesn’t have anything to do with it. This is also why the GVWR on a DRW is 14K when FAWR+RAWR=15,750… Class III is 14K max.

Fortunately most states don’t recognize manufacturer GVWR on privately used vehicles.



Even then all the axles use the same housing, so really 11.5 or 12.0 doesn’t matter for the weight rating. The axle can hold a lot more than the tires can on a SRW. The suspension on a 2500 is the weakest link, and probably on the 3500’s too, but they could be frame limited.

Thanks for the info. I didn't realize the DRW faced a similar issue with the numbers.

Do you know how best find if a state does recognize the manufacturer GVWR?

 

[AH64ID]

Do you know how best find if a state does recognize the manufacturer GVWR?

Not an easy way. Research the laws and statues where your truck is registered.

 

[BlueOx2500]

Not an easy way. Research the laws and statues where your truck is registered.

Fair enough.

 

[CoffeeMan]

I run at around the 12k mark often enough. You should add aftermarket supplemental air bags at the extra weight for stability

Appreciate all the information on this full thread... I learned a lot. I am in a similar situation as @BlueOx2500 (Ordered my 2500 Cummins Diesel 2.5 years ago from factory based on data saying it can tow a 20,000 trailer, and hearing from many RAM 2500 owners and the RAM sales guy that it is great fit to tow a 5th wheel.) Note I own a travel trailer and have never owned a 5th wheel so was not paying attention to payload weight. But, I bought the truck with plans to upgrade to a 5th wheel to make mamma happy I am now shopping for that 5th wheels and had that aha moment mentioned above by @kobra

Looks like many of you have towed over 10K GVWR on 2500 Cummins Diesel rig, and I had heard this from many others, but now understand the "why" people do it and have some data and facts to back up the "why" from some smart people who have done the research on what the truck can safely tow (understanding the legal/insurance persepctive also outlined in this thread).

So, based on my new understanding of all the truck specs related to towing and where the 10K GVWR limit comes from, does anyone on this thread think I am making a big mistake or being "unsafe" buying a 5th wheel and towing as follows:
1. I weighed my truck on a CAT Scale this weekend....Rear Axel is at 3380, front axel is 5000 (Truck fully loaded with both passengers, full fuel/def, and hitch).
that puts me at 8380 GVWR
2. 5th wheel has "spec" pin weight of 2390, which will put my rear axel at 5770 (2390+3380), under the axel and tire ratings (GAWR on rear is 6040 on sticker, and my 35" tires rated at 3700 x 2tires = 7400 for 2 tires). But, this puts me over 10K GVWR at almost 11K
3. 5th wheel RV loaded GVWR is about 16K pounds (Well under the 19500 that my truck manual says my diesel can tow).
4. Planning to add air bags as suggested.

Note, I will most likely upgrade this truck in the next 3-5 years, but want the 5th wheel now.. Since I ordered the truck from factory 2. 5 years ago and it is exactly what I want, don't really want to take the loss now on depreciation and trade for 3500 yet.

Am I being unsafe here or missing something significant in this thread based on what the RAM 2500 diesel is actually designed and built to tow??
(I do recognize and understand the Insurance and legal 10K DOT concerns hightlighted in thread).

Just wanting opinions from others with more experience towing 5th wheels on RAM 2500 Diesel to keep me honest in my thinking.
Thanks!

 

[UglyViking]

Appreciate all the information on this full thread... I learned a lot. I am in a similar situation as @BlueOx2500 (Ordered my 2500 Cummins Diesel 2.5 years ago from factory based on data saying it can tow a 20,000 trailer, and hearing from many RAM 2500 owners and the RAM sales guy that it is great fit to tow a 5th wheel.) Note I own a travel trailer and have never owned a 5th wheel so was not paying attention to payload weight. But, I bought the truck with plans to upgrade to a 5th wheel to make mamma happy I am now shopping for that 5th wheels and had that aha moment mentioned above by @kobra

Looks like many of you have towed over 10K GVWR on 2500 Cummins Diesel rig, and I had heard this from many others, but now understand the "why" people do it and have some data and facts to back up the "why" from some smart people who have done the research on what the truck can safely tow (understanding the legal/insurance persepctive also outlined in this thread).

So, based on my new understanding of all the truck specs related to towing and where the 10K GVWR limit comes from, does anyone on this thread think I am making a big mistake or being "unsafe" buying a 5th wheel and towing as follows:
1. I weighed my truck on a CAT Scale this weekend....Rear Axel is at 3380, front axel is 5000 (Truck fully loaded with both passengers, full fuel/def, and hitch).
that puts me at 8380 GVWR
2. 5th wheel has "spec" pin weight of 2390, which will put my rear axel at 5770 (2390+3380), under the axel and tire ratings (GAWR on rear is 6040 on sticker, and my 35" tires rated at 3700 x 2tires = 7400 for 2 tires). But, this puts me over 10K GVWR at almost 11K
3. 5th wheel RV loaded GVWR is about 16K pounds (Well under the 19500 that my truck manual says my diesel can tow).
4. Planning to add air bags as suggested.

Note, I will most likely upgrade this truck in the next 3-5 years, but want the 5th wheel now.. Since I ordered the truck from factory 2. 5 years ago and it is exactly what I want, don't really want to take the loss now on depreciation and trade for 3500 yet.

Am I being unsafe here or missing something significant in this thread based on what the RAM 2500 diesel is actually designed and built to tow??
(I do recognize and understand the Insurance and legal 10K DOT concerns hightlighted in thread).

Just wanting opinions from others with more experience towing 5th wheels on RAM 2500 Diesel to keep me honest in my thinking.
Thanks!

A few quick things.

1. You're going to hear a lot of varying answers on this, depending on the persons individual perspective, concerns around what he/she thinks is "safe", etc. End of the day, you're well outside payload as you know, you're going to be at least touching the GRAWR, possibly above, which is potentially a concern with DOT (if you ever run into them is another topic). My point here is that you're gonna hear a lot both ways, your comfort level with these things is going to be the biggest deal moving forward.
2. Pin weight spec is almost always well under what reality is. Pin weight doesn't account for things like batteries, propane, etc. also keep in mind that your hitch is going to add a few hundred pounds to your trucks payload, and if you've got a short bed, it's either gonna have to be a slider, or it's gonna need to be pushed past the rear axle. That's going to add weight or remove stability depending on which you choose.
3. All "what can my truck tow" numbers are almost always a lie. You can prob tow 19500 with a pintle hitch trailer with some perfectly setup trailer, but it almost for sure doesn't exist in the real world. I personally never concern myself with max tow numbers, so long as it's within what my axles and tires can handle I'm personally comfortable with it.
4. A good buddy of mine has a 2500 with a full aftermarket Thuren suspension on 37s. He tows a 16.5k trailer with 5k airbags (although he wants to step up to 7500s. I personally would not feel comfortable with that, but he does and feels fine. His argument is that the 3500 and 2500 are identical except for the coil/leaf suspension. The 3500 axle is rates for something like 7k vs our 6k. His argument is that adding bags adds stability and removes some pin weight by leveling, thus he isn't concerned. I tow my 20k toyhauler with a '14 3500 HO with 4.10s because I wanted the stability and more usable payload than I'd ever need. Oddly enough, I could legally stuff way lighter weight leafs in my 3500 which functionally turn it into a 2500 and still be legally good, so again the law is full of grey.

Personally, if it were me, I'd wait on the 5er, or suck it up and take the loss. I've towed with these 2500s cross country with a tow behind and I did not enjoy the suspension of the coil in factory config, or with timbrens. I've heard that airbags help quite a bit, but they aren't a magic bullet. I should again clarify that the payload numbers on the 2500 are meaningless. The axle ratings however I treat as legit. I'd be ok with getting close, but soon as you're going above them, I'd get concerned personally.

That said, there will likely be someone behind me that says you are 100% clear to run it. So again, what's your comfort level here? Considering the fact you're laying all this data out, and basically every single data point leads to "you shouldn't do this" I'm not sure what else can be said.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Appreciate all the information on this full thread... I learned a lot. I am in a similar situation as @BlueOx2500 (Ordered my 2500 Cummins Diesel 2.5 years ago from factory based on data saying it can tow a 20,000 trailer, and hearing from many RAM 2500 owners and the RAM sales guy that it is great fit to tow a 5th wheel.) Note I own a travel trailer and have never owned a 5th wheel so was not paying attention to payload weight. But, I bought the truck with plans to upgrade to a 5th wheel to make mamma happy I am now shopping for that 5th wheels and had that aha moment mentioned above by @kobra

Looks like many of you have towed over 10K GVWR on 2500 Cummins Diesel rig, and I had heard this from many others, but now understand the "why" people do it and have some data and facts to back up the "why" from some smart people who have done the research on what the truck can safely tow (understanding the legal/insurance persepctive also outlined in this thread).

So, based on my new understanding of all the truck specs related to towing and where the 10K GVWR limit comes from, does anyone on this thread think I am making a big mistake or being "unsafe" buying a 5th wheel and towing as follows:
1. I weighed my truck on a CAT Scale this weekend....Rear Axel is at 3380, front axel is 5000 (Truck fully loaded with both passengers, full fuel/def, and hitch).
that puts me at 8380 GVWR
2. 5th wheel has "spec" pin weight of 2390, which will put my rear axel at 5770 (2390+3380), under the axel and tire ratings (GAWR on rear is 6040 on sticker, and my 35" tires rated at 3700 x 2tires = 7400 for 2 tires). But, this puts me over 10K GVWR at almost 11K
3. 5th wheel RV loaded GVWR is about 16K pounds (Well under the 19500 that my truck manual says my diesel can tow).
4. Planning to add air bags as suggested.

Note, I will most likely upgrade this truck in the next 3-5 years, but want the 5th wheel now.. Since I ordered the truck from factory 2. 5 years ago and it is exactly what I want, don't really want to take the loss now on depreciation and trade for 3500 yet.

Am I being unsafe here or missing something significant in this thread based on what the RAM 2500 diesel is actually designed and built to tow??
(I do recognize and understand the Insurance and legal 10K DOT concerns hightlighted in thread).

Just wanting opinions from others with more experience towing 5th wheels on RAM 2500 Diesel to keep me honest in my thinking.
Thanks!

The axles are rated at 10,900lbs from the manufacture so you wont be at risk of a terrible failure i personally would have no issue pulling that load with a good set of airbags i have towed my buddys momentum by grand river and it is 16k gvwr and it was loaded down heavy i had no issues and never any uncomfortable feeling and it towed quite nicely

 

[Lary0071]

"5th wheel has "spec" pin weight of 2390"

Add 1,000 lbs to that while your pondering. I own a fiver, the manufactures empty pin weight is not even day dream close to reality.

 

[UglyViking]

The axles are rated at 10,900lbs from the manufacture so you wont be at risk of a terrible failure […]

While I agree that the axle rating from AAM is vastly higher than Ram's rating it's worth noting that in the highest spec 3500 (non-chassis cab) Ram only rates the rear for 9750 lbs. Now, whether or not that is due to keeping the 3500 in a certain class like the 2500 or not I'm not sure. I'm also not sure if there are differences in the rear axle between the 3500 and the 3500 chassis cab.

I do know that the 3500 C&C has a different frame and brake setup, so I'd wager that at least some of that is due to frame and brake setup.

I don't intend to change your mind here, simply stating some data for ref.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

While I agree that the axle rating from AAM is vastly higher than Ram's rating it's worth noting that in the highest spec 3500 (non-chassis cab) Ram only rates the rear for 9750 lbs. Now, whether or not that is due to keeping the 3500 in a certain class like the 2500 or not I'm not sure. I'm also not sure if there are differences in the rear axle between the 3500 and the 3500 chassis cab.

I do know that the 3500 C&C has a different frame and brake setup, so I'd wager that at least some of that is due to frame and brake setup.

I don't intend to change your mind here, simply stating some data for ref.

The chassis cab is a 3rd member style axle with a full banjo housing. The biggest reason both GM and RAM rate the 11.5 lower is CYA lawyer crap.

 

[jsalbre]

None of the 4.5 gen Ram HDs actually use the 11.5" axle except for 19-22 Power Wagons. Everything else has the 12" axle with 11.5" ring gear, (aside from the HO with the 12" ring gear of course).

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

None of the 4.5 gen Ram HDs actually use the 11.5" axle except for 19-22 Power Wagons. Everything else has the 12" axle with 11.5" ring gear, (aside from the HO with the 12" ring gear of course).

No thats false the 12” ring gear is in the 11.5 housing the 11.5 is the axle the trucks use

 

[AH64ID]

No thats false the 12” ring gear is in the 11.5 housing the 11.5 is the axle the trucks use

Don’t think so, all the 19+ trucks aside from the PW get the 12.0” housing. Not all of them get the 12.0” R&P, only the HO’s.

This is the opposite of how the 11.8/11.5 worked.

 

[jsalbre]

No thats false the 12” ring gear is in the 11.5 housing the 11.5 is the axle the trucks use

Nope, as AH64ID said, it’s the 12” housing.

Here’s an 11.5”:


And here’s the 12” on my 2023:

 

[BlueOx2500]

Appreciate all the information on this full thread... I learned a lot. I am in a similar situation as @BlueOx2500 (Ordered my 2500 Cummins Diesel 2.5 years ago from factory based on data saying it can tow a 20,000 trailer, and hearing from many RAM 2500 owners and the RAM sales guy that it is great fit to tow a 5th wheel.) Note I own a travel trailer and have never owned a 5th wheel so was not paying attention to payload weight. But, I bought the truck with plans to upgrade to a 5th wheel to make mamma happy I am now shopping for that 5th wheels and had that aha moment mentioned above by @kobra

Looks like many of you have towed over 10K GVWR on 2500 Cummins Diesel rig, and I had heard this from many others, but now understand the "why" people do it and have some data and facts to back up the "why" from some smart people who have done the research on what the truck can safely tow (understanding the legal/insurance persepctive also outlined in this thread).

So, based on my new understanding of all the truck specs related to towing and where the 10K GVWR limit comes from, does anyone on this thread think I am making a big mistake or being "unsafe" buying a 5th wheel and towing as follows:
1. I weighed my truck on a CAT Scale this weekend....Rear Axel is at 3380, front axel is 5000 (Truck fully loaded with both passengers, full fuel/def, and hitch).
that puts me at 8380 GVWR
2. 5th wheel has "spec" pin weight of 2390, which will put my rear axel at 5770 (2390+3380), under the axel and tire ratings (GAWR on rear is 6040 on sticker, and my 35" tires rated at 3700 x 2tires = 7400 for 2 tires). But, this puts me over 10K GVWR at almost 11K
3. 5th wheel RV loaded GVWR is about 16K pounds (Well under the 19500 that my truck manual says my diesel can tow).
4. Planning to add air bags as suggested.

Note, I will most likely upgrade this truck in the next 3-5 years, but want the 5th wheel now.. Since I ordered the truck from factory 2. 5 years ago and it is exactly what I want, don't really want to take the loss now on depreciation and trade for 3500 yet.

Am I being unsafe here or missing something significant in this thread based on what the RAM 2500 diesel is actually designed and built to tow??
(I do recognize and understand the Insurance and legal 10K DOT concerns hightlighted in thread).

Just wanting opinions from others with more experience towing 5th wheels on RAM 2500 Diesel to keep me honest in my thinking.
Thanks!

I get it if you want a bigger 5th wheel, but Grand Design does have some nice smaller ones that would keep you under or close to the GVWR. I love my 270BN and it is actually keeps my truck under the 10k GVWR loaded down, albeit, not by much. However, as stated before for safety purposes what seems to matter most is not exceeding GCWR. GAWR and tire ratings.