Cummins caught emissions cheating - fined 1.67 billion mega thread.

[H3LZSN1P3R]

I have owned many diesel trucks in my life. This is my first ram. My last diesel was a 2009 f250 power stroke 6.4. These trucks have the worst wrap, it has been one of the best trucks and one of the first emissions put on a diesel. That being said I own a construction company and used to tow heavy equipment now I find it easier to have hot shots tow it for me from site to site. This truck was bought to tow my camper and love the way it tows but would want it to last me years to come . I only put a few thousand miles a year now,and take exceptional care of all my trucks and cars. So for me if this truck ain’t going to be reliable and tow what it was bought for, I would like to be compisated

No one said it would affect reliability though so thats completely speculation at this point

 

[Adam06]

No one said it would affect reliability though so thats completely speculation at this point

Then why cheat? It as done for some advantage. We shall see

 

[CaliMax]

Then why cheat? It as done for some advantage. We shall see

According to press release published today, Cummins states "the company has seen no evidence that anyone acted in bad faith and does not admit wrongdoing."

We’ll have to see how this story develops but I suspect that the EPA and Cummins are tussling over how the red tape should be interpreted. I was an Ecodiesel owner as well and if things play out the same as before, we may have to take a hit on one or more of power, reliability or fuel efficiency. Actually, from Cummin’s press release, they have not even acknowledged a problem with the 2020+ trucks.

 

[Adam06]

We’ll have to see how this story develops but I suspect that the EPA and Cummins are tussling over how the red tape should be interpreted. I was an Ecodiesel owner as well and if things play out the same as before, we may have to take a hit on one or more of power, reliability or fuel efficiency. Actually, from Cummin’s press release, they have not even acknowledged a problem with the 2020+ trucks.

Yea not buying that they definitely knew . These engineers know what they are producing and the parameters they are working with. When it comes to billions and billions made sometimes there is a loss. I run a successful construction company and know losses are good write offs

 

[Adam06]

You know what they say the fat man gets fatter and the skinny man sometimes gets fed

 

[steve49]

In Fridays news release from Cummins they state:

"Cummins disclosed a review of these matters when it began in 2019 and has regularly updated its disclosures as that review progressed. The company has already recalled model year 2019 RAM 2500 and 3500 trucks and has initiated a recall of model years 2013 through 2018 RAM 2500 and 3500 trucks and previously accrued a total of $59 million for the estimated costs for executing these and other related recalls."

As I stated previouly my 2019 had the VB6 Diesel Engine Emissons Calibration recall done in February 2020, which I believe was the fix regarding this issue, since they were well aware of the issue starting in early 2019. I can't see Cummins/Ram correcting just the 19's and not correcting the later newer models, so at this point I'm thinking the issue at hand is the 2013-18's for a recall! It only makes sense to fix the newer models first to keep production going, and then deal with the older models afterwards. So unless those of us with 19 and newer get an emmissons recall in the future mail, I think we're good to go! That's my theroy and I'm sticking to it, but I could be wrong!

 

[flan]

Maybe the VB6 equivalent will be the fix for the newer trucks with the dang DPF issues we keep reading about!

 

[CaliMax]

The company also allegedly installed undisclosed auxiliary emission control devices on 330,000 model year 2019 to 2023 RAM 2500 and 3500 pickup truck engines.

Some info from CARB that is relevant: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/news/carb-wa...ut-hiding-software-or-hardware-changes-affect

AECDs are designed to change the operation of emissions control equipment when required by specific, sometimes extreme driving conditions and generally are designed to protect the engine – for example, when a truck is pulling a maximum load uphill in hot weather for an extended period of time.

Also:

These violations have resulted in settlements involving substantial fines and recalls to fix or remove the illegal modifications and mitigate the environmental impact of excess emissions.
...

If fully disclosed when the vehicle is being certified for sale in California, an AECD may be legal as there may be a technically justified rationale for its limited use

The VB6 recall was only applied to 91000 vehicles but the DOJ release talks about 330K. Since Cummins doesn't talk about the 2020+ trucks in their press release, I can only assume that either they have fixed the calibration (Y43 recall?) or CARB and the EPA have agreed to accept the fine and let them use it. Otherwise, we may be looking at a software flash that could make the truck tuning less safe under extreme load. If that happens, it should come with an extended warranty and potentially a check. I don't think there is a reason to panic just yet.

 

[Adam06]

Some info from CARB that is relevant: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/news/carb-wa...ut-hiding-software-or-hardware-changes-affect



Also:


The VB6 recall was only applied to 91000 vehicles but the DOJ release talks about 330K. Since Cummins doesn't talk about the 2020+ trucks in their press release, I can only assume that either they have fixed the calibration (Y43 recall?) or CARB and the EPA have agreed to accept the fine and let them use it. Otherwise, we may be looking at a software flash that could make the truck tuning less safe under extreme load. If that happens, it should come with an extended warranty and potentially a check. I don't think there is a reason to panic just yet.

I would think that when we purchased theses trucks we had a understanding on ho and tq and if any new software compromise these numbers it would be a fraudulent sale which would require a person who purchased a vehicle made whole. Not just what they paid but what they have invested.

 

[mhraxo]

Some info from CARB that is relevant: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/news/carb-wa...ut-hiding-software-or-hardware-changes-affect



Also:


The VB6 recall was only applied to 91000 vehicles but the DOJ release talks about 330K. Since Cummins doesn't talk about the 2020+ trucks in their press release, I can only assume that either they have fixed the calibration (Y43 recall?) or CARB and the EPA have agreed to accept the fine and let them use it. Otherwise, we may be looking at a software flash that could make the truck tuning less safe under extreme load. If that happens, it should come with an extended warranty and potentially a check. I don't think there is a reason to panic just yet.

They didn't fix anything with the Y43 recall, it created the regen issues. Mine ran perfectly fine till they did that recall then it went to pots. Now there current debacle to attempt to fix it is the MAFS and drive it around like 4 times for 30 min or so ea in a flat area to "reprogram" it ......LMAO ..... good luck with that since every road around here's name starts with Mount, Valley or Hill.

 

[renagade69]

Cummins admits no wrong doing. THe DOJ is a weaponized arm of the GREEN NEW DEAL. This is speculation but I have seen enough in the news to know that they can push around anyone. They can manipulate data and statutes to screw anyone to get what they want. Cummins may have been wrong but I bet they were rite on the line and fighting the feds in the wrong juristiction and you cant win being rite. Settle.

 

[Rudy35]

Just got a recall notice (Emissions Recall 67A) in the mail today . I don't think so! Truck runs just fine!

 

[CaliMax]

Just got a recall notice (Emissions Recall 67A) in the mail today . I don't think so! Truck runs just fine!

What year?

 

[jsalbre]

Cummins admits no wrong doing. THe DOJ is a weaponized arm of the GREEN NEW DEAL. This is speculation but I have seen enough in the news to know that they can push around anyone. They can manipulate data and statutes to screw anyone to get what they want. Cummins may have been wrong but I bet they were rite on the line and fighting the feds in the wrong juristiction and you cant win being rite. Settle.

Watch out for “them”. “They’re” out to get you!

 

[AH64ID]

What year?

Sig says 2018.

 

[UglyViking]

Just got recall 67A for my 2014 HO. Honestly, I don't know what they are gonna do, but I can't imagine it's gonna make the MPG any worse. HO + 4.10s + DRW is not a great start, add in 35s and it's dumb. On the plus side, the MPG doesn't seem to change much towing, thankfully. I guess we shall see what happens.

I do sort of wonder what this means for tuners. I can't imagine that Cummins was cheating by much if any, and guys like PPEI and Calibrated Power are surely in the crosshairs next right? It's pretty early and a bunch of guess work, so I am jus gonna wait and see, but man it's getting to a point of insanity that's beyond reason.

 

[rfullen280]

Diesel is just the latest target on the way to EV nirvana...

Even the US Gov't admits - diesel is more energy dense than all other fuels. https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=9991 that are currently in use today.

Energy density is the most important choice in a fuel, after you consider storage and transportability (Hydrogen is really powerful, but volatile). Diesel is exceptionally stable...and requires less energy to produce than say... a big-ass open pit lithium mine.

Even Europeans like diesel https://www.acea.auto/fact/differences-between-diesel-and-petrol/

Fossil vs. Alternative Fuels - Energy Content

Net (low) and gross (high) energy content in fossil and alternative fuels.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

Pound for pound, a diesel engine can create more TORQUE - and that's what does the work. Horsepower is just a calculation of torque vs time... great for drag races, but not really important when towing more than a bike rack....and that torque is a product of rotating mass and combustion pressures... things diesels excel at. https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto...city/information/horsepower-versus-torque.htm

Where it gets a little weird is emissions (if you wanna go down a deep rabbit hole, look up Leaded fuel contamination particulate matter on human behavior...) https://theconversation.com/a-centu...-fuel-but-sold-it-for-100-years-anyway-173395

Anyhow, although particulates can affect human breathing - does Diesel Soot reach the volume in the atmosphere that exceeds other contamination sources? Say...like atomized plastic solvents, or urban pollution? How about vs. the effects of a sedentary lifestyle so popular with modern humans? How about vs. factory foods, or the unseen emissions from all the plastics in our kids, our houses, etc?
I have no idea about the questions above, but I do know that Diesel Engines are typically driven (in my circle) by independent thinking or critical thinking people who do math, not feelings, during the day. They work and build things, not destroying societies and civilizations. They construct, and they work, and they play and they just want to be left alone. Not forced to buy EVs (which are moreso harder on the total environment) or buy gasoline (which is less efficient for the work/play they do and less capable).

Diesels are good targets for regulation - and regulation itself is a goal. A good, regulated authority, whom we have to get permission from.

 

[mhraxo]

Diesel is just the latest target on the way to EV nirvana...

Even the US Gov't admits - diesel is more energy dense than all other fuels. https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=9991 that are currently in use today.

Energy density is the most important choice in a fuel, after you consider storage and transportability (Hydrogen is really powerful, but volatile). Diesel is exceptionally stable...and requires less energy to produce than say... a big-ass open pit lithium mine.

Even Europeans like diesel https://www.acea.auto/fact/differences-between-diesel-and-petrol/

Fossil vs. Alternative Fuels - Energy Content

Net (low) and gross (high) energy content in fossil and alternative fuels.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

Pound for pound, a diesel engine can create more TORQUE - and that's what does the work. Horsepower is just a calculation of torque vs time... great for drag races, but not really important when towing more than a bike rack....and that torque is a product of rotating mass and combustion pressures... things diesels excel at. https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto...city/information/horsepower-versus-torque.htm

Where it gets a little weird is emissions (if you wanna go down a deep rabbit hole, look up Leaded fuel contamination particulate matter on human behavior...) https://theconversation.com/a-centu...-fuel-but-sold-it-for-100-years-anyway-173395

Anyhow, although particulates can affect human breathing - does Diesel Soot reach the volume in the atmosphere that exceeds other contamination sources? Say...like atomized plastic solvents, or urban pollution? How about vs. the effects of a sedentary lifestyle so popular with modern humans? How about vs. factory foods, or the unseen emissions from all the plastics in our kids, our houses, etc?
I have no idea about the questions above, but I do know that Diesel Engines are typically driven (in my circle) by independent thinking or critical thinking people who do math, not feelings, during the day. They work and build things, not destroying societies and civilizations. They construct, and they work, and they play and they just want to be left alone. Not forced to buy EVs (which are moreso harder on the total environment) or buy gasoline (which is less efficient for the work/play they do and less capable).

Diesels are good targets for regulation - and regulation itself is a goal. A good, regulated authority, whom we have to get permission from.

Not going to argue your points at all but what doesn't help the diesel world is the coal roller idiots which there is a ton of in PA. I split time between PA/SC and you would think SC would be worse but I barely see it there compared to here so it gives the environmental ppl all the ammo they need to fuel the fight for stricter emissions. Matter of fact just this past summer some 5.9 idiot coal rolled an entire line of ppl waiting outside a local resteraunt on the main drag which 2 happened to be an older couple who are retired PA Legistaltors. Needless to say they are not diesel fans

 

[flan]

Not going to argue your points at all but what doesn't help the diesel world is the coal roller idiots which there is a ton of in PA. I split time between PA/SC and you would think SC would be worse but I barely see it there compared to here so it gives the environmental ppl all the ammo they need to fuel the fight for stricter emissions. Matter of fact just this past summer some 5.9 idiot coal rolled an entire line of ppl waiting outside a local resteraunt on the main drag which 2 happened to be an older couple who are retired PA Legistaltors. Needless to say they are not diesel fans

They do other mouth breather stuff like the Carolina squat.

 

[rfullen280]

Not going to argue your points at all but what doesn't help the diesel world is the coal roller idiots which there is a ton of in PA. I split time between PA/SC and you would think SC would be worse but I barely see it there compared to here so it gives the environmental ppl all the ammo they need to fuel the fight for stricter emissions. Matter of fact just this past summer some 5.9 idiot coal rolled an entire line of ppl waiting outside a local resteraunt on the main drag which 2 happened to be an older couple who are retired PA Legistaltors. Needless to say they are not diesel fans

Dude, can’t even agree harder with you! That ******** ruins it for the rest of us!

There’s not a good reason for that, and the rest of us are lumped in with them. Carolina Squat I’m not gonna google, but I call the rear down, front up a “Bro-ner”….