Carli suspension info

[Chris85xlt]

So looping back in this thread to discuss stock-length upgrade shocks…I’ve been thinking/reading about shocks a bit…

Stock PW shocks (Bilstein) are Digressive (firmer with small displacement, softens with larger displacement). This improves cornering on the road (small displacement) but makes for a relatively stiff/uncomfortable ride over small/medium bumps on the highway, washboard roads. I had Icon shocks, which are also Digressive, on my last truck. It handled really well on the street, tighter than stock, but I was pretty stiff on dirt roads and some speed bumps were brutal.

Fox 2.0 shocks are going to be Progressive. They are going to sacrifice on-road cornering for a smoother ride on washboard roads , and float nicely over small/medium bumps on the highway (think: Raptor). But, be less settled on big bumps offroad such as rock crawling.

Higher end Fox and King will be closer to a Linear valving that should be smooth on road as well as rock crawling.

I think I would like to replace my stock shocks with a Progressive shock, like a Fox 2.0 to get the ride I really desire from this truck. I do some rocky trails/semi-technical wheeling, but I think I would be happier trading some performance there for a smoother, Cadillac ride on the highway and washboard roads. Upgraded bump stops* should help smooth things out offroad where some a Progressive shock might otherwise be a bit harsh.

*i just bought sumo blue for the front, not installed yet… And Will probably get Thuren boogie bumps for the rear.

Does anyone know the extended + compressed lengths of the OEM shocks? I saw a YouTube video where the guy replaced the OEM shocks with Bilstein 5160s, and the shocks for Ram 2500 +2-2.5”F/ +1”R look to be about right…I think maybe be Fox 2.0 for Ram 2500 +0-1.5”F/R shocks might actually fit fine, based on their compressed/extended length compared to the Bilsteins.

Ok that’s enough rambling for now…

I think you have the Progressive and Linear valving the other way around.
Most of the Kings and Fox like the 2.0 etc are Linear where the more expensive Kings and Fox with internal/external bypass are Progressive (like found on Ford Raptors and Toyota Pro's)

Lots of great info on shocks

Digressive vs Linear vs Progressive Pistons & Shock Valving - AccuTune Off-Road

Ryan Raker, the founder and author of this article, has been designing, tuning, and manufacturing shocks with digressive, linear, and progressive damping

accutuneoffroad.com

 

[Trail_Wagon]

It would be helpful to have compressed and extended length of the factory PW shocks. Does anyone have a set floating around in the garage they would be willing to measure?

 

[Trail_Wagon]

I think you have the Progressive and Linear valving the other way around.
Most of the Kings and Fox like the 2.0 etc are Linear where the more expensive Kings and Fox with internal/external bypass are Progressive (like found on Ford Raptors and Toyota Pro's)

Lots of great info on shocks

Digressive vs Linear vs Progressive Pistons & Shock Valving - AccuTune Off-Road

Ryan Raker, the founder and author of this article, has been designing, tuning, and manufacturing shocks with digressive, linear, and progressive damping

accutuneoffroad.com

Its mostly semantics. A generic tune from fox or king will just have a default linear shim stack. It's going to suck. Most custom-tuned shocks will have either a flutter (or two) or use something else, like a bleed shim. The fox 2.0 IFP are actually very clever in that they use a serrated primary bleed shim that allows for fantastic small bump compliance, great large bump control, but doesn't alter rebound so roll and bucking are well controlled. Its very cheap, and makes most folk happy. You can't get a serrated shim for the upper-end shocks, it won't work with their pistons. I don't know why they don't make them. Maybe they expect higher-end shocks to be properly custom valved.

Internal/external bypass shocks are a whole different game and dramatically change firmness based on piston location.

This is what a serrated shim looks like.

At low speed (piston, not truck) The little cutouts allow oil to pass through without disturbing the main shim stack allowing them to completely soak up little things like expansion joints and pebbles. When piston speed increases it activates the rest of the shim stack and the shock has the dampening necessary for moderate bumps. Past that point, it's up to the bump stops.

Here is the piston and shims.

 

[Rockcrawlindude]

You can drill bleed ports into the piston to soften up the shocks on the small stuff. I did that on the pistons for my 2.5”s that I run in the rear of my Toyota. Pics show the bleed ports drilled but not deburred yet

 

[Trail_Wagon]

You can drill bleed ports into the piston to soften up the shocks on the small stuff. I did that on the pistons for my 2.5”s that I run in the rear of my Toyota. Pics show the bleed ports drilled but not deburred yet View attachment 27843View attachment 27844

I used a 0.008 bleed shim for the same reason with good effect. I didn't want to drill holes in a perfectly good piston. 2.5s can be pretty firm!

 

[el_barto]

Its mostly semantics. A generic tune from fox or king will just have a default linear shim stack. It's going to suck. Most custom-tuned shocks will have either a flutter (or two) or use something else, like a bleed shim. The fox 2.0 IFP are actually very clever in that they use a serrated primary bleed shim that allows for fantastic small bump compliance, great large bump control, but doesn't alter rebound so roll and bucking are well controlled. Its very cheap, and makes most folk happy. You can't get a serrated shim for the upper-end shocks, it won't work with their pistons. I don't know why they don't make them. Maybe they expect higher-end shocks to be properly custom valved.

Internal/external bypass shocks are a whole different game and dramatically change firmness based on piston location.

This is what a serrated shim looks like.
View attachment 27841
At low speed (piston, not truck) The little cutouts allow oil to pass through without disturbing the main shim stack allowing them to completely soak up little things like expansion joints and pebbles. When piston speed increases it activates the rest of the shim stack and the shock has the dampening necessary for moderate bumps. Past that point, it's up to the bump stops.

Here is the piston and shims.
View attachment 27842

Helpful, you seem to be pretty knowledgeable on all this.
But… Can you clarify these 2 comments, they seem conflicting:

A generic tune from fox or king will just have a default linear shim stack. It's going to suck.

The fox 2.0 IFP are actually very clever in that they use a serrated primary bleed shim that allows for fantastic small bump compliance, great large bump control, but doesn't alter rebound so roll and bucking are well controlled. Its very cheap, and makes most folk happy.

 

[Trail_Wagon]

Helpful, you seem to be pretty knowledgeable on all this.
But… Can you clarify these 2 comments, they seem conflicting:

Sorry, I mean the generic Factory Race 2.0 and 2.5 with reservoir come without a tune and can be unpleasant. The Performance Series 2.0 IFP shocks that are readily available have the serrated shim and ride great for most people.

 

[el_barto]

Sorry, I mean the generic Factory Race 2.0 and 2.5 with reservoir come without a tune and can be unpleasant. The Performance Series 2.0 IFP shocks that are readily available have the serrated shim and ride great for most people.

Huh interesting…the Fox IFP 2.0’s really starting to sound better and better for the price

 

[Trail_Wagon]

I own a fleet of rental jeeps and have tried a lot of shocks. The Fox performance series 2.0 IFP are some of my favorite for out-of-the-box comfort. A set of well-tuned 2.5's fox or king, can perform much better, but come at a cost. And they have to be tuned. I know the 2500 RAM PW isn't exactly a Rubicon but they do share a lot of suspension design similarities. I'm assuming that their performance will carry over.

I ordered my PW about two weeks ago. I'll let you know when it shows up in.... well. Probably within the next year.

 

[Brewbud]

You drive a 7500lb truck. It will not handle like a car.

I have the Pintop kit and off road on more difficult terrain and more frequently than most people. Honestly, it’s probably not worth the Pintop kit on a power wagon. I would recommend one of the Carli fox setups and looking back I could have saved some money by doing that and I bet been perfectly happy

If you don’t mind spending the coin then I would wait for the new Carli live valve shocks that should drop next year. They should be the best of both worlds. I will probably upgrade to them and sell my Pintop shocks.

I asked Carli if I should think about the new live valve shocks they are testing. I was told to stick with my 3" kings. Just go Dominator @AnthonyD1978 ! LOL

 

[AnthonyD1978]

I think you have the Progressive and Linear valving the other way around.
Most of the Kings and Fox like the 2.0 etc are Linear where the more expensive Kings and Fox with internal/external bypass are Progressive (like found on Ford Raptors and Toyota Pro's)

Lots of great info on shocks

Digressive vs Linear vs Progressive Pistons & Shock Valving - AccuTune Off-Road

Ryan Raker, the founder and author of this article, has been designing, tuning, and manufacturing shocks with digressive, linear, and progressive damping

accutuneoffroad.com

Yup, the Kings for sure are progressive and are tuned with various low/high speed rebound and compression. It's something you can actually feel if you use the suspension on more than just smooth pavement.

 

[AnthonyD1978]

I asked Carli if I should think about the new live valve shocks they are testing. I was told to stick with my 3" kings. Just go Dominator @AnthonyD1978 ! LOL

I wish it were that "easy". I will have to look at the travel of the live valves first. My understanding is that I would lose some travel with the Dominator setup. I need that travel.

 

[Brewbud]

I wish it were that "easy". I will have to look at the travel of the live valves first. My understanding is that I would lose some travel with the Dominator setup. I need that travel.

I gotcha. I looked at that when I went Dominator. You do lose a small amount of front travel (.75") with the Dominator vs Pintop. My conclusion was it wouldn't affect my usage. I am still gonna get where I need to go. I am just gonna get there faster and with a better ride. Everybody had different wants/needs though.

 

[el_barto]

I own a fleet of rental jeeps and have tried a lot of shocks. The Fox performance series 2.0 IFP are some of my favorite for out-of-the-box comfort. A set of well-tuned 2.5's fox or king, can perform much better, but come at a cost. And they have to be tuned. I know the 2500 RAM PW isn't exactly a Rubicon but they do share a lot of suspension design similarities. I'm assuming that their performance will carry over.

I ordered my PW about two weeks ago. I'll let you know when it shows up in.... well. Probably within the next year.

I’m going for it and going to try the off-the-shelf Fox 2.0’s
No issues or major complaints with the stock bilsteins (they only have 25k miles on them), but sounds like this will be a worthwhile improvement in ride quality for my use case.

Custom tuned Fox 2.5s or King 2.5s would be cool, but I think the 2.0s will be good enough bang for buck, and an advantage of using an off-the-shelf version is availability if I ever need a replacement.

 

[Wobly]

I’m going for it and going to try the off-the-shelf Fox 2.0’s
No issues or major complaints with the stock bilsteins (they only have 25k miles on them), but sounds like this will be a worthwhile improvement in ride quality for my use case.

Custom tuned Fox 2.5s or King 2.5s would be cool, but I think the 2.0s will be good enough bang for buck, and an advantage of using an off-the-shelf version is availability if I ever need a replacement.

Are you in Colorado? What part? I have a set of the Thuren tuned 0'-1.5" rear Fox 2.0 sitting in my garage that I would part with at a very reasonable cost.

I started out wanting to control some of the nasty concrete seams on these "wonderful" Colorado roads. I talked to Thuren and they gave me some good suggestions. I bought the rear trackbar, the .5" front Thuren springs, and the Fox 2.0's. They suggested leaving the factory rear springs in since I usually carry at least 500 lbs in the bed of the truck, have sliders installed, etc. I got it all installed and it did make a difference. The truck felt more controlled driving on the street. But, the rear was still beating me up. After driving like that for a month, I called CJC Offroad and talked to them about the 2" multi-rate rear springs (CS-DMRC-14-R2). After discussing it, I decided to bite the bullet and order the new springs and, of course, new Thuren tuned rear Fox 2.0 shocks since they needed to be longer. I'm glad I did. The on road ride is greatly improved and washboard roads are fun! I have gone on some pretty nasty trails around here and love the setup I have now. The terrible concrete seams still suck, but now it is annoying vs. me peeing blood after driving on them.

 

[Wobly]

It would be helpful to have compressed and extended length of the factory PW shocks. Does anyone have a set floating around in the garage they would be willing to measure?

Yes, I have all four Bilstein's in my garage.

 

[Trail_Wagon]

I’m going for it and going to try the off-the-shelf Fox 2.0’s
No issues or major complaints with the stock bilsteins (they only have 25k miles on them), but sounds like this will be a worthwhile improvement in ride quality for my use case.

Custom tuned Fox 2.5s or King 2.5s would be cool, but I think the 2.0s will be good enough bang for buck, and an advantage of using an off-the-shelf version is availability if I ever need a replacement.

Thanks for being the guinea pig. Looking forward to your impressions of the fox and I believe you did the sumo springs too.

I thought a lot about how I want to set up my truck. It's got a few jobs to perform, and although it would be cool to set it up to bomb through the whoops at highway speed, what I really need is a comfortable street ride, sometimes tow a Jeep, or carry a slide in camper or traverse miles of washboard to go rock hounding. I think airbags are a must for the slide in camper. Some sort of bottom out protection like boogie bumps or sumo springs and a shock that can tame the chatter of small rocks and rough forest service roads.

 

[el_barto]

Are you in Colorado? What part? I have a set of the Thuren tuned 0'-1.5" rear Fox 2.0 sitting in my garage that I would part with at a very reasonable cost.

I started out wanting to control some of the nasty concrete seams on these "wonderful" Colorado roads. I talked to Thuren and they gave me some good suggestions. I bought the rear trackbar, the .5" front Thuren springs, and the Fox 2.0's. They suggested leaving the factory rear springs in since I usually carry at least 500 lbs in the bed of the truck, have sliders installed, etc. I got it all installed and it did make a difference. The truck felt more controlled driving on the street. But, the rear was still beating me up. After driving like that for a month, I called CJC Offroad and talked to them about the 2" multi-rate rear springs (CS-DMRC-14-R2). After discussing it, I decided to bite the bullet and order the new springs and, of course, new Thuren tuned rear Fox 2.0 shocks since they needed to be longer. I'm glad I did. The on road ride is greatly improved and washboard roads are fun! I have gone on some pretty nasty trails around here and love the setup I have now. The terrible concrete seams still suck, but now it is annoying vs. me peeing blood after driving on them.

Dang…yeah I’m in Denver, but I just placed an order for a set of off the shelf Fox 2.0s during lunch today!
Yeah There’s a few brutal sections of concrete in the metro area, but I-25 S between Lone Tree and Castle Rock has to be the worst.

 

[Trail_Wagon]

You drive a 7500lb truck. It will not handle like a car.

I have the Pintop kit and off road on more difficult terrain and more frequently than most people. Honestly, it’s probably not worth the Pintop kit on a power wagon. I would recommend one of the Carli fox setups and looking back I could have saved some money by doing that and I bet been perfectly happy

If you don’t mind spending the coin then I would wait for the new Carli live valve shocks that should drop next year. They should be the best of both worlds. I will probably upgrade to them and sell my Pintop shocks.

I just started following you on Instagram and realized you are nearby over in Prescott. I live in Sedona. Nice truck. Safe to say I know exactly what terrain you drive on.

You said the pintop wasn't worth the money and you would probably just go with the less expensive Fox option. What are the shortcomings of the pintop kit? what don't you like? How do the shocks handle washboard? What about Schnebly Hill road?

 

[AnthonyD1978]

I gotcha. I looked at that when I went Dominator. You do lose a small amount of front travel (.75") with the Dominator vs Pintop. My conclusion was it wouldn't affect my usage. I am still gonna get where I need to go. I am just gonna get there faster and with a better ride. Everybody had different wants/needs though.

Yeah, it's usually a give-a-take with anything like this. Everyone just needs to be honest with themselves on what they will use the truck for. The big thing for me going with the 2.5 Kings over the 2.0 Fox shocks extra ability to drive at speed over long distances on rough terrain. The Dominator does that even better, but I don't think I'd ever see that terrain for the time and speed needed to take advantage of that kit.

Things to consider:
*Lift height (center of gravity)
*Terrain
*How long you will be on that terrain
*Sustained speeds on that terrain (overheating shock fluid)
*Payload (I'm pretty sure I'm over max payload 24/7)
*Towing
*Truck height clearance
*Suspension travel
*Cost
*etc