Lifter Failure? Report it here!

[H3LZSN1P3R]

I recently noticed a random tick at idle but it increases with RPM, I suspect it could be a lifter. The sound gets louder with RPM, it’s very noticeable from 1400-1500rpm but at idle it ticks worse when the AC is on which is odd to me and it’s not the compressor clutch. It’s a 22 with 38k miles, so I tried taking it to the dealer and had no luck, apparently they couldn’t hear it. Now I’m trying to take it to a different dealer but they are 8 weeks out. My question is should I still be running the truck or am I going to make things worse. Also, I can post a link with a video of the sound.

Drive it! Its pretty sad how these “techs” can even hear a bad sounding engine…

 

[kfscoll]

Under load under certain conditions I've always been able to hear a very slight rattle from inside the cab, but it honestly sounded like something deep in the dash was resonating at a certain speed/RPM/load. If the radio was on you'd never notice it.

Anyway, this evening I had the door open/window down, happened to rev my truck's engine in my driveway, and noticed the ticking. I never (and still don't) notice any noise at idle but by the time the truck is at 1750 RPM it sounds like someone is shaking a metal coffee can full of gravel. It's easily noticeable from outside the truck, but still really inaudible from inside.

I've had all my maintenance done at the dealer, oil changes at the computer-recommended intervals, services per the maintenance guide, no regeneration issues (or issues at all, really), the truck's not making oil, and I haven't done a whole heck of a lot of towing. I have 35K miles on the truck right now and managed to get a dealer appointment for tomorrow so I can get the issue on paper before my warranty is up (although it sounds like this will likely be under the powertrain warranty anyway).

I'll get a recording posted tomorrow, but believe me, the ticking is pretty audible. My wife heard it instantly when I revved the motor to 1750 RPM and then noticed it at lower RPMs also. Is the dealer really going to tell me to pound sand over this?

 

[kfscoll]

I recently noticed a random tick at idle but it increases with RPM, I suspect it could be a lifter. The sound gets louder with RPM, it’s very noticeable from 1400-1500rpm but at idle it ticks worse when the AC is on which is odd to me and it’s not the compressor clutch. It’s a 22 with 38k miles, so I tried taking it to the dealer and had no luck, apparently they couldn’t hear it. Now I’m trying to take it to a different dealer but they are 8 weeks out. My question is should I still be running the truck or am I going to make things worse. Also, I can post a link with a video of the sound.

Your issue "sounds" exactly like mine. Same year, just about the same miles too. I'll get audio/video posted tomorrow.

 

[301cummins]

The dealers around my way are a joke. They used every lame excuse in the book, as if I’ve never worked on a Cummins before. If you keep your expectations low you won’t be disappointed. Only thing I’ve noticed is that the noise does get better as the oil ages. Why I’m not sure maybe because it’s thicker and provides more damping. I believe ram is the only diesel that doesn’t use plastic guides for the lifters. Hopefully someone who knows dmax and Powerstroke can advise better. What we’re probably hearing is the lifter slapping around in its groove. Metal on metal. All it has is the little detect pin to guide the lifter, and I’m sure there is some play. Just an observation may not be true.

 

[mbarber84]

The dealers around my way are a joke. They used every lame excuse in the book, as if I’ve never worked on a Cummins before. If you keep your expectations low you won’t be disappointed. Only thing I’ve noticed is that the noise does get better as the oil ages. Why I’m not sure maybe because it’s thicker and provides more damping. I believe ram is the only diesel that doesn’t use plastic guides for the lifters. Hopefully someone who knows dmax and Powerstroke can advise better. What we’re probably hearing is the lifter slapping around in its groove. Metal on metal. All it has is the little detect pin to guide the lifter, and I’m sure there is some play. Just an observation may not be true.

There indeed can be play in the lifter bores. Variation in machining and tolerances in the keyway that keeps the lifter aligned. The bad part is, due to the manner in which the lifter roller and the cam lobe come into contact with one another, there is little to no tolerance for “pivoting” of the lifter. If this happens you’ll end up with premature wear on one or both surfaces. This is nearly the same concept as the CP4 failures albeit not as extreme

 

[kfscoll]

I took the truck to the dealer this afternoon but couldn't even get a service writer to walk out to take a quick listen. Regardless, I'm supposed to have a diagnosis by mid-day tomorrow, so we'll see. Since I wasn't expecting to leave the truck at the dealer (it was a quicker visit than I expected) I haven't had a chance to record a video yet. Suffice it to say if they can't hear what my wife and I heard a couple days ago they need their ears cleaned.

 

[Units]

Under load under certain conditions I've always been able to hear a very slight rattle from inside the cab, but it honestly sounded like something deep in the dash was resonating at a certain speed/RPM/load. If the radio was on you'd never notice it.

Anyway, this evening I had the door open/window down, happened to rev my truck's engine in my driveway, and noticed the ticking. I never (and still don't) notice any noise at idle but by the time the truck is at 1750 RPM it sounds like someone is shaking a metal coffee can full of gravel. It's easily noticeable from outside the truck, but still really inaudible from inside.

I've had all my maintenance done at the dealer, oil changes at the computer-recommended intervals, services per the maintenance guide, no regeneration issues (or issues at all, really), the truck's not making oil, and I haven't done a whole heck of a lot of towing. I have 35K miles on the truck right now and managed to get a dealer appointment for tomorrow so I can get the issue on paper before my warranty is up (although it sounds like this will likely be under the powertrain warranty anyway).

I'll get a recording posted tomorrow, but believe me, the ticking is pretty audible. My wife heard it instantly when I revved the motor to 1750 RPM and then noticed it at lower RPMs also. Is the dealer really going to tell me to pound sand over this?

I’ve heard a slight “tick” around the same rpm. Noticed it one day when I stuck my truck in high idle and got out. I just chalked it up to injectors or def injector that you could hear since the truck was in high idle. Let us know what you find out.

 

[kfscoll]

I’ve heard a slight “tick” around the same rpm. Noticed it one day when I stuck my truck in high idle and got out. I just chalked it up to injectors or def injector that you could hear since the truck was in high idle. Let us know what you find out.

It strikes me as odd that I don't hear a thing at idle and it takes revving the engine to get the noise to really rear its head. Anyway, the truck's still sitting at the dealer and hasn't been looked at yet. Hopefully (probably?) tomorrow before noon?

 

[CTF2019]

There indeed can be play in the lifter bores. Variation in machining and tolerances in the keyway that keeps the lifter aligned. The bad part is, due to the manner in which the lifter roller and the cam lobe come into contact with one another, there is little to no tolerance for “pivoting” of the lifter. If this happens you’ll end up with premature wear on one or both surfaces. This is nearly the same concept as the CP4 failures albeit not as extreme

Yes.

I made a video of the rotation and I think I posted that in my thread on CF. The OE lifters can rotate about 5* back and forth, and the rollers have a sharp edge, so it can dig in to the lobe. When I looked at my factory cam, the wear pattern gave me the idea the lifter would wobble at the top of the ramp. Also, occasionally I’d see light scratch marks where the sharp corner of the roller would do in on ramp up. This was with a 30k mile setup.

With the solid OE roller lifters, I saw worse wear in 10k miles as the lifter is not preloaded onto the cam, thus it has more opportunities to rotate. I never tested Jesels because of cost, and while the keyway and roller looks better, there’s a real question if the keyway in the block is even machined correctly or not.

OE is not designed as a tight tolerance fit, so there a possibility the machining tolerances of the keyway in block is not high. So if you put a tight fitting roller there, it might not be perfectly straight with the cam.


All in all, this is a poor design from Cummins all in the name of NVH. From what I’ve seen online of their other engines, it seems Cummins cannot make a reliable roller lifter/rocker design worth a damn.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Yes.

I made a video of the rotation and I think I posted that in my thread on CF. The OE lifters can rotate about 5* back and forth, and the rollers have a sharp edge, so it can dig in to the lobe. When I looked at my factory cam, the wear pattern gave me the idea the lifter would wobble at the top of the ramp. Also, occasionally I’d see light scratch marks where the sharp corner of the roller would do in on ramp up. This was with a 30k mile setup.

With the solid OE roller lifters, I saw worse wear in 10k miles as the lifter is not preloaded onto the cam, thus it has more opportunities to rotate. I never tested Jesels because of cost, and while the keyway and roller looks better, there’s a real question if the keyway in the block is even machined correctly or not.

OE is not designed as a tight tolerance fit, so there a possibility the machining tolerances of the keyway in block is not high. So if you put a tight fitting roller there, it might not be perfectly straight with the cam.


All in all, this is a poor design from Cummins all in the name of NVH. From what I’ve seen online of their other engines, it seems Cummins cannot make a reliable roller lifter/rocker design worth a damn.

Piss poor design as far as i am concerned Ram should have never bowed down to the people wanting quieter no service valve train they should have stuck with the quality design they had for almost 3 decades.

 

[mbarber84]

Piss poor design as far as i am concerned Ram should have never bowed down to the people wanting quieter no service valve train they should have stuck with the quality design they had for almost 3 decades.

I read (somewhere) that their quest to reduce NVH in these trucks was not solely driven by customer feedback, but also by EPA mandates or guidelines over noise pollution. Not sure as to the validity of this, and I’m struggling to find that article. If I can find it, I’ll post the link to follow up.
Either way, it was a piss poor decision to go with a hydraulic roller valvetrain in these trucks. It added nothing but more complexity to an engine whose hallmark was simplicity. That simplicity lent itself to solid reliability. We have neither simplicity nor reliability in this current generation of trucks. These aren’t, and won’t, be the million mile vehicles their ancestors were.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

I read (somewhere) that their quest to reduce NVH in these trucks was not solely driven by customer feedback, but also by EPA mandates or guidelines over noise pollution. Not sure as to the validity of this, and I’m struggling to find that article. If I can find it, I’ll post the link to follow up.
Either way, it was a piss poor decision to go with a hydraulic roller valvetrain in these trucks. It added nothing but more complexity to an engine whose hallmark was simplicity. That simplicity lent itself to solid reliability. We have neither simplicity nor reliability in this current generation of trucks. These aren’t, and won’t, be the million mile vehicles their ancestors were.

Noise pollution what a F**king joke the EPA is a disaster and they should be shut down

 

[CTF2019]

I read (somewhere) that their quest to reduce NVH in these trucks was not solely driven by customer feedback, but also by EPA mandates or guidelines over noise pollution. Not sure as to the validity of this, and I’m struggling to find that article. If I can find it, I’ll post the link to follow up.
Either way, it was a piss poor decision to go with a hydraulic roller valvetrain in these trucks. It added nothing but more complexity to an engine whose hallmark was simplicity. That simplicity lent itself to solid reliability. We have neither simplicity nor reliability in this current generation of trucks. These aren’t, and won’t, be the million mile vehicles their ancestors were.

I doubt it. It's not that much louder with flat tappets and no scissor gear.

C&Cs don’t have the scissor either… probably for a reason.


I think it was to compete with Ford and Chevy. Both are quieter, and it falls in line with how they’ve been competing on interiors and the numbers game.

 

[kfscoll]

I have an appointment on 9/11 to take my truck back to a different dealer for the dreaded erratic typewriter noise that's been widely described here. In my truck's case, I can hear typing clear as day when I put the truck in Park and rev the engine to 1500+ RPM. However, today I noticed that if the truck is in gear and there's any load on the motor, I don't hear any typing at all. I power-braked the truck in my driveway (only up to ~1500 RPM) and my wife confirmed the same - no typewriter noise when the engine is loaded. I even tried driving slowly past a few large warehouse buildings at ~1500 RPM and didn't hear any ticking/typing.

So, I'm wondering, am I chasing a red herring here? I know very little about these motors, but it seems to me that a noise that only occurs when revving the motor in park isn't a big deal. That said, if there's a potential issue, I want to pressure the dealership appropriately.

 

[kfscoll]

I have an appointment on 9/11 to take my truck back to a different dealer for the dreaded erratic typewriter noise that's been widely described here. In my truck's case, I can hear typing clear as day when I put the truck in Park and rev the engine to 1500+ RPM. However, today I noticed that if the truck is in gear and there's any load on the motor, I don't hear any typing at all. I power-braked the truck in my driveway (only up to ~1500 RPM) and my wife confirmed the same - no typewriter noise when the engine is loaded. I even tried driving slowly past a few large warehouse buildings at ~1500 RPM and didn't hear any ticking/typing.

So, I'm wondering, am I chasing a red herring here? I know very little about these motors, but it seems to me that a noise that only occurs when revving the motor in park isn't a big deal. That said, if there's a potential issue, I want to pressure the dealership appropriately.

I took my truck to the dealer this morning and the service writer immediately heard my truck typing at 1500+ RPM while unloaded. I also demonstrated how the truck doesn't type when the engine is loaded. Their tech also looked at the truck this afternoon and heard the noise as well; according to him the typing noise is the lifters and it's because of their new design. However, evidently the noise Is normal if it occurs while the truck's engine is unloaded and operated at/above 1500 RPM; he claimed this is per a memo/bulletin from Chrysler. I asked for a copy of this alleged memo/bulletin and the service writer said the diagnosis and related info is all in my paperwork. We'll see. I haven't picked up the truck yet but if there's anything useful in the paperwork they give me (like a STAR case reference or something) I'll be sure to post it here.

 

[Units]

I took my truck to the dealer this morning and the service writer immediately heard my truck typing at 1500+ RPM while unloaded. I also demonstrated how the truck doesn't type when the engine is loaded. Their tech also looked at the truck this afternoon and heard the noise as well; according to him the typing noise is the lifters and it's because of their new design. However, evidently the noise Is normal if it occurs while the truck's engine is unloaded and operated at/above 1500 RPM; he claimed this is per a memo/bulletin from Chrysler. I asked for a copy of this alleged memo/bulletin and the service writer said the diagnosis and related info is all in my paperwork. We'll see. I haven't picked up the truck yet but if there's anything useful in the paperwork they give me (like a STAR case reference or something) I'll be sure to post it here.

Interesting, my truck goes back tomorrow for a transmission clunk that supposedly a quick relearn would fix it but of course it did not. I also mentioned the tick I hear in the 1500rpm range and they are going to look into it. I’ll see if they give me the same story.

 

[kfscoll]

Interesting (and typical) postscript - I went to pick the truck up this evening and immediately noticed that they scuffed the top of my interior door trim in four places and also scratched through my window tint. This means that the truck will now have to go back to the dealer for the sixth time for an issue that started by them opening my door into a wall or concrete post or something and scraping a 4" x 1/8" strip of paint off of my door handle. In fact, one of those six times was to replace window tint that they scratched through. I get it, these guys are in a hurry, etc. etc. But six times? C'mon. Just respect my stuff.

I should also mention that the tech who dicked up my window tint and door trim this time is the same tech who gave the thumbs-up to my engine, so take that FWIW. Also, there was no reference to any memoranda or bulletins from Chrysler on the paperwork that the dealership provided me. The only thing I got was the standard paperwork that included a note from the tech explaining that the ticking he (and the service advisor) heard was normal when that motor is revved between ~1000 and ~2500 RPM with no load on it.

OTOH, the truck is running great and is getting fantastic mileage. I think I'll stop trying to find issues - at least for a little while - and see how things go.

 

[ccmartin2]

My 2022 Ram 2500 w. 45k has developed an audible tick at idle months back. The same tick that my Chevy 1500 developed before it's hydraulic lifters failed and grenaded the engine.

It was at the dealership two months ago for this and the service tech advised he was told to remove and clean the lifters, not replace them. I advised that a ticking sound means that there is metal to metal contact. Service advisor and tech said that they wanted to replace the lifters but couldn't at this time. I just spoke to the service manager explaining they had my truck for 17 days and didn't properly fix the issue. His response- "Well service techs get paid to fix things, not to not fix things. So I will have to rely on their judgement that it's fixed".

At this point........what is one to do?

 

[Units]

My 2022 Ram 2500 w. 45k has developed an audible tick at idle months back. The same tick that my Chevy 1500 developed before it's hydraulic lifters failed and grenaded the engine.

It was at the dealership two months ago for this and the service tech advised he was told to remove and clean the lifters, not replace them. I advised that a ticking sound means that there is metal to metal contact. Service advisor and tech said that they wanted to replace the lifters but couldn't at this time. I just spoke to the service manager explaining they had my truck for 17 days and didn't properly fix the issue. His response- "Well service techs get paid to fix things, not to not fix things. So I will have to rely on their judgement that it's fixed".

At this point........what is one to do?

You should have a powertrain warranty, drive it till it breaks, just make sure you keep up with maintenance and receipts. That sure is a lot of work to “clean” lifters, that’s goofy. I’ve never heard of such a thing.

 

[gpattikjr]

Seems like we're all getting the same run around. Run to failure. Mines not bad, it comes and goes.