Lifter Failure? Report it here!

[elephantrider]

I'd surmise it's due to various production tooling availability differences between suppliers. maybe the rings were a tooling hold that another supplier didn't require. pontificatiin of course, based in 30yrs in supply chain and procurement.

it's certainly an interesting topic.

 

[IndyRamMega]

I'd slightly disagree... And agree.
The staying straight in the bore is an issue some have seen, another separate issue is not staying pumped up to close lash at idle oil pressure. My opinion is based on the design changes to the lifters that have been noted. I will concede that these changes could simply be supplier based changes but I don't think that holds much water because to my knowledge these lifters specifically are not used in any other applications. So my assumption is that they are changing designs to try and address premature failures... That said one feature that has not changed is the bore key..yet atleast. What has changed is the oiling channels around the body of that key, which have actually been removed from the original design that did have them. As to specifically why, what, or how this change has been motivated, it's conjecture at this point due to a pure lack of inside info. FWIW I chose to replace mine with all "smooth bore" no oiling channel around the bore key. Thankfully my dealer was willing to work with me once I showed/explained the situation. My tick is gone but will it stay gone.... No way to know currently.

The jesel solid rollers I put in are smooth as well....and I'm aware of the collapsing which is why I said the rotating is only 1 of the issues...

 

[IndyRamMega]

Agreed.
The “smooth” lifters are, AFAIK, the latest revision of the design. As far as application, I too am of the understanding that these lifters are proprietary to this series of FCA-bound engines and are not used anywhere else. What I find very shocking is that it has been demonstrated that the roller itself can be seized by even the slightest amount of hand pressure applied from a side-loading angle. While that should never be the case, it’s pretty clear that some of these rollers are rotating axial within their bores. The machined notch in the block looks large enough, compared to the key in the lifter body, that some side to side rotation would be possible. Mix that with a lifter that is not properly pressurizing (oil passages are comparatively small versus other designs) and you have a problem.

Its also worth noting that some of the early lifter failures could be attributable to two factors:

1. Was the misapplication of 15w40 engine oil
2. Was a poorly programmed warm up strategy that was hard on the rotating assemblies and the valve train.

Both were rectified by mid / late 2020.

Have you played with any of the lifters? There's also the issue of the bushing in the factory lifter vs a bearing....the bushing axle gets shoved to one side and siezes the roller....the keyway is absolutely an issue with the factory lifter....the jessel lifter has a round keyway to fully sit in the opening....the side to side movement of the factory lifter isn't "possible"....it's happening....

 

[Ostracize]

The jesel solid rollers I put in are smooth as well....and I'm aware of the collapsing which is why I said the rotating is only 1 of the issues...

My fault I misread your post.

How are the jesels holding up? How many miles since you swapped? Anything of note that you've seen/felt/heard with your setup?

 

[mbarber84]

Have you played with any of the lifters? There's also the issue of the bushing in the factory lifter vs a bearing....the bushing axle gets shoved to one side and siezes the roller....the keyway is absolutely an issue with the factory lifter....the jessel lifter has a round keyway to fully sit in the opening....the side to side movement of the factory lifter isn't "possible"....it's happening....

Yeah it doesn’t take much side loading pressure to make the roller stop. Thats why I’ve continued to say this design is flawed. Between the axial play in the lifter and the roller seizing from very little side loaded force, you have a recipe for disaster.

 

[IndyRamMega]

My fault I misread your post.

How are the jesels holding up? How many miles since you swapped? Anything of note that you've seen/felt/heard with your setup?

No worries...about 10k since my conversion....they are still quiet....this summer I'm gonna have my cam bore scoped to if there are any marks like on my stock cam....which btw only had 30k miles on it....

 

[IndyRamMega]

Yeah it doesn’t take much side loading pressure to make the roller stop. Thats why I’ve continued to say this design is flawed. Between the axial play in the lifter and the roller seizing from very little side loaded force, you have a recipe for disaster.

The jesels have a bearing instead of a bushing for the roller like all the rest of the roller lifters I've seen...I agree this design is a major flaw....who the eff designs a subpar keyway like this?

 

[Trash Panda]

The jesels have a bearing instead of a bushing for the roller like all the rest of the roller lifters I've seen...I agree this design is a major flaw....who the eff designs a subpar keyway like this?

Makes me really want to do the Jessel conversion, but I am in no mood to pull a motor or buy an expensive lifter tool.

What a mess.

 

[CTF2019]

100,000% recommend Hamilton flat tappet over any sort of roller. The block key ways are not even machined perfectly true, so a tight fitting Jesel can prove problematic for some folks.

I have a long thread on the cumminsforum going through these issues. Been in my engine twice and don’t want to do it again. I have finally removed the scissor on the cam gear and gone Hamiltons flat tappets. Smooth running and no more 2k rpm clatter like all the 2019+ do from factory. I just have a little more click clack and cam gear knock like 2018 and older which is no problem!

@mbarber84 Nice to see you as staff here and thank you for tracking this issue. I am super interested to see just how widespread this is becoming.

EDIT: And submitted mine.

I also stickied your thread on cumminsforum so folk there can add.

 

[mbarber84]

100,000% recommend Hamilton flat tappet over any sort of roller. The block key ways are not even machined perfectly true, so a tight fitting Jesel can prove problematic for some folks.

I have a long thread on the cumminsforum going through these issues. Been in my engine twice and don’t want to do it again. I have finally removed the scissor on the cam gear and gone Hamiltons flat tappets. Smooth running and no more 2k rpm clatter like all the 2019+ do from factory. I just have a little more click clack and cam gear knock like 2018 and older which is no problem!

@mbarber84 Nice to see you as staff here and thank you for tracking this issue. I am super interested to see just how widespread this is becoming.

EDIT: And submitted mine.

I also stickied your thread on cumminsforum so folk there can add.

Thanks! I’m looking forward to gathering the data and seeing what it shows. Right now I have six trucks (not many) but I know there are far more than that. It’s just a matter of getting the word out and redirecting those involved to fill out the form.

 

[Ostracize]

Welp... The light tick at idle when warm is back (not Def injection). This is how mine started before it got more pronounced/consistent with more time. Dealer is tracking and I have an appointment to have them verify next week. We'll see how it goes from here...

 

[IndyRamMega]

100,000% recommend Hamilton flat tappet over any sort of roller. The block key ways are not even machined perfectly true, so a tight fitting Jesel can prove problematic for some folks.

I have a long thread on the cumminsforum going through these issues. Been in my engine twice and don’t want to do it again. I have finally removed the scissor on the cam gear and gone Hamiltons flat tappets. Smooth running and no more 2k rpm clatter like all the 2019+ do from factory. I just have a little more click clack and cam gear knock like 2018 and older which is no problem!

@mbarber84 Nice to see you as staff here and thank you for tracking this issue. I am super interested to see just how widespread this is becoming.

EDIT: And submitted mine.

I also stickied your thread on cumminsforum so folk there can add.

As long as you're mentioning issues....you should probably mention the issue of the casting that might need to be ground down if you go with the Hamilton conversion....you didn't choose the jesel lifters and instead went with another round of stock lifters when you did your wagler kit...I understand you might have an axe to grind with wagler and that's why you emphatically recommend Hamilton now but you don't really have any proof the jesel conversion is no good.....

 

[KiowaWarrior RAM]

Does anyone think lifter failure is more prevalent due to running 5W/40 vs. 10W/30 oils?

 

[mbarber84]

Does anyone think lifter failure is more prevalent due to running 5W/40 vs. 10W/30 oils?

My stance in this is: both are approved for use in the engine by both Cummins and Ram. As long as the oil you’re using meets API CK-4 and Cummins CES 20081, you’re changing the oil at a reasonable interval given your trucks duty cycles, and you’re using the appropriate viscosity for your climate, the oil should not be a part of the problem.

 

[Cseybert]

How about severe idle hours most of the ones I’ve heard about have a lot of idle hours maybe not enough oil getting to the top of the motor?

 

[mbarber84]

How about severe idle hours most of the ones I’ve heard about have a lot of idle hours maybe not enough oil getting to the top of the motor?

Excessive idle hours may play a part too. But I’ve seen several failures documented that were given excellent care and operation and still failed far too prematurely.

 

[Ostracize]

Excessive idle hours may play a part too. But I’ve seen several failures documented that were given excellent care and operation and still failed far too prematurely.

... Mine for example.. Never excessive idled, never pushed hard prior to warmed, fluids religiously, 5-40 valvo only oem filters...etc.
Cam and lifters replaced, tick returned after ~250mi. Now starting process of new engine. Tech believes casting is allowing excessive lifter rotation causing inconsistent roller to cam engagement.

 

[mbarber84]

... Mine for example.. Never excessive idled, never pushed hard prior to warmed, fluids religiously, 5-40 valvo only oem filters...etc.
Cam and lifters replaced, tick returned after ~250mi. Now starting process of new engine. Tech believes casting is allowing excessive lifter rotation causing inconsistent roller to cam engagement.

The casting notches are the main issue I think. Too much variation allowing for axial rotation. Then the roller meets the cam lobe at angles, causing impact wear and lifters popping up when they shouldn’t be.

 

[CTF2019]

As long as you're mentioning issues....you should probably mention the issue of the casting that might need to be ground down if you go with the Hamilton conversion....you didn't choose the jesel lifters and instead went with another round of stock lifters when you did your wagler kit...I understand you might have an axe to grind with wagler and that's why you emphatically recommend Hamilton now but you don't really have any proof the jesel conversion is no good.....

The block grinding thing is only an issue for very early 2019 blocks. I had no issue with my 7/19 build truck.

With the block notch variation thing being unknown, I simply cannot recommend Jewel lifters as they wouldn't ride straight. If it turns out most of the blocks are perfectly machined (highly unlikely from what I’ve seen and heard) then jesels would be a good solution. With that said, Jesels are still too expensive imo.

 

[jort2750]

Any idea how common this lifter failure really is? It's hard to tell if it just seems more common because of social media. I have a 22 with almost 30k miles and engine idle sounds the same as when I purchased it new. Truck has been good so far (knock on wood) aside from my dpf plugging up but I solved that issue for good.