ianacole
Active Member
Whew!! Thank you for sharing your experience. And the car is a '97 Boxster, so just a touch lighter than the 2500
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HD Towing
- Thread starter BLuRRnAWAY
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Whew!! Thank you for sharing your experience. And the car is a '97 Boxster, so just a touch lighter than the 2500
ianacole
Active Member
Max capacity on the trailer is 11K, but I think we'll be pushing 9K with car, generator up front, quad, tools, etc. and trailer.
Whew!! Thank you for sharing your experience. And the car is a '97 Boxster, so just a touch lighter than the 2500
Ah, you'll be way fine. Unless you've got a REALLY odd trailer config with your axles all the way at the back, a normal enclosed should pull great. The car I hauled when I weighed was a full Pro-Touring build '66 GTO. It's a fair amount bigger - and heavier - than that Boxter! Oh, and I forgot - I also had at least one generator (usually two) in the trailer as well.
Epsilon Plus
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Guess what the DOT cares about at the scales?
Not payload.
Axle ratings and tire ratings is what they'll be looking at. The 10,000lb cap on 3/4 ton GVWR is historically about registration fees. It's NOT illegal to break 10,000lb GVWR non-commercially on say, my Cummins with 2,155 payload. Why? Axles are 6,000lb front, 6,040lb rear. Tires are 3,640lb each. GVWR as far as the road cops are concerned is 12,040lb, not 10,000, as long as any axle isn't over it's rating. The axles become the lowest set point because the tires can go to 7,280lb. The 10,000lb cap? At most its a fee violation. In many places in the country you're automatically registered commercial with a vehicle over that. That's why manufactures even make 2500/F-250 rather than all just be big bad HD 3500/F-350. With my 2014 2500 HD Duramax, the only part number difference between it and the 3500 HD was a factory add-a-leaf in the rear spring pack. That's it. 2020 is the first time that I know of that a MFG. allowed one of their 3/4 products to break 10,000lb GVWR. The new GM twins standard GVWR is 11,350lb. On the "Build and Price" configurator you can check the box for 10,000lb GVWR. Think they take springs off? No. It's a different sticker for the registration fee thing.
"But what about insurance!"
They still have to cover you even if you're negligent just like a DUI.
Send it.
Not payload.
Axle ratings and tire ratings is what they'll be looking at. The 10,000lb cap on 3/4 ton GVWR is historically about registration fees. It's NOT illegal to break 10,000lb GVWR non-commercially on say, my Cummins with 2,155 payload. Why? Axles are 6,000lb front, 6,040lb rear. Tires are 3,640lb each. GVWR as far as the road cops are concerned is 12,040lb, not 10,000, as long as any axle isn't over it's rating. The axles become the lowest set point because the tires can go to 7,280lb. The 10,000lb cap? At most its a fee violation. In many places in the country you're automatically registered commercial with a vehicle over that. That's why manufactures even make 2500/F-250 rather than all just be big bad HD 3500/F-350. With my 2014 2500 HD Duramax, the only part number difference between it and the 3500 HD was a factory add-a-leaf in the rear spring pack. That's it. 2020 is the first time that I know of that a MFG. allowed one of their 3/4 products to break 10,000lb GVWR. The new GM twins standard GVWR is 11,350lb. On the "Build and Price" configurator you can check the box for 10,000lb GVWR. Think they take springs off? No. It's a different sticker for the registration fee thing.
"But what about insurance!"
They still have to cover you even if you're negligent just like a DUI.
Send it.
So. 10000 is an artificial limit. I hear this all the time. For registration some say. For emmissions others say.
Ok. 2nd and 3rd Gen 2500 was 8800lbs. 4th Gen started out 8800 but then got a much better frame and hitching system went to 10k for diesel but the 5.7 l Hemi only ever made it to 9000k
And in the 2nd Gen they offered a 7500lb 2500 also. Mainly due to the brakes.
Just as the 2019 DT 1500. 7100 GVWR with 3900 and 4100 axles. So 8000 total. But if it is a registration thing. They screwed us in PA as the 7100 puts that to class 3 and ups the registration cost greatly. So why nit give us the other 800.
So. My thought is the extra axle weight is for inertia...you know...shifting of weight. The extra axle capacity over Gross is for this. Going around a sharp turn. Coming to a quick stop. Pullling out in a hurry.
Many things affect the rating other than axles. The 1500 for example....it got bigger brakes. Which allowed for more GVWR and GCWR
Just like rhe 5.7l Hemi capped at 9k....it was the motors ability to move and stop the load that did that. It has since been dropped from the lineup.
Look at a 3500 6.4l hemi. It can hit the GVWR numbers...but gets no more GCWR over a 2500.
Just some other things to think about. My family drives on these roads. I like to hope people take things seriously.
I agree that the trucks can haul and tow over their capacities...i do not disagree. But if the owner doesnt realize he also greatly hindered his braking steering and evasive maneuver abilities...then disaster will happen.
No one is wrong in this fight. Just need to understand when you exceed the ratings...there is a chamge in the dynamics of the truck.
Load up hook up and haul ass. Just use your brain and pay attention to how much you decided to exceed the capacities and plan accordingly
Ok. 2nd and 3rd Gen 2500 was 8800lbs. 4th Gen started out 8800 but then got a much better frame and hitching system went to 10k for diesel but the 5.7 l Hemi only ever made it to 9000k
And in the 2nd Gen they offered a 7500lb 2500 also. Mainly due to the brakes.
Just as the 2019 DT 1500. 7100 GVWR with 3900 and 4100 axles. So 8000 total. But if it is a registration thing. They screwed us in PA as the 7100 puts that to class 3 and ups the registration cost greatly. So why nit give us the other 800.
So. My thought is the extra axle weight is for inertia...you know...shifting of weight. The extra axle capacity over Gross is for this. Going around a sharp turn. Coming to a quick stop. Pullling out in a hurry.
Many things affect the rating other than axles. The 1500 for example....it got bigger brakes. Which allowed for more GVWR and GCWR
Just like rhe 5.7l Hemi capped at 9k....it was the motors ability to move and stop the load that did that. It has since been dropped from the lineup.
Look at a 3500 6.4l hemi. It can hit the GVWR numbers...but gets no more GCWR over a 2500.
Just some other things to think about. My family drives on these roads. I like to hope people take things seriously.
I agree that the trucks can haul and tow over their capacities...i do not disagree. But if the owner doesnt realize he also greatly hindered his braking steering and evasive maneuver abilities...then disaster will happen.
No one is wrong in this fight. Just need to understand when you exceed the ratings...there is a chamge in the dynamics of the truck.
Load up hook up and haul ass. Just use your brain and pay attention to how much you decided to exceed the capacities and plan accordingly
Epsilon Plus
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Frame different on 3500 standard output Cummins? How about the rear axle (not suspension, the axle, ring gear, shafts...etc)? Front? How bout the brakes?
All that's different is the springs, dude. In the RAM world there is a coil 5-link vs leaf suspension component to that because they are attacking the market with a smooth rider, but F-250/2500 HD? Leaf changes.
All that inertia talk and whether the engine can handle it stuff doesn't apply here. It's literally just springs (unless you're talking HO which gets a bigger ring gear...etc).
All that's different is the springs, dude. In the RAM world there is a coil 5-link vs leaf suspension component to that because they are attacking the market with a smooth rider, but F-250/2500 HD? Leaf changes.
All that inertia talk and whether the engine can handle it stuff doesn't apply here. It's literally just springs (unless you're talking HO which gets a bigger ring gear...etc).
Just for the record - my '04 (3rd gen) had a GVWR of 9000. Still does to this day.
I'm not endorsing pulling illegal. It's a HUGE difference between the 1500 vs 2500 argument. That one holds no water, as the 1500 is really just a big car, with pretty thin and small brakes, etc.
The 2500 is a 3500 with different springs. I definitely pay attention to my weights as evidenced by the fact that I actually weigh. Now, if you're pulling a monster 5th wheel, it's not really a 2500 vs 3500 thing IMHO. It's a SRW vs DRW thing. Even with E Load rated tires, there's a ton of stress on those sidewalls with super heavy loads - as well as a lower amount of stability. That was really what my thought process was. If I thought I was ever going to get one of those mammoths, I'd have had to swung for a dually. But I just don't want one - doesn't fit my lifestyle.
I'm not endorsing pulling illegal. It's a HUGE difference between the 1500 vs 2500 argument. That one holds no water, as the 1500 is really just a big car, with pretty thin and small brakes, etc.
The 2500 is a 3500 with different springs. I definitely pay attention to my weights as evidenced by the fact that I actually weigh. Now, if you're pulling a monster 5th wheel, it's not really a 2500 vs 3500 thing IMHO. It's a SRW vs DRW thing. Even with E Load rated tires, there's a ton of stress on those sidewalls with super heavy loads - as well as a lower amount of stability. That was really what my thought process was. If I thought I was ever going to get one of those mammoths, I'd have had to swung for a dually. But I just don't want one - doesn't fit my lifestyle.
This is a common practice in PA - LOL! This state seems to screw you every time you turn around. The 1500 is a class 3. The 2500 is a class 4A. So, we pay an extra $50/yr for an extra 1000lbs. Oh, but if you do a two year registration and pay for two years up front you save, uh, that would be zero. I still have no idea why they even offer such an utterly stupid 2 year registration. You don't get anything back if you get rid of the vehicle. You're just giving the crooks more of your money up front. Oh, and yeah, they increased the fuel tax on Diesel and handful of years ago, so we get screwed there too - with the highest fuel taxes in the country.
Guess learning stuff in high school really was useless.
And the coil springs. Well they are not a limiting factor.
And the 1500 debate is relevant because they are the biggest abusers of it and have the most to lose. And I guess i should have been specific that my engine exaple was gas. The Cummins has plenty of headway into the next class.
And that also saying your cummins had 9000 in 04 adds to the claim as the Hemi only had 8800.
And if it is truely an artificial limit then why linit the 3500.
14000 GVWR. 6000 and 9750 axle ratings. 15750 total. There is no emmision class and registration and licensing is already over 10k. So why not own the segment and have 15750 GVWR. Is it because they want to limit it...or because there is something that limits it.
I really just want the answer. I think I know it. But apparently I am wrong. I just do not buy the artificial limit.
And a triaxle or tractor trailer can move and add axles. How they get around it sometimes.
I think right now...no one has to worry. Except if you are inexperienced with moving an over capacity load.
But in the future (I have already seen the campers on the side if the road here in PA) they are going to go after this revenue and it will be a problem.
Should have been more specific about my examples being gas engines.
So glad the 6.4l BGE has started to bridge the diesel gap...but that Cummins brings the power.
And the coil springs. Well they are not a limiting factor.
And the 1500 debate is relevant because they are the biggest abusers of it and have the most to lose. And I guess i should have been specific that my engine exaple was gas. The Cummins has plenty of headway into the next class.
And that also saying your cummins had 9000 in 04 adds to the claim as the Hemi only had 8800.
And if it is truely an artificial limit then why linit the 3500.
14000 GVWR. 6000 and 9750 axle ratings. 15750 total. There is no emmision class and registration and licensing is already over 10k. So why not own the segment and have 15750 GVWR. Is it because they want to limit it...or because there is something that limits it.
I really just want the answer. I think I know it. But apparently I am wrong. I just do not buy the artificial limit.
And a triaxle or tractor trailer can move and add axles. How they get around it sometimes.
I think right now...no one has to worry. Except if you are inexperienced with moving an over capacity load.
But in the future (I have already seen the campers on the side if the road here in PA) they are going to go after this revenue and it will be a problem.
Should have been more specific about my examples being gas engines.
So glad the 6.4l BGE has started to bridge the diesel gap...but that Cummins brings the power.
kobra
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One of the dealer principles I know told me that there is a liability issue? (cost?) that manufacturers have to deal with as they increase GVWR. I pressed for details but he wouldn't elaborate. I've always known him to be a straight shooter though, so I'd be curious as to whether anyone else has heard this?
One other note about the 2500 coils vs 3500 leafs... the coils on the 2500 are mounted inward on the axles compared to the leafs. When loaded heavier, there is more tendency to sway on the 2500s compared to the 3500s. That part I can say from experience.
B
One other note about the 2500 coils vs 3500 leafs... the coils on the 2500 are mounted inward on the axles compared to the leafs. When loaded heavier, there is more tendency to sway on the 2500s compared to the 3500s. That part I can say from experience.
B
Lucky I live in a simpleton state. In Missouri we don't have comm and non-comm, we have cars and trucks. All trucks, from a half-ton up to commercial rigs are treated the same. You buy the GCVW in 6k increments. That's it. The only time someone checks up on it is if you are pulled over. And you don't get pulled over for license weight alone unless you've got the lowest tags and are clearly cheating the system.
The unlucky part is if you buy 18k or heaver tags they only issue a front, no rear. Not a problem until you go to another state. Rather than be like everyone else, the state decided to have the DMV print the law on your registration and highlight it for you to hand to the cops when you get pulled.
The unlucky part is if you buy 18k or heaver tags they only issue a front, no rear. Not a problem until you go to another state. Rather than be like everyone else, the state decided to have the DMV print the law on your registration and highlight it for you to hand to the cops when you get pulled.
Actually, the 3500 HO does have a different axle with the 12" AAM installed than the SO or Hemi. It has the 4" axle tubes that the DRW has but is necked down at the spindles.
That wasn't the case in prior years.
I do agree on the GAWR being the limiting factor and IMHO the margins for exceeding it on dynamic load change are already built in. However, you'd have to be on the bump stops to hit that magical zone.
To those saying send it on a 2500 with air suspension - keep in mind the older 2500 trucks were leaf sprung and not subject to blowing a bag or tripping an overload in the ECM.
I too ran a supplemental air spring (Airlift 5000) on my 04.5 2500 HO for 16 years and while it handled the load fine, the 3500, albeit newer tech and overall built stronger, does SO much better.
Just like many of you, I went into this truck purchasing escapade planning to get a 2500 Diesel for towing a yet to be purchased 5th wheel. We want a medium sized 5th wheel (15k GVW or less) and I figured for sure a 2500 would do the trick. I had no idea how limiting the GVWR of the 2500's were. There are all kinds of ways to justify exceeding the 10k limit of a 2500 and many are probably true, but there was no way I could justify spending $70k or more and know that I'd be exceeding the door sticker right away. I think GM has the right idea offering different payload sticker options on their 2500's. RAM is firm on their 2500's at 10k GVWR. While I like many things about the 2500, I now have an order placed for a 3500 SRW.
BLuRRnAWAY
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Good thing you realized it before purchasing the 2500! Thanks for the story
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Seems like the 2500 Diesel's always get a bad rap, but they are great for some applications. If you want a good daily driver ride, and pull a heavy boat or enclosed car trailer they are just the ticket. I think the moral of the story is every tool has a purpose, just choose the right tool for your job. I love mine but I don't ever expect to pull a 5th wheel with it as it wouldn't be the tool for the job.
The biggest thing that would scare me off a 2500 towing a fifth wheel is the 100" dependence on air springs.
I trust them, I really do, as I ran a set of supplemental air springs for 16 years. HOWEVER, I had leaf springs to fall back in IF they ever failed. Not the case with the 2500.
ETA: I was apparently drunk or half asleep when I wrote this. Forgetting that the 2500 rides on coils/air... I still wouldn't run it over payload.
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I have to agree. If I even had the very slightest desire to EVER have a big heavy 5th wheel, I would not have gotten the 2500. As it is, I explicitly don't want anything big that would have that kind of pin weight. I thought about it a lot and made sure I was completely certain. The 2500 was the right choice for me.
H3LZSN1P3R
You're doing it wrong
I considered adding bags to my 2500 but so far i have not needed tooi have had a ton of weight in my 2500 without it squating on coils alone
H3LZSN1P3R
You're doing it wrong
They are more than capable to tow a 5th wheel, my 19 has a factory limit of 2040lbs payload “limit” i put my parents 14k 5th wheel on my truck with a pin weight of 2100lbs plus my 300lbs 5th wheel hitch and the truck still was not squatting and pulled it easy ram way under rates these trucks thats why i have a licensing company working with me to up the gvwr to 12000 which is still well within the trucks capability