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GVWR Derating/Reducing

Glad to hear that RAM settled up with you but I thought if they did you were going to get another RAM?

As to this whole 12k GVWR thing you've convinced yourself of, honestly your math just doesn't add up. You say that the reason you need less than 12k GVWR in a long box is to stay under the 26k limit without a CDL towing a 14k trailer, and that you have a number of young drivers without that license. Ok, a 2500 likely meets your needs.
But then you say that you have other trailers that are 20k and you want nothing less than an HO. So now you need a driver with a CDL, which you obviously have. So you don't need the 12k GVWR then.
I'm trying to follow, but I'm still lost.

As to your reasoning on workers without a CDL; I get that you want to hire young, eager workers. We do that a lot in my current business, and we did it a lot in our trucking and heavy equipment businesses in the past. But here's how we always did it; start them off as laborers, move them up to operate the simpler equipment, then excavators, and then put the good ones that will stick around through the more expensive training, like CDL. We did that for years with great success.

Bonus advice, worth the price you pay for it...
A business owner once asked me "what if I pay to train my workers and they leave?" I replied, "what if you don't and they stay?". If your business is struggling to make the right investments in training and certifying your people, you have a business problem, not a regulation problem.

Either way, it seems like you've made up your mind.
All the best; the new Ford F350 looks like a great truck. A buddy of mine has one -it accelerates like crazy! I just don't like buying the first year of a major change, so that 10 speed transmission would make me nervous.

B
 
kobra said:
Glad to hear that RAM settled up with you but I thought if they did you were going to get another RAM?

As to this whole 12k GVWR thing you've convinced yourself of, honestly your math just doesn't add up. You say that the reason you need less than 12k GVWR in a long box is to stay under the 26k limit without a CDL towing a 14k trailer, and that you have a number of young drivers without that license. Ok, a 2500 likely meets your needs.
But then you say that you have other trailers that are 20k and you want nothing less than an HO. So now you need a driver with a CDL, which you obviously have. So you don't need the 12k GVWR then.
I'm trying to follow, but I'm still lost.

As to your reasoning on workers without a CDL; I get that you want to hire young, eager workers. We do that a lot in my current business, and we did it a lot in our trucking and heavy equipment businesses in the past. But here's how we always did it; start them off as laborers, move them up to operate the simpler equipment, then excavators, and then put the good ones that will stick around through the more expensive training, like CDL. We did that for years with great success.

Bonus advice, worth the price you pay for it...
A business owner once asked me "what if I pay to train my workers and they leave?" I replied, "what if you don't and they stay?". If your business is struggling to make the right investments in training and certifying your people, you have a business problem, not a regulation problem.

Either way, it seems like you've made up your mind.
All the best; the new Ford F350 looks like a great truck. A buddy of mine has one -it accelerates like crazy! I just don't like buying the first year of a major change, so that 10 speed transmission would make me nervous.

B
Click to expand...

I run my excavation business on the side. We get busy in the summer and it's great on smaller concrete/asphalt tearout jobs to have a laborer that can drive a few tons of material at a time to the pit for recycling while I run a breaker or tear out on the excavator or bring a few yards of material at a time while I am installing it. Three years and it's been a different college kid each year and they are awesome but they don't have CDLs.

For right now, with this being a side hustle, I don't have the time or money to pay for the CDL training, plus it takes 4 weeks to complete and I'm lucky to have them for 12.

I absolutely would have bought another RAM, I'm content with the resolution even though it was a pain in the rear and I had to put a lot of time and pressure on the resolution. Unfortunately the sub 12k gross is just a deal breaker for me and only Ford offers it in a long bed. Yes there are compromises I could make such as a short bed or a 2500 but then I'm paying the price when I haul larger trailers myself.

I still don't understand the confusion over the need for the sub 12k gvwr. 90% of trailers out there have a 14k gvwr. Therefore you need a truck at 12k gvwr or less to legally be on the road without a CDL. I think the confusion is that I am trying to find one truck that fits BOTH needs: hauling my larger CDL trailer along with complying with non-CDL on the common 14k gvwr trailers.

Someday I'd love to give up the engineering day job and go full time with the excavation business, have a fleet of trucks appropriate for each trailer and a whole staff of highly trained employees with opportunities to give them the training they need or want, but that just isn't the situation right now.

I hope the Ford treats me well as the Rams have. The 2021 is the second year of the 10 speed with it being introduced in 2020. That was a major reason I skipped on the Ford when I bought this truck, hopefully in the last year they've worked out most of the kinks.
 
Good luck with your F-350. Sounds like it fits your bill. Glad to see that Ram did you right.
 
DoesRamCare? said:
I run my excavation business on the side. We get busy in the summer and it's great on smaller concrete/asphalt tearout jobs to have a laborer that can drive a few tons of material at a time to the pit for recycling while I run a breaker or tear out on the excavator or bring a few yards of material at a time while I am installing it. Three years and it's been a different college kid each year and they are awesome but they don't have CDLs.

For right now, with this being a side hustle, I don't have the time or money to pay for the CDL training, plus it takes 4 weeks to complete and I'm lucky to have them for 12.

I absolutely would have bought another RAM, I'm content with the resolution even though it was a pain in the rear and I had to put a lot of time and pressure on the resolution. Unfortunately the sub 12k gross is just a deal breaker for me and only Ford offers it in a long bed. Yes there are compromises I could make such as a short bed or a 2500 but then I'm paying the price when I haul larger trailers myself.

I still don't understand the confusion over the need for the sub 12k gvwr. 90% of trailers out there have a 14k gvwr. Therefore you need a truck at 12k gvwr or less to legally be on the road without a CDL. I think the confusion is that I am trying to find one truck that fits BOTH needs: hauling my larger CDL trailer along with complying with non-CDL on the common 14k gvwr trailers.

Someday I'd love to give up the engineering day job and go full time with the excavation business, have a fleet of trucks appropriate for each trailer and a whole staff of highly trained employees with opportunities to give them the training they need or want, but that just isn't the situation right now.

I hope the Ford treats me well as the Rams have. The 2021 is the second year of the 10 speed with it being introduced in 2020. That was a major reason I skipped on the Ford when I bought this truck, hopefully in the last year they've worked out most of the kinks.
Click to expand...
Thanks, that helps explain your situation a lot.
And, glad you were able to get a 2021 model; I'd be much more comfortable with that choice also.

Again, all the best with your new truck, and with growing your business!

B
 
Last thing I want to mention before we hang this one up (in case anyone else searches in the future for similar info):

The truck GVWR is a balancing act. Yes you can get a 2500 with a 10k GVWR and tow a 14k trailer but you're going to be cutting it really close and likely exceeding the rating on the truck. Here is why:

A 2500 will weigh right around 8k lbs leaving you 2k in payload (GVWR - curb weight = payload). Trailer tongue weight is going to eat into that payload. A properly loaded 14k bumper pull will put 10% tongue weight on the truck or 1400 lbs. You are now left with only 600 lbs of payload in your truck to stay under that 10k gvwr. I carry a 60 gallon diesel transfer tank which weighs about 500 lbs when full (including weight of the tank and pump/hose/handle/etc.) That leaves me with 100 lbs of payload and with tools materials etc it quickly puts me over that 10k gvwr. Even if you don't carry 400 lbs of diesel like I do, your curb weight is with only a single passenger, so throw a couple people in your truck, or some heavy tools and you're now in the same position.

So it isn't as simple as just getting a low GVWR truck, you need to make sure the payload can handle the tongue weights and everything else. In this example recommended by @DevilDodge you are going to put your 2500 over it's gvwr quickly and easily so even though the combo ratings are under that magic 26k you are going to overload the truck.

This is one of the big problems with tow ratings. Someone mentioned they can tow a 17.5k trailer with their 2500, and yes that is true if you keep the tongue weight right at 10% (1750 lbs) and put basically nothing else in the truck.

When a stater pulls you over and you don't have a CDL they are going to do any of the following depending on how ornery they feel that day:
  1. Look at the gvwr rating of the truck and the trailer add them up and check that you're under the 26k number
  2. Scale each axle to ensure you haven't exceed any of the GAWR (gross axle weight ratings)
  3. Add each axle to each vehicle (tow rig and trailer) to ensure you have exceed the GVWR of either vehicle.
  4. Add together all of the axle ratings to ensure you aren't over the 26k number.
When I get a new trailer or piece of equipment I go down to my local concrete yard that I have a good relationship with at closing time and I spend a good hour on the scale shifting my equipment fore and aft on the trailer to ensure the loaded position gives me the weight distributions I need. I then mark on my trailer where the equipment needs to be to ensure I get that distribution each time.

Yes a CDL gives your more wiggle room but this is a good practice either way.

For me and my situation the Ford with it's reduced GVWR F-350 at 11,400 is the perfect balance of having enough payload to handle my larger trailers while still being low enough to accommodate the sub 26k combined with a 14k dump or equipment trailer.

I really wish that RAM had a similar option. If they did, I'd be buying another RAM.

DevilDodge said:
This is very confusing. I am not really sure what you are asking

2500 crew cab long bed has 10k GVWR.
26k total would be truck and trailer.
Getting a lower GVWR doesn't help not exceeding 26k. The weight of the truck and occupants will not weight 12k...i am not understanding.
So the base weight of a 2500 crew diesel long bed would be about 8000lbs. So still leaving 18000 for trailer.
I do not get what you are asking. Lowering the GVWR has nothing to do with not exceeding 26k.
You would need to get a gasser 2500 to get the lowest weight
What am I missing?
Click to expand...
 
DoesRamCare? said:
Last thing I want to mention before we hang this one up (in case anyone else searches in the future for similar info):

The truck GVWR is a balancing act. Yes you can get a 2500 with a 10k GVWR and tow a 14k trailer but you're going to be cutting it really close and likely exceeding the rating on the truck. Here is why:

A 2500 will weigh right around 8k lbs leaving you 2k in payload (GVWR - curb weight = payload). Trailer tongue weight is going to eat into that payload. A properly loaded 14k bumper pull will put 10% tongue weight on the truck or 1400 lbs. You are now left with only 600 lbs of payload in your truck to stay under that 10k gvwr. I carry a 60 gallon diesel transfer tank which weighs about 500 lbs when full (including weight of the tank and pump/hose/handle/etc.) That leaves me with 100 lbs of payload and with tools materials etc it quickly puts me over that 10k gvwr. Even if you don't carry 400 lbs of diesel like I do, your curb weight is with only a single passenger, so throw a couple people in your truck, or some heavy tools and you're now in the same position.

So it isn't as simple as just getting a low GVWR truck, you need to make sure the payload can handle the tongue weights and everything else. In this example recommended by @DevilDodge you are going to put your 2500 over it's gvwr quickly and easily so even though the combo ratings are under that magic 26k you are going to overload the truck.

This is one of the big problems with tow ratings. Someone mentioned they can tow a 17.5k trailer with their 2500, and yes that is true if you keep the tongue weight right at 10% (1750 lbs) and put basically nothing else in the truck.

When a stater pulls you over and you don't have a CDL they are going to do any of the following depending on how ornery they feel that day:
  1. Look at the gvwr rating of the truck and the trailer add them up and check that you're under the 26k number
  2. Scale each axle to ensure you haven't exceed any of the GAWR (gross axle weight ratings)
  3. Add each axle to each vehicle (tow rig and trailer) to ensure you have exceed the GVWR of either vehicle.
  4. Add together all of the axle ratings to ensure you aren't over the 26k number.
When I get a new trailer or piece of equipment I go down to my local concrete yard that I have a good relationship with at closing time and I spend a good hour on the scale shifting my equipment fore and aft on the trailer to ensure the loaded position gives me the weight distributions I need. I then mark on my trailer where the equipment needs to be to ensure I get that distribution each time.

Yes a CDL gives your more wiggle room but this is a good practice either way.

For me and my situation the Ford with it's reduced GVWR F-350 at 11,400 is the perfect balance of having enough payload to handle my larger trailers while still being low enough to accommodate the sub 26k combined with a 14k dump or equipment trailer.

I really wish that RAM had a similar option. If they did, I'd be buying another RAM.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of the issues you need to solve are particular to your state. As others have mentioned, apparently other states allow for registering the max GCWR of your choice and avoid CDL requirements. (I have no idea how many states are similar to yours)
In most of the provinces in Canada, as soon as your trailer weight is over 4600kgs (10,000lbs) you will need the equivalent of a CDL (called a Class 1 license). When I got mine as a teenager, it was a written and driving test with a class of truck you were testing for. Now it requires a similar $$$s training course as you describe for your state.
Here, if you are towing an RV over 10k, there is a special endorsement you can add to your regular drivers license that does not require training classes (written and driving tests only). But, for all commercial uses including yours, all of your drivers would need a Class 1 (CDL) license here -due to the trailer GVWR and regardless of the truck GVWR or the resulting GCWR.

If I'm correct on the above and your situation only comes up in a few specific cases, then it may be less important for RAM to build a special "derated" long box. After all, they already have several options to address the GVWR issues, including 3500s in reg cab LB, CC SB and all of the 2500s. While that may not fit your needs, RAM may feel it addresses the needs of the majority of their clients. Ford sells a lot more trucks overall, so they must have felt it was worth it to have the lower GVWR option.

I'm assuming you've run the numbers on the new F350, and that you can load it up heavy and still be under your reduced truck payload? Depending on trim, could you run into a payload issue when towing your heaviest trailers, with fuel, tools and the crew?

B
 
kobra said:
I think a lot of the issues you need to solve are particular to your state. As others have mentioned, apparently other states allow for registering the max GCWR of your choice and avoid CDL requirements. (I have no idea how many states are similar to yours)
In most of the provinces in Canada, as soon as your trailer weight is over 4600kgs (10,000lbs) you will need the equivalent of a CDL (called a Class 1 license). When I got mine as a teenager, it was a written and driving test with a class of truck you were testing for. Now it requires a similar $$$s training course as you describe for your state.
Here, if you are towing an RV over 10k, there is a special endorsement you can add to your regular drivers license that does not require training classes (written and driving tests only). But, for all commercial uses including yours, all of your drivers would need a Class 1 (CDL) license here -due to the trailer GVWR and regardless of the truck GVWR or the resulting GCWR.

If I'm correct on the above and your situation only comes up in a few specific cases, then it may be less important for RAM to build a special "derated" long box. After all, they already have several options to address the GVWR issues, including 3500s in reg cab LB, CC SB and all of the 2500s. While that may not fit your needs, RAM may feel it addresses the needs of the majority of their clients. Ford sells a lot more trucks overall, so they must have felt it was worth it to have the lower GVWR option.

I'm assuming you've run the numbers on the new F350, and that you can load it up heavy and still be under your reduced truck payload? Depending on trim, could you run into a payload issue when towing your heaviest trailers, with fuel, tools and the crew?

B
Click to expand...

Exactly, I agree this is probably unique to me but I’m sure I’m not the only one and it’s probably not worth it to Ram to do the same.

The F350 I order has a payload of 3100 lbs. I just have to careful with towing my bigger trailers. Gooseneck/5th wheels I’d probably need to empty or remove my transfer tank to make that work but I don’t have any at the moment. But even with 15% tongue weight on a goose or 5th wheel a 20k trailer should be no problem.
 
The laws are very vauge here for payload but aslong as i am registered for the weight i have with me then i can go over the gvwr and im still ok aslong as the truck is not squatting or looking dangerous.... so far i have had 3000lbs in the back of my truck and it still was not squatting... tecnically i am almost over weight now with my plow and ballast its 1600 lbs plus my 5th wheel dump trailer
 
H3LZSN1P3R said:
The laws are very vauge here for payload but aslong as i am registered for the weight i have with me then i can go over the gvwr and im still ok aslong as the truck is not squatting or looking dangerous.... so far i have had 3000lbs in the back of my truck and it still was not squatting... tecnically i am almost over weight now with my plow and ballast its 1600 lbs plus my 5th wheel dump trailer
Click to expand...
Canada is the true land of the free. I wish it was as flexible here in the states.
 
DevilDodge said:
This is very confusing. I am not really sure what you are asking

2500 crew cab long bed has 10k GVWR.

26k total would be truck and trailer.


Getting a lower GVWR doesn't help not exceeding 26k. The weight of the truck and occupants will not weight 12k...i am not understanding.

So the base weight of a 2500 crew diesel long bed would be about 8000lbs. So still leaving 18000 for trailer.

I do not get what you are asking. Lowering the GVWR has nothing to do with not exceeding 26k.


You would need to get a gasser 2500 to get the lowest weight

What am I missing?
Click to expand...
Insurance dropped him perhaps
 
DoesRamCare? said:
  1. Look at the gvwr rating of the truck and the trailer add them up and check that you're under the 26k number
  2. Scale each axle to ensure you haven't exceed any of the GAWR (gross axle weight ratings)
  3. Add each axle to each vehicle (tow rig and trailer) to ensure you have exceed the GVWR of either vehicle.
  4. Add together all of the axle ratings to ensure you aren't over the 26k number
Click to expand...
And this is what I do not understand.

You completely changed your story from the first set up.

This is mute I guess. You ordered a ford. But since you now explained you understand weight...why can you not do the same thing with a RAM 3500. You can make the max registered weight 26k. And then load accordingly.

I lost interest already. Sorry. I am done.
 
DevilDodge said:
And this is what I do not understand.

You completely changed your story from the first set up.

This is mute I guess. You ordered a ford. But since you now explained you understand weight...why can you not do the same thing with a RAM 3500. You can make the max registered weight 26k. And then load accordingly.

I lost interest already. Sorry. I am done.
Click to expand...
It has absolutely nothing to do with what you register it for. It is what it is rated at from the factory. They look at the sticker on your door, not what you register it for.
 
DoesRamCare? said:
It has absolutely nothing to do with what you register it for. It is what it is rated at from the factory. They look at the sticker on your door, not what you register it for.
Click to expand...
What stare are You in? I missed that somewhere. Sorry. Guess it is your state that makes no sense.

This makes no sense at all. But guess Ford does this. Which makes even less sense to me. But I will just go back to being joe homeowner.
 
DevilDodge said:
What stare are You in? I missed that somewhere. Sorry. Guess it is your state that makes no sense.

This makes no sense at all. But guess Ford does this. Which makes even less sense to me. But I will just go back to being joe homeowner.
Click to expand...
Washington, very similar in many states though I haven’t gone in depth on any other state’s regulations.
 
DoesRamCare? said:
Washington, very similar in many states though I haven’t gone in depth on any other state’s regulations.
Click to expand...
I find that hard to believe how can you get in trouble for being under weight of 26k when registered under weight of the 26k and get in trouble because you bought a vehicle that is capable of more weight than 26k.... either you interpretation is wrong or the laws are completely retarded
 
H3LZSN1P3R said:
I find that hard to believe how can you get in trouble for being under weight of 26k when registered under weight of the 26k and get in trouble because you bought a vehicle that is capable of more weight than 26k.... either you interpretation is wrong or the laws are completely retarded
Click to expand...


Here I will post it again for you. Also I called my state patrol and two scale houses. Feeling pretty sure on this:


1612992345294.png
 
I looked up the Washington CDL requirements as well, just because I was curious and saw it presented with slightly different wording, but representing the same details. The big thing that stands out to me when comparing to Colorado's requirements is that Washington doesn't seem to restrict it to vehicles that are registered for commercial use.

You must have a commercial driver license (CDL) to drive any of the following vehicles:
  • All single vehicles with a manufacturer's weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more.
  • All trailers with a manufacturer's weight rating of 10,001 pounds or more, and a combined vehicles' gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more.
  • All vehicles designed to transport 16 or more persons (including the driver). This includes private and church buses.
  • All school buses, regardless of size.
  • All vehicles used to transport any material that requires hazardous material placarding or any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin
 
LateToTheParty said:
I looked up the Washington CDL requirements as well, just because I was curious and saw it presented with slightly different wording, but representing the same details. The big thing that stands out to me when comparing to Colorado's requirements is that Washington doesn't seem to restrict it to vehicles that are registered for commercial use.

You must have a commercial driver license (CDL) to drive any of the following vehicles:
  • All single vehicles with a manufacturer's weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more.
  • All trailers with a manufacturer's weight rating of 10,001 pounds or more, and a combined vehicles' gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more.
  • All vehicles designed to transport 16 or more persons (including the driver). This includes private and church buses.
  • All school buses, regardless of size.
  • All vehicles used to transport any material that requires hazardous material placarding or any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin
Click to expand...
They have a clause in another section that excludes RVs and horse trailers.
 
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