Cross Shopping HD Trucks

[mr_mbuna]

I had a busy day of test drives on Saturday! I was able to find at local dealers and drive the GMC Sierra 2500HD Denali Duramax, Sierra 3500HD AT4 Duramax, F-250 XLT 7.3L gas, F-250 Lariat 6.7L PSD, F150 Platinum 3.5L PowerBoost and Ram 2500 Laramie 6.7L Cummins. All new 2022 models.

Thoughts:

• Ram interior was the nicest, but Ford Lariat with the 12” screen is very competitive
• Ford XLT trim with cloth seats and 8” screen and the GMC interiors at all trim levels are clearly a generation behind
• Ram drove the nicest. GMC 1 ton felt stiffer than GMC 3/4 ton, even though I read it shouldn’t. F-250 shudders more than Ram or GMC.
• Ford PSD and Duramax felt faster than the Cummins
• Ford 7.3L gas with 3.55 gears was totally competent but not competitive with the diesels
• Ford power side steps make big clunking sounds; GMC and Ram steps are smoother
• Ram is the only one with adaptive cruise control with stop-and-go
• RamBox is cool but it does take away noticeable width from the bed
• The Ford and GMC touchscreens are most responsive (i.e., faster to respond) than the Ram
• Ford’s twin panel sunroof is impressive
• Credit to GMC for including good headlights on the SLT, AT4 and Denali trims. Most Ram 2500 and F-250 have crappy headlights.
• We are looking for a flat floor in the second row for our dogs. F-250 has the best flat floor in my opinion (you can fold down the underseat storage compartment). Ram has an interesting elevated platform that folds out over the underseat storage (my wife thought that was best, I think it's just a hack for not being able to get rid of the transmission tunnel). GMC requires unscrewing and removing the underseat storage compartment, which is worst of all.
• F-150 Platinum PowerBoost is an impressive truck - feature parity with my BMW X5, SUV like driving experience, 11K lb towing capacity. Payload is the tragic flaw (only 1338 lbs).
• None of these trucks are worth MSRP or MSRP + $10K, which seemed to be the market norm in my area (NorCal). American trucks are supposed to sell for $10K-$15K under MSRP. I can’t wait until normal times return.

I am now thinking about which one to buy (or none at all - I could keep renting a 3/4 ton from Enterprise Truck when I need one). My use cases are daily driving (mostly short city trips), 300+ mile road trips, towing a 10,000 lb boat and towing a 6,000 lb track car.

• The Ram 2500 is very nice but to get some important features to me like leather and LED headlights you have to get a Limited or Limited Longhorn, which quickly becomes a $90K truck with options.
• I think an F-250 Platinum with the 7.3L gas engine, 4.3 limited-slip rear axle, and almost no other options would be the ideal truck for me. I would get a 12" screen, leather interior, adaptive cruise control, LED headlights, etc., for $70K. However any F-250 Platinums on the lot are loaded with $15K+ of options and even more dealer markup. Ford dealers also seem the least willing to negotiate (I've contacted ~20 across the West Coast). The F-250 is also likely to have a major redesign in the next year or two and I hate having my vehicles feel "old" quickly.
• Right now my "short list" of available options (all crew cab short bed) ranked by cost is:
  • Pre-owned 2017 Ford F-250 XLT with 6.7L Diesel, XLT Value Package, High Capacity Towing Package, Cloth Buckets and 61K miles for $50K. Cons: no warranty, no LED headlights, no leather, no 12" screen, no Adaptive Cruise or Adaptive Steering.
  • Pre-owned 2019 Ram 2500 Big Horn with 6.7L Diesel, Anti-Slip Differential, Sport Appearance, Level 2 Equipment and 56K miles for $55K-$59K. Cons: only 2 years of powertrain warranty, no LED headlights, no leather, no 12” screen, no Adaptive Cruise or Adaptive Steering.
  • 2022 F-250 XLT with 7.3L Gas Engine, 3.55 LSD, XLT Premium Package, Cloth Bucket Seats for $60K. Cons: no LED headlights, no leather, no 12” screen, no 4.3 gears (ideal for the 7.3L if you tow), no Adaptive Cruise or Adaptive Steer.
  • 2022 GMC Sierra 2500HD AT4 with Duramax and AT4 Premium Package for $73K (a large discount from MSRP due to GM Supplier pricing, which I'd have to travel 1000 miles to get). Cons: no Adaptive Cruise or Adaptive Steer, no 12” screen (dated interior), not cheap.
  • 2022 Ram 2500 Laramie with 6.7L Diesel, LSD, Leather Bucket Seats, Safety Group B (Adaptive Cruise, Adaptive Steering), Sport Appearance Package, Laramie Level D (Trailer Mirrors, Ventilated Seats, Rain Sensing Wipers, Premium Sound), Cargo View Camera, 12" Screen for $79K. Cons: no LED headlights, expensive, dealers won't honor FCA Affiliate pricing.
  • 2022 F-250 Platinum with 6.7L Diesel, 3.31 LSD, FX4 Package, Twin Panel Moonroof, Bedliner for $84K. Cons: no Adaptive Steer, High Capacity Tow, expensive, dealers won't honor X-Plan pricing.
• If I had to pick today, I would say I am most likely to buy the pre-owned 2019 Ram 2500. The other options are just so expensive.

Would love to hear your questions and feedback!

 

[Brutal_HO]

Thoughts:

• Ford PSD and Duramax felt faster than the Cummins

Cummins is built to tow, it will not run light to light with the other two.

• Ram is the only one with adaptive cruise control with stop-and-go

Unless something changed for 2022, ACC is follow and stop only.

• The Ford and GMC touchscreens are most responsive (i.e., faster to respond) than the Ram

There's a lot going on with the new UConnect5, including them still working out a lot of bugs

• Credit to GMC for including good headlights on the SLT, AT4 and Denali trims. Most Ram 2500 and F-250 have crappy headlights.

Yes, have to get into higher trims (LED) or Limited to get LED projector and adaptive lights. Good thing is besides the expense, it's easy to upgrade.

• None of these trucks are worth MSRP or MSRP + $10K, which seemed to be the market norm in my area (NorCal). American trucks are supposed to sell for $10K-$15K under MSRP. I can’t wait until normal times return.

Volume dealers like Mark Dodge in LA are still doing ~4% under invoice on factory orders.

• The Ram 2500 is very nice but to get some important features to me like leather and LED headlights you have to get a Limited or Limited Longhorn, which quickly becomes a $90K truck with options.

Laramie offers LED (not projector), but the leather is bonded. Limited or Longhorn is top grain leather. Worth it.

• Right now my "short list" of available options (all crew cab short bed) ranked by cost is:
  • Pre-owned 2019 Ram 2500 Big Horn with 6.7L Diesel, Anti-Slip Differential, Sport Appearance, Level 2 Equipment and 56K miles for $55K-$59K. Cons: only 2 years of powertrain warranty, no LED headlights, no leather, no 12” screen, no Adaptive Cruise or Adaptive Steering.

2019-2020 RAM trucks have a CP4.2 fuel pump recall that's still awaiting parts. FWIW, The Ford diesel uses the same pump.

• 2022 Ram 2500 Laramie with 6.7L Diesel, LSD, Leather Bucket Seats, Safety Group B (Adaptive Cruise, Adaptive Steering), Sport Appearance Package, Laramie Level D (Trailer Mirrors, Ventilated Seats, Rain Sensing Wipers, Premium Sound), Cargo View Camera, 12" Screen for $79K. Cons: no LED headlights, expensive, dealers won't honor FCA Affiliate pricing.

Again, volume dealers like Mark Dodge in LA are still doing ~4% under invoice on factory orders.

While a 2500 may fit your tow needs today, realize that a 2500 RAM Diesel has a pitiful payload, even more pitiful with Rambox. Don't use the website marketing numbers. You need to look at the Ram Towing guide and pull the PDF charts. Even then, adding options will reduce payload.

 

[Brutal_HO]

I had a busy day of test drives on Saturday comparing all of the popular offerings in the 3/4 ton segment: a 2022 Ram 2500 Laramie Cummins, 2022 GMC Sierra 2500HD Denali Duramax, 2022 GMC Sierra 3500HD AT4 Duramax, 2022 Ford F-250 XLT 7.3L, 2022 F-250 Lariat PSD. I also had my arm twisted by a salesman into driving the 2022 Ford F-150 Platinum PowerBoost, which had very impressive driving dynamics.

For a structured summary, here is how I would say each brand compared by category:

• Braking: the Ram felt like it needed more pressure on the pedal to stop, but measured tests show it actually has a competitive 60-0 distance (135 ft, vs. 134 ft for the GMC and 155 ft for the Ford)

Big thread on that here. the Hydroboost and nanny computers can make the pedal feel "soft." Stab it and it will haul it to zero quickly. Biggest brakes and best stopping rating among the three.

• Interior: Ram > Ford > GMC. This is not so subjective. The new interior coming to the GM twins next year is overdue.

Here are my unstructured thoughts on each model:

• Ram interior was the nicest, but Ford Lariat with the 12” screen is very competitive

FWIW, 2023 RAM models will bring a new 12" all digital cluster. Also coming are new tow mirrors. Threads here to read up.

 

[slvrsix7]

My 2022 with ACC is stop and go as long as your not stopped for more than a couple seconds.

 

[Blythkd1]

Surprised to hear the Ram drives the best. I just traded for my first Ram and I agree it drives very nicely, way better than I expected before my first test drive. But I traded off a 2021 3500 Chevy that absolutely drove like a car. It was a High Country with adaptive steering, or whatever they call it. My big beef with GM is under the hood of the diesels. At least my last 8 previous primary pickups were GM, 3 of them Duramax models, and the last 2 both got pretty deep into my pockets. The past 2 generations of Duramax, going on 12 years now, have been riddled with issues. Many of the GM fan boys will rave about the latest engine but I'm not convinced it's any better than the previous generation. And on top of that, seems like GM goes out of their way now to find a reason not to cover a repair under warranty. I mean if it's a cut and dried warranty issues, sure they're going to cover it but it's very frustrating to have a pile of money tied up in a truck or be making payments and have your truck sitting in the shop continually. When I bought the Ram a month ago, actually ordered in December, GM is the last diesel of the big 3 that I would have bought. And that's coming from a lifelong GM guy, well maybe Ram guy now! So far so good.

I guess the synopsis of my brief novel is - I wouldn't buy a Duramax.

 

[G’Dave]

“I am now thinking about which one to buy (or none at all - I could keep renting a 3/4 ton from Enterprise Truck when I need one). My use cases are daily driving (mostly short city trips), 300+ mile road trips, towing a 10,000 lb boat and towing a 6,000 lb track car”.

@mr_mbuna , it looks like you either didn’t consider the Hemi, or didn’t find one to test drive. The Ram 2500 and 3500 models all come with the 6.4L Hemi and 8 speed ZF transmission. It sounds pathetic on paper compared to Godzilla (7.3L with 10 sp), but it’s an excellent combination. I can show you a 2500 Laramie that I ordered earlier this year for $57k (MSRP about 65k).
15k towing capacity, >3k payload, no Ram boxes. This was with the 3.73. You can add approximately another 1k towing with the 4.10 option.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mr_mbuna]

@mr_mbuna , it looks like you either didn’t consider the Hemi, or didn’t find one to test drive. The Ram 2500 and 3500 models all come with the 6.4L Hemi and 8 speed ZF transmission. It sounds pathetic on paper compared to Godzilla (7.3L with 10 sp), but it’s an excellent combination.

I didn’t consider the Hemi 6.4L because of its performance on the TFL Ike Gauntlet test. I’m also not considering the GM 6.6L gas. The Ford 7.3L is the exception due to its rave reviews.

 

[Shadowboxin20]

If leather and trim is the hang up just get A cheaper model and throw some Katskin on it. I did that with the wife’s truck and saved a ****load. Interior looks the exact same minutes the headrest TVs

 

[hunterjoe]

I didn’t consider the Hemi 6.4L because of its performance on the TFL Ike Gauntlet test. I’m also not considering the GM 6.6L gas. The Ford 7.3L is the exception due to its rave reviews.

If you're worried about that test, then get the 4.10s. If you're only towing 10k and had the 4.10s I'm betting you that experience would be quite a bit different.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

I didn’t consider the Hemi 6.4L because of its performance on the TFL Ike Gauntlet test. I’m also not considering the GM 6.6L gas. The Ford 7.3L is the exception due to its rave reviews.

Your towing 10k and not up a massive mountain daily, TFL is a bit of a joke and unless your doing the ike gauntlet daily its irrelevant

 

[Blythkd1]

As I stated previously, I'm off the GM bandwagon, but I have to admit the '21 SRW 3500 that I just traded off had the 6.6 gas and I was very impressed. I've logged a lot of miles heavy with a 6.0L gas and was prepared to be fairly unimpressed with the new gas engine. But it towed great and gets the best gas mileage of the bunch, certainly better than the 7.3 Ford. Most empty mileage reports I've heard on the 7.3 are in the 10-12 range. I got 16-17 with the 6.6 without trying. With my 5th wheel it got about 8 running 65-70.

You don't really need a diesel truck to tow 10,000# unless you spend all your time in the mountains. Gas trucks will do just fine with it and save you $10k.

I'm certainly not stumping for GM, just trying to share all the facts as I know them for the benefit of others.

 

[AEV_CUMMINS]

Be a man.. blow your budget and buy a 2500 Limited and throw on a Carli kit with the R2 springs in the back for 2500lbs payload. Trust me.. not a bank in the world will be able to keep up chasing you down that FSR when they come looking for the truck payments

 

[mr_mbuna]

As I stated previously, I'm off the GM bandwagon, but I have to admit the '21 SRW 3500 that I just traded off had the 6.6 gas and I was very impressed.

If you think TFL's Ike Gauntlet tests are irrelevant, this statement will be too, but I was surprised the Chevy HD gas truck took 11m 53s to get up the Ike Gauntlet and got only 2.4 MPG doing it. The Ram 2500 gas truck took 10:30 and got 2.6 MPG doing it. The F-250 7.3L gas with 4.3 rear end did it in 8:42 and got 2.2 MPG. For comparison, the F-250 diesel did it in 8:05 and got 4.2 MPG. The Chevy 2500HD diesel did it in 8:00 and got 4.2 MPG. The Ram 2500 diesel did it in 8:00 and got 4.7 MPG. Based on those numbers, the Ford 7.3L seems like an interesting in-between option.

For daily driving or towing my boat on flat land between one marina and another I am sure they would all do fine.

 

[bigrobtemp]

You could check with other dealers and get a very well equipped Ram Tradesman? I have ACC, 12 inch screen, and many of the things your looking for. I have a dually but you could order a SRW. I had a 15 F350 and it was an awesome truck, I bought it used with 150 thousand miles and traded it in with 187 on it and made 4 grand. One of my brothers drives a GMC Denali diesel and likes it but just ordered an F450. I guess it's all relative, I happen to be a 29yr Chrysler employee so a new Ram was the best option.

 

[kevin588127]

I would just order one the way you want it. My local dealers are marking them up 5k over MSRP. I ordered from Mark Dodge and got 11 percent off of MSRP. Pretty big price swing there.

I also liked the idea of the Godzilla but there were too many negatives. It was a pretty big bump in price. I watched all the tfl videos several times and I don't think the ram did much worse. Actually, if I was going to be towing those weights on steep grades, I wouldn't even be considering a gasser. Now with that said, I tow 10k a dozen times per year through rolling hills. The hemi was the obvious choice for me. With diesel being 1.50 more per gallon, I'm liking that choice right now.

 

[Brutal_HO]

My 2022 with ACC is stop and go as long as your not stopped for more than a couple seconds.

Right, but that's not true Stop and Go. It cancels after a few seconds and doesn't hold the brakes or read strep lamps to resume. Perhaps it should be called Stop and resume.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Right, but that's not true Stop and Go. It cancels after a few seconds and doesn't hold the brakes or read strep lamps to resume. Perhaps it should be called Stop and resume.

Its still gotta be beter than this damn 2021 4runner i have as a rental while my deer damage is fixed on the truck, this adaptive cruise works well but at 25mph it will stop braking so its an interesting experience first figuring it out it out

 

[@JC]

Right, but that's not true Stop and Go. It cancels after a few seconds and doesn't hold the brakes or read strep lamps to resume. Perhaps it should be called Stop and resume.

I haven't been able to figure out why auto companies think it's a good idea to disable safety systems that are in use when you don't intervene. Hands are off the wheel for 2 corrections? ok we'll disable the lane keeping assist and shoot that driver out into the ditch, that'll show him... don't push the brakes at a full stop with ACC on? ok we'll disable the auto braking and slam into the car in front of you... Yeah all great ideas there.

 

[Firebird]

I traded my 2019 6.4 with 4.10 gears last year for my current dually. Only did it because they wanted it so bad, they threw a lot of money at me. As gas trucks go, that thing was a very capable truck! I liked it a lot, it’s not in the same league as my 6.7 dually, but was an excellent gas truck. They are worth looking at.

 

[JohnandDonna]

Did you look at the Ram MegaCab, available in the 2500 or 3500 in Big Horn and above trim levels? The whole back seat folds down and creates a huge flat space. And your right as to the cost of trucks today, unbelievable. Have you considered ordering? This way you get exactly what you want. For as much as these trucks cost, why settle?