I’d be interested to hear from those who have towed with a Hemi.
Ram Heavy Duty Forum
Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Can’t decide: Rebel Cummins or P. wagon
- Thread starter jems007
- Start date
- Messages
- 5,212
- Reaction score
- 5,415
- Points
- 113
Does the PW use the CAD the non-PW’s use?
It’s my understanding that the CAD is why there aren’t many, if any, traction aids available for the 13+ HD’s.
H3LZSN1P3R
You're doing it wrong
CAD axles are actually better for having lockers IMO especially the old lunchbox lockers no handling issues after
ARB sells lockers for front and rear up to 2019 on the HD.
Flatland non PW Hemi/3.73 owner pulling a 10k 5er. When I hook the trailer up I am in the 7-9 range depending on wind and terrain.
Sent from me
Not too bad on that one. The PW Might be slightly worse due to the tires. I've towed with the 5.7 HEMI but not the 6.4. Lots of chat online about it and it seems 6-9 is about right.
Rockcrawlindude
a rock crawlin’ dude
Non pw 2500 gasser here. I pull ~7k enclosed, manage 10.7 mpg on the evic and with 8-900lb of tongue weight I have gobs of traction. I never have an issue maneuvering a trailer in oddball rutted out campsites or anything like that. Sometimes have to use 4lo because it’s steep but haven’t gotten her stuck yet.
My vote is for the gasser with some sort of airbag or something
My vote is for the gasser with some sort of airbag or something
- Messages
- 5,212
- Reaction score
- 5,415
- Points
- 113
Didn’t realize that. I hadn’t looked at them specifically (ran them in the past, but don’t want one these days), but I was looking for a TruTrac and they don’t have them.
Yes, there can be some advantages but I’m guessing they aren’t compatible with a LSD.
I hear you. The two things I get hung up on when thinking PW gasser is payload. Fully loaded trailer and me dog and wife I’m like 100lbs below payload. Add water to the tanks and I’m prob over.
If i want to throw some 37s on down the road it’ll put me over for sure on payload. Plus eat in to my gas
H3LZSN1P3R
You're doing it wrong
Absolutely they are i have had a a few CAD axle jeeps with lockers of a few different varieties including fully welded diffs
I would stand to guess the reason we dont have lockers available is #1 demand for it since the PW can be bought with one. And #2 the 9.25 front axle we have is not a strong axle to begin with behind the cummins.
- Messages
- 5,212
- Reaction score
- 5,415
- Points
- 113
I’ve done more looking into a TruTrac, which will behave differently than a true locker or welded diff. That probably explains my thought. There is a TT available for these trucks every year that didn’t have CAD.
H3LZSN1P3R
You're doing it wrong
Yes i know what you mean those are a lunchbox style Aussie locker which is also very common for CAD axles which i have also run with 0 issues on a CAD axle
UglyViking
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 1,410
- Reaction score
- 1,788
- Points
- 113
Ok, so you're sort of comparing apples and oranges in trucks here.
I think you need to decide if you want a Hemi or a Cummins to start, because that is gonna somewhat force a decision.
From there, take a quick look at fuel prices. Hemi takes regular, Cummins obviously diesel. Prices will range everywhere, but taking national averages from AAA, and assuming 13mpg for Hemi and 19mpg for Cummins (sort of a best/worst case on 37s for each assuming highway travel at 12k miles a year), you're looking at a difference of $625 for the year, or $52 a month. Now, you also need to take into account maintenance. Hemi oil filters are like $8 bucks? Takes 5qt for a change so assume $40 per change in oil. Changes are 2x as frequent as Cummins so lets round a little and say $100 a year in oil changes. Cummins needs oil and 2x fuel filters at ~$135 per change if bought through Genos. Cummins needs 3 gal, so that's $70-ish bucks. So the Cummins maintenance is $205 per year vs $100. Now your savings on fuel is $525 per year with the Cummins, or ~$44 a month.
Then, you have to take into account that the Cummins is a ~10k option over the Hemi. So assuming you keep it a full decade, and you're at 1k a year (ie. the cummins will cost $475 per year more after fuel than the Hemi). Assuming you keep the truck 20 years, you break even (assuming no major emissions issues and equal spending on both).
Unless you really want the Cummins or tow enough to justify it, it just doesn't make sense. The only other benefits are longer distance for "overland" travel (which is sort of a wash considering how many guys overland tacos that are loaded and getting 13mpg with a smaller tank) and use of the truck pumps along the highway (this is a huge plus if towing a large trailer often, at at 6k I'll assume it's not larger than 28', so less a concern).
Now, between the PW and other options, I'll say that everything that comes stock on the PW can be added aftermarket with at least as good quality, if not better, you're just paying. The biggest "con" of the power wagon is it's limited payload, due to it's soft springs. You can help on the towing side by adding airbags, removable airbags, or removable sumosprings, etc. There are a million options here for tow support. Additionally, you can swap coils from the PW to Carli R2, which are stiffer in the rear. The hardest item to add aftermarket to the PW is the disconnecting swaybar. You can get softer swaybars from Carli and Thuren that are higher clearance for larger tires, or you can just disconnect the OEM bar when necessary. The plus with the PW is you can disconnect from the cabin, the con is that it has a bunch of nanny systems for reconnecting it at "speed", which would annoy me to no end.
Lockers can be added after the fact according to what I've been reading. Apparently the ARB kits can be added to the 12" rear axle housing, even if ARB says it's not true, according to two sources that have had it done. ARB lockers are gonna be stronger than the OEM PW ones because of how they engage, but you also need to make sure the air lines are routed correctly and install is super important or they aren't gonna work as easy as the oem.
End of the day, both trucks are viable options, but if you're not a diesel guy (and wiling to pay the tax) and it's not a need, then I don't know why you'd spend the money for a few mpg more. Personally, if I weren't such a diesel bro, then I'd get the hemi, add a nice exhaust, and call it a day.
I think you need to decide if you want a Hemi or a Cummins to start, because that is gonna somewhat force a decision.
From there, take a quick look at fuel prices. Hemi takes regular, Cummins obviously diesel. Prices will range everywhere, but taking national averages from AAA, and assuming 13mpg for Hemi and 19mpg for Cummins (sort of a best/worst case on 37s for each assuming highway travel at 12k miles a year), you're looking at a difference of $625 for the year, or $52 a month. Now, you also need to take into account maintenance. Hemi oil filters are like $8 bucks? Takes 5qt for a change so assume $40 per change in oil. Changes are 2x as frequent as Cummins so lets round a little and say $100 a year in oil changes. Cummins needs oil and 2x fuel filters at ~$135 per change if bought through Genos. Cummins needs 3 gal, so that's $70-ish bucks. So the Cummins maintenance is $205 per year vs $100. Now your savings on fuel is $525 per year with the Cummins, or ~$44 a month.
Then, you have to take into account that the Cummins is a ~10k option over the Hemi. So assuming you keep it a full decade, and you're at 1k a year (ie. the cummins will cost $475 per year more after fuel than the Hemi). Assuming you keep the truck 20 years, you break even (assuming no major emissions issues and equal spending on both).
Unless you really want the Cummins or tow enough to justify it, it just doesn't make sense. The only other benefits are longer distance for "overland" travel (which is sort of a wash considering how many guys overland tacos that are loaded and getting 13mpg with a smaller tank) and use of the truck pumps along the highway (this is a huge plus if towing a large trailer often, at at 6k I'll assume it's not larger than 28', so less a concern).
Now, between the PW and other options, I'll say that everything that comes stock on the PW can be added aftermarket with at least as good quality, if not better, you're just paying. The biggest "con" of the power wagon is it's limited payload, due to it's soft springs. You can help on the towing side by adding airbags, removable airbags, or removable sumosprings, etc. There are a million options here for tow support. Additionally, you can swap coils from the PW to Carli R2, which are stiffer in the rear. The hardest item to add aftermarket to the PW is the disconnecting swaybar. You can get softer swaybars from Carli and Thuren that are higher clearance for larger tires, or you can just disconnect the OEM bar when necessary. The plus with the PW is you can disconnect from the cabin, the con is that it has a bunch of nanny systems for reconnecting it at "speed", which would annoy me to no end.
Lockers can be added after the fact according to what I've been reading. Apparently the ARB kits can be added to the 12" rear axle housing, even if ARB says it's not true, according to two sources that have had it done. ARB lockers are gonna be stronger than the OEM PW ones because of how they engage, but you also need to make sure the air lines are routed correctly and install is super important or they aren't gonna work as easy as the oem.
End of the day, both trucks are viable options, but if you're not a diesel guy (and wiling to pay the tax) and it's not a need, then I don't know why you'd spend the money for a few mpg more. Personally, if I weren't such a diesel bro, then I'd get the hemi, add a nice exhaust, and call it a day.
Thanks for the detailed response. Good stuff….
If you have any sources or links to validate adding a front locker to a rebel 2500 is possible, Id be very grateful.
Regarding the price difference, I have a dealer offering me 10% below MSRP with a strong trade offer on the rebel, and only 5% below on the PW (essentially $500 below invoice) so the price difference is only about 3k for this dealer between the two
I would venture to say demand is probably the leading reason why they don’t exist. We can get real technical quick but I’d venture to say the cost to design, manufacture, stock etc just isn’t worth it. I’d be willing to gamble one could toss a PW center section in a diesel and get it to work. A little far out of my expertise. Or, just a buy a whole PW axle.
UglyViking
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 1,410
- Reaction score
- 1,788
- Points
- 113
I'm not sure which locker you're referring to, but the front axle across all ram 2500/3500 trucks is identical. It's a AAM 9.25" axle, and it's been the same axle since Dodge updated the front suspension from coilover to radius arm. So any front locker that fits into the 12 bolt AAM 9.25" will work. OEM PW e-locker, ARB, etc. all fit. Just find the locker you want to use, and check the MFGs spec.