Automatic Regen too often

[OLEJOE]

The engine oils that should be used in these engines should be those meeting API CK-4 standard, which is the low ash formulation. Started back in ‘06 with CJ-4 and then was further improved when the CK-4 was adopted. Pretty sure it’s a 1% ash requirement. Anyone running anything pre-CJ-4 or CK-4 would increase the risk of some higher ash content in the DPF. Ash content in the DOF should be lower using the correct oil, however that obviously will fluctuate truck to truck and oil to oil. These trucks shouldn’t be consuming a lot of oil. There’s been some discussion about certain oils being more volatile and that can increase consumption. I have heard some rumblings about a potential TSB coming out that may direct dealerships to reduce the total sump capacity to 11 quarts in an attempt to reduce the potential for oil aeration and excessive oil being passed through the CCV system and ultimately into the combustion chamber, thereby increasing ash downstream. It would also reduce the potential for dead hydraulic lifters…

I’ve been running 11.5 qts in mine since the last oil change. We had a fleet of C13 Cats that were having actuator problems and Cat sent out all new dipsticks marked 2 gallons lower and remedied the problem. Evidently it was an oil aeration problem.

 

[mbarber84]

I’ve been running 11.5 qts in mine since the last oil change. We had a fleet of C13 Cats that were having actuator problems and Cat sent out all new dipsticks marked 2 gallons lower and remedied the problem. Evidently it was an oil aeration problem.

Just like the other performance parameters of oil, the amount of aeration will depend partially on the brand of oil used. Some oils are substantially more prone to aeration than others.

 

[OLEJOE]

We used to have some trucks with N series Cummins engines that ran 1 gallon low on the dipstick. Put it on the full mark and it would blow it out back down to the gallon low mark and stay right there. But these were all mechanical engines. The only electronic part on the engine was the fuel cut off and it had a mechanical override.

 

[TomTom]

Just a quick update on the DPF differential pressure sensor ground wire relocation:

Talked to the owner today. He has been hauling a 16,000lb. excavator around with it. Truck has regenerated 4 times in less than 100 miles.

So you can be assured the ground wire didn’t fix the issue. He called the dealer back and complained…

Dealers response: “Call us back when the check engine light comes on”

Damn….weird that 4 Regens in 100 miles wouldn’t trip a CEL.

 

[TomTom]

I’ve been running 11.5 qts in mine since the last oil change. We had a fleet of C13 Cats that were having actuator problems and Cat sent out all new dipsticks marked 2 gallons lower and remedied the problem. Evidently it was an oil aeration problem.

They didn’t make any changes to the engine though for the previous year that would impact this though right? The 2021 also takes 11.5 quarts?

 

[OLEJOE]

They didn’t make any changes to the engine though for the previous year that would impact this though right? The 2021 also takes 11.5 quarts?

It calls for 12 qts but I only use 11.5. It registers in the safe zone, doesn’t use any and hasn’t gained any. It very rarely runs over 2000 rpm so I don’t think it will have any starvation problems.

 

[AH64ID]

Neither one was time based. The Scanguage showed the counting up on soot and regened exactly when it hit 100%. I've NEVER had a time based regen since the truck is solely used for towing almost 100% on the highway and I keep very precise records of regens, fuel consumption, etc? Honestly I'm not even sure about the 24 hour bit since I've never seen a regen on this truck or my prior trucks that regened at 24 hours, only when at 100% soot load.

Just to clarify do realize that the PID shown on the scanning, or any other OBDiI monitor, is not just soot based, right? Your comments about 24 hour regens indicate a misunderstanding of the PID data.

The PID will show the higher of time or soot, so 100% doesn’t mean it was a soot based regen it can also mean it’s a time based regen.

With adequate passive regen to keep the DPF gauge at 0% the PID will bounce around between time at startup and soot, usually no higher than 50%. You can see small amounts of soot be captured and then passively burned as EGT’s increase from load. Once you hit around 12 hours since the last regen time takes over and the PID percentage will increase 0.4% every ~5 min and 45 seconds, or a whole percent every 14 minutes and 24 seconds.

Right now my trucks PID shows 80.0% and the dash DPF gauge is at 0%. It’s been 19 hours on the dash hour meter since my last regen and 80.0% is 19.2 hours, my PID is being driven by time not soot right now.

 

[steve49]

Just to clarify do realize that the PID shown on the scanning, or any other OBDiI monitor, is not just soot based, right? Your comments about 24 hour regens indicate a misunderstanding of the PID data.

The PID will show the higher of time or soot, so 100% doesn’t mean it was a soot based regen it can also mean it’s a time based regen.

With adequate passive regen to keep the DPF gauge at 0% the PID will bounce around between time at startup and soot, usually no higher than 50%. You can see small amounts of soot be captured and then passively burned as EGT’s increase from load. Once you hit around 12 hours since the last regen time takes over and the PID percentage will increase 0.4% every ~5 min and 45 seconds, or a whole percent every 14 minutes and 24 seconds.

Right now my trucks PID shows 80.0% and the dash DPF gauge is at 0%. It’s been 19 hours on the dash hour meter since my last regen and 80.0% is 19.2 hours, my PID is being driven by time not soot right now.

Aside from the excessive regen issue, I think the biggest confusion is the dash gauge itself! I don't believe it's accurate in it's readings, which can be seen by plugging in any OBDII reader that can monitor regens. With my Scangauge when I had my 14 EcoDiesel (there was no regen dash gauge) the soot % would build and when it reached 80-90% the active regen would occur, and when it stopped it would show around 7-9% remaining. The dash gauge in my 19 2500 shows 0-100%, the highest I've seen it get was just shy of 50% then do a regen. Of course it would fluctuate up and down with a passive regens. With the Scangauge I can see the soot % increase and decrease with passive regens and gradually rise along with the 24hr clock time until it reaches the 99.9% or 24hr time based regen. When the regen is done the Scangauge shows around 18-20% left. The trucks dash gauge should read the same soot % level increase and decrease before and after a regen as the after market reader does. It would appear to me the trucks dash gauge is not properly registering the PID correctly, thus leaving owners confused when increasing and back to 0 in between/after regens or never coming off zero. The DPF soot % is never at 0 at anytime before a regen or after a regen, there is always a level of soot there. If one wants to really see what going on you need to get a OBDII monitoring device, it may not be 100% accurate, but it will give you a better visual idea of what's going on!

 

[AH64ID]

Aside from the excessive regen issue, I think the biggest confusion is the dash gauge itself! I don't believe it's accurate in it's readings, which can be seen by plugging in any OBDII reader that can monitor regens. With my Scangauge when I had my 14 EcoDiesel (there was no regen dash gauge) the soot % would build and when it reached 80-90% the active regen would occur, and when it stopped it would show around 7-9% remaining. The dash gauge in my 19 2500 shows 0-100%, the highest I've seen it get was just shy of 50% then do a regen. Of course it would fluctuate up and down with a passive regens. With the Scangauge I can see the soot % increase and decrease with passive regens and gradually rise along with the 24hr clock time until it reaches the 99.9% or 24hr time based regen. When the regen is done the Scangauge shows around 18-20% left. The trucks dash gauge should read the same soot % level increase and decrease before and after a regen as the after market reader does. It would appear to me the trucks dash gauge is not properly registering the PID correctly, thus leaving owners confused when increasing and back to 0 in between/after regens or never coming off zero. The DPF soot % is never at 0 at anytime before a regen or after a regen, there is always a level of soot there. If one wants to really see what going on you need to get a OBDII monitoring device, it may not be 100% accurate, but it will give you a better visual idea of what's going on!

The dash gauge and PID are not showing the same thing, so it’s difficult to correlate them all of the time.

The PID will show %age to the next regen at whatever is higher, time or spot.

The dash gauge just shows soot loading. Active regen is triggered at ~45% full on the dash gauge. If it goes above ~45% there are regen issues and if it gets above ~60% you’ll start to get dash warnings.

About the only time you can correlate the PID and the dash gauge is when the PID is at 100% and the dash is at ~45% you know that it’s a soot based regen. Even that’s not absolute as you can be ~45% on the dash gauge and still trigger a 24 hour based regen before the soot loading will trigger it.

 

[mbarber84]

The dash gauge and PID are not showing the same thing, so it’s difficult to correlate them all of the time.

The PID will show %age to the next regen at whatever is higher, time or spot.

The dash gauge just shows soot loading. Active regen is triggered at ~45% full on the dash gauge. If it goes above ~45% there are regen issues and if it gets above ~60% you’ll start to get dash warnings.

About the only time you can correlate the PID and the dash gauge is when the PID is at 100% and the dash is at ~45% you know that it’s a soot based regen. Even that’s not absolute as you can be ~45% on the dash gauge and still trigger a 24 hour based regen before the soot loading will trigger it.

And we wonder why these things are screwing up left and right….

I’m not sure how much more complicated they could have made this system programming. The software / programming has to be part of the issue. The other half of the issue is the DPF itself. I’m thinking there are either poor quality materials at play here, or the design is such that it doesn’t adequately flow / clean like the older ones did (the C&C filters look very similar and they seem to be far less problematic. Straight through flow and no bottleneck between the DOC and DPF)

 

[steve49]

The dash gauge and PID are not showing the same thing, so it’s difficult to correlate them all of the time.

The PID will show %age to the next regen at whatever is higher, time or spot.

The dash gauge just shows soot loading. Active regen is triggered at ~45% full on the dash gauge. If it goes above ~45% there are regen issues and if it gets above ~60% you’ll start to get dash warnings.

About the only time you can correlate the PID and the dash gauge is when the PID is at 100% and the dash is at ~45% you know that it’s a soot based regen. Even that’s not absolute as you can be ~45% on the dash gauge and still trigger a 24 hour based regen before the soot loading will trigger it.

That's why I believe the dash gauge is confusing and isn't giving you an accurate visual account of the operation. With the aftermarket gauges you get a continuous showing of soot load and or time buildup from regen to regen. A new comer to diesel get's a false perception when the dash gauge goes up and then back to 0, or they've never had a regen because they never seen it come off 0.

 

[DougB]

Somewhere in all this I read the dash gauge shows the soot level, measured in grams. At 47 grams it triggers the regen based on soot. Hence why we see dash gauge at a hair before the 50 mark when it regens.

The PID on the iDash is named DPF RG% which is the percentage to a regen whether it’s spot or time based. It jumps around so much I don’t give it any attention except right after regen to see how well it’s cleaned or when it’s approaching 100 either due to soot or time and about to regen.

Since I’ve been running the Archoil system at the 1oz/10gal ratio, my DPF RG% at the next engine start after a regen is in the single digits. Without Archoil it was somewhere between 11-20 so it’s helping IMO. And my regens take a mile or two less for most Archoil regens. I can still quickly built soot when going 55-65 in brief stints around town but if I can stay at 65-70 it’ll passively regen better than before. I haven’t had weeks with my typical drive pattern to see how it’s helping with miles between regens.

I just had the Y43 recall done so will see if the flash did anything other than add the particulate sensor. I highly doubt it since others haven’t noticed anything. The flash did reset my time and distance between regen parameters I noticed.

 

[AH64ID]

That's why I believe the dash gauge is confusing and isn't giving you an accurate visual account of the operation. With the aftermarket gauges you get a continuous showing of soot load and or time buildup from regen to regen. A new comer to diesel get's a false perception when the dash gauge goes up and then back to 0, or they've never had a regen because they never seen it come off 0.

It’s really not confusing if you don’t try to compare it to the PID or 24 hour based regen. It’s simply showing soot loading and/or active regen.

If the gauge goes up off of 0% then the driving isn’t keeping the DPF clean, simple as that. That’s what the gauge is designed to tell you, nothing more or less.

The other function of that screen is to tell you when you’re in active regen and in that mode the gauge goes away. The gauge doesn’t have to come off zero to regen.

For a functional system that’s all the average driver needs, as most. Less may actually be better depending on the driver.

 

[OLEJOE]

Somewhere in all this I read the dash gauge shows the soot level, measured in grams. At 47 grams it triggers the regen based on soot. Hence why we see dash gauge at a hair before the 50 mark when it regens.

The PID on the iDash is named DPF RG% which is the percentage to a regen whether it’s spot or time based. It jumps around so much I don’t give it any attention except right after regen to see how well it’s cleaned or when it’s approaching 100 either due to soot or time and about to regen.

Since I’ve been running the Archoil system at the 1oz/10gal ratio, my DPF RG% at the next engine start after a regen is in the single digits. Without Archoil it was somewhere between 11-20 so it’s helping IMO. And my regens take a mile or two less for most Archoil regens. I can still quickly built soot when going 55-65 in brief stints around town but if I can stay at 65-70 it’ll passively regen better than before. I haven’t had weeks with my typical drive pattern to see how it’s helping with miles between regens.

I just had the Y43 recall done so will see if the flash did anything other than add the particulate sensor. I highly doubt it since others haven’t noticed anything. The flash did reset my time and distance between regen parameters I noticed.

That’s odd about timer reset after the flash on your truck because mine regened 24 hours after the previous regen and I had the sensor and the flash done just about midway between the two.

 

[AH64ID]

That’s odd about timer reset after the flash on your truck because mine regened 24 hours after the previous regen and I had the sensor and the flash done just about midway between the two.

I think he’s referring to the PID timer and milage count, both of which are known for being inaccurate anyways.

 

[DougB]

I think he’s referring to the PID timer and milage count, both of which are known for being inaccurate anyways.

Correct. The DPF RG% did not reset, just the distance and time between regens counts.

 

[mbarber84]

If the gauge goes up off of 0% then the driving isn’t keeping the DPF clean, simple as that. That’s what the gauge is designed to tell you, nothing more or less.

What do we do when no driving style is sufficiently cleaning the DPF, despite seeing parameters that should be doing so? Constant highway driving should be more than enough.

Asking for a friend….

Drove all day yesterday on the highway for quite a while and didn’t see any real passive regen despite repeatedly seeing the EGT’s well above 660°F for quite a while. Often into the 700’s.

Sometimes that DPF % REG pid goes up like it’s 1% per mile (or more in some cases). If these things are running that dirty there’s got to be something not working correctly under the hood.

 

[AH64ID]

Correct. The DPF RG% did not reset, just the distance and time between regens counts.

I noticed those reset every time you select them as a new PID, almost like they only report (inaccurately) at the completion of each active regen.

What do we do when no driving style is sufficiently cleaning the DPF, despite seeing parameters that should be doing so? Constant highway driving should be more than enough.

And there is the rub, if the system isn’t working properly then that needs fixed. And I’m pretty sure Ram wants this figured out more than we do.

Constant highway driving depends on the speed and load. 18-22 mpg is barely enough to build soot, and VERY VERY slow at cleaning the DPF.

Asking for a friend….

Drove all day yesterday on the highway for quite a while and didn’t see any real passive regen despite repeatedly seeing the EGT’s well above 660°F for quite a while. Often into the 700’s.

Which EGT?

650°-700° on EGT will passively regen, it’s just SLOW.

Sometimes that DPF % REG pid goes up like it’s 1% per mile (or more in some cases). If these things are running that dirty there’s got to be something not working correctly under the hood.

Agree, sometimes I’m amazed at how it jumps and why I think programming is a huge factor.

 

[Brutal_HO]

Just to clarify do realize that the PID shown on the scanning, or any other OBDiI monitor, is not just soot based, right? Your comments about 24 hour regens indicate a misunderstanding of the PID data.

The PID will show the higher of time or soot, so 100% doesn’t mean it was a soot based regen it can also mean it’s a time based regen.

With adequate passive regen to keep the DPF gauge at 0% the PID will bounce around between time at startup and soot, usually no higher than 50%. You can see small amounts of soot be captured and then passively burned as EGT’s increase from load. Once you hit around 12 hours since the last regen time takes over and the PID percentage will increase 0.4% every ~5 min and 45 seconds, or a whole percent every 14 minutes and 24 seconds.

Right now my trucks PID shows 80.0% and the dash DPF gauge is at 0%. It’s been 19 hours on the dash hour meter since my last regen and 80.0% is 19.2 hours, my PID is being driven by time not soot right now.

Now I understand why the PID was never 0 when an active (or passive) regen brought the gauge to 0. Makes perfect sense.

BTW, I notice if you high idle, that counter goes up much faster than normal idle.

 

[AH64ID]

Now I understand why the PID was never 0 when an active (or passive) regen brought the gauge to 0. Makes perfect sense.

BTW, I notice if you high idle, that counter goes up much faster than normal idle.

The lowest I’ve ever seen the PID is 0.4%. That had less than 5 minutes of run time post active regen and was an active regen with 6400D (from what I’ve seen it works well, very well).

The lowest other one I have seen is 2.0%, which was an active regen after towing at 20K GCW for 7 hours with about 10 minutes of runtime before shutdown.

The PID % immediately following an active regen, post shutdown and restart after sitting, is the closest thing to calculated soot/ash load in the DPF I can figure out how to measure.