Any news on a bigger gas engine?

[Epsilon Plus]

TFL found the 7.3 to be much better going up the Ike. Elevation takes its toll on all NA engine, but the 7.3 did better. I live at 8,500 ft and drive the Ike regularly, so their test matters for me.

I have the Ike Gauntlet hoodie that Andre wears and I live at 1,200ft! TFL are my favorite auto media. About as unbiased as you can get, unorthodox testing on everything from Nissan Leaf to 3500 HO, and good production. Traditional auto media (Autoblog, The Drive, Road & Track, C&D, heck even the great Motorweek) is dead to me.

I believe the big avantage the Ford has is the 10 speed and 4.30 gears not the 7.3. I would put money on the 6.2 in the 350 paired with the 10spd and 4.30 would go up the ike gauntlet only a little bit slower than the 7.3 and still beat the ram easily. My guess is that the ram will need big power increases to match the Ford since I bet the 8spd and 4.10s aren't going anywhere.

This is a good point. The 4.30/10-speed combo is most likely the real difference maker. My favorite part about the 7.3 is the simplicity of design that I think will lend to longevity. As far as power, the engines aren't far behind and play in the same power sandbox although the torque graph on the 7.3 is likely a decent bit more broad and flatter. Sometimes we get wrapped up in peak numbers that they put out and forget about where it makes it and for how long. That said, as I mentioned before I don't think the 6.4 is far enough behind the current new players, if at all, to make Stellantis redesign a new big V8 in the midst of a green push. The ZF 8 speed isn't old, is strong for the application, and is well received especially in an era where the consumer seems to notice and gripe about transmissions more than usual.

Right now in the gas HD segment RAM is making their push with interior, price, and the unique PW variant. I don't see them making a costly change anytime soon because I really don't think they have to yet.



Separate rant: Speaking of the TFL guys, one thing that Nathan always brings up is why don't they put a diesel in the PW. I see the same requests on FB. Front. Locker. 850lb/ft of torque, through a torque converter, through 4.10 gears, with the extra diesel engine weight, with a tire up against a rock at full lock = Removing the front locker and having to ditch the winch or make it some weird accessory to fit the diesel intercooler would ruin the soul of the PW. It need's the dual lockers and winch. Without them its just another sticker package faux off roader.

Can we quit asking for it now? It's not going to happen. Massive torque and a factory production front axle/locker combo with that kind of weight don't mix. "But but! The Ford Tremor diesel!" Does it have a front locker? No. Know why? K.... Let's move on.

 

[Squatch]

I have the Ike Gauntlet hoodie that Andre wears and I live at 1,200ft! TFL are my favorite auto media. About as unbiased as you can get, unorthodox testing on everything from Nissan Leaf to 3500 HO, and good production. Traditional auto media (Autoblog, The Drive, Road & Track, C&D, heck even the great Motorweek) is dead to me.



This is a good point. The 4.30/10-speed combo is most likely the real difference maker. My favorite part about the 7.3 is the simplicity of design that I think will lend to longevity. As far as power, the engines aren't far behind and play in the same power sandbox although the torque graph on the 7.3 is likely a decent bit more broad and flatter. Sometimes we get wrapped up in peak numbers that they put out and forget about where it makes it and for how long. That said, as I mentioned before I don't think the 6.4 is far enough behind the current new players, if at all, to make Stellantis redesign a new big V8 in the midst of a green push. The ZF 8 speed isn't old, is strong for the application, and is well received especially in an era where the consumer seems to notice and gripe about transmissions more than usual.

Right now in the gas HD segment RAM is making their push with interior, price, and the unique PW variant. I don't see them making a costly change anytime soon because I really don't think they have to yet.



Separate rant: Speaking of the TFL guys, one thing that Nathan always brings up is why don't they put a diesel in the PW. I see the same requests on FB. Front. Locker. 850lb/ft of torque, through a torque converter, through 4.10 gears, with the extra diesel engine weight, with a tire up against a rock at full lock = Removing the front locker and having to ditch the winch or make it some weird accessory to fit the diesel intercooler would ruin the soul of the PW. It need's the dual lockers and winch. Without them its just another sticker package faux off roader.

Can we quit asking for it now? It's not going to happen. Massive torque and a factory production front axle/locker combo with that kind of weight don't mix. "But but! The Ford Tremor diesel!" Does it have a front locker? No. Know why? K.... Let's move on.

I don’t know man, I’d totally go for an AEV Cummins.

 

[stickshifter]

It would be fun to build a truck to spec. My current dream truck would be a 2500/3500 cummins with carli/thuren setup on 37s. In my recent pursuit of an upgraded Gasser I started test driving diesels and that was a financially poor decision.

There was a guy on the AEV forum or maybe it was Expedition Portal, who had a 2500 Cummins with the G56 manual, on 37s with the AEV lift. His handle was Wapitihunter. You should look for his thread on his build and ownership experience. I think in the end he found the diesel a little nose heavy off road, and thought the auto might be a better choice (additional power, easier off road). That’s what I remember. It was a good read.

 

[AnywhereInTX]

What I liked most about the 7.3L was that it was built like my LS3 lol. Like others said, if Stellantis needed to do anything it would be offer a variant without MDS for fleet sales or us few who favor reliability over fuel savings.

 

[Epsilon Plus]

I sit corrected, the 7.3 has VVT like the 6.6 GM.

 

[abillerbeck]

in comparison the 7.3 is slightly better than the hemi and almost one Liter bigger it averages about 12-13mpg where the hemi averages 16-18mpg.... a simple tune brings the Hemi basically even to the 7.3..... bigger is not always better.... and once again if you need more power than the hemi provides then a diesel just makes more sense expecially considering a diesel gets more than double the life of a gas engine

"a simple tune brings the Hemi basically even to the 7.3..."

Which tuner are you using?

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

"a simple tune brings the Hemi basically even to the 7.3..."

Which tuner are you using?

Any dyno shop can do a good tune... the srt gets 485hp 470tq with just a tune and different intake manifold... so its not hard to get the same power and better millage

 

[nick112288]

Any dyno shop can do a good tune... the srt gets 485hp 470tq with just a tune and different intake manifold... so its not hard to get the same power and better millage

The problem with that thought process is then apply the same thing to the Ford and you're now on top again.

I haven't looked much at 6.4 aftermarket performance but is it there like on the 7.3?

They've already got several big name shops making tunes, headers, cams, even blower kits from Procharger available now and Whipple soon.

What's interesting is before the new 7.3 and GM 6.6 came out the interwebz were speculating that due to the LS DNA the 6.6 aftermarket would take off. Instead you have shops swapping and building 7.3s and can't even find a tuner for the 6.6

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

The problem with that thought process is then apply the same thing to the Ford and you're now on top again.

I haven't looked much at 6.4 aftermarket performance but is it there like on the 7.3?

They've already got several big name shops making tunes, headers, cams, even blower kits from Procharger available now and Whipple soon.

The hemi has been out for much longer of course there is tons if aftermarket support.... my point is the 7.3 is almost 1L more displacement it should be miles ahead of the 6.4 not inches....

 

[nick112288]

The hemi has been out for much longer of course there is tons if aftermarket support.... my point is the 7.3 is almost 1L more displacement it should be miles ahead of the 6.4 not inches....

That logic goes both ways. The Hemi has been out for how long and it's performance capabilities haven't gone further than they have and it seems they also haven't figured out the lifters.

 

[1651Naismith]

That logic goes both ways. The Hemi has been out for how long and it's performance capabilities haven't gone further than they have and it seems they also haven't figured out the lifters.

^^^^This.

Separately, I‘ll leave this here just to spice up the discussion. Just be sure to turn up the volume.

 

[AnywhereInTX]

The 7.3L is basically Ford's take at an GM LS. As long as the ECM can be hacked into, they will be easy to make power with H/C/I work, bolt-ons, and port injection. That is why many people wanted the 7.3L as a crate engine too. Drop in a forged rotating assembly and you will be rivaling LS7 builds.

 

[nick112288]

The 7.3L is basically Ford's take at an GM LS. As long as the ECM can be hacked into, they will be easy to make power with H/C/I work, bolt-ons, and port injection. That is why many people wanted the 7.3L as a crate engine too. Drop in a forged rotating assembly and you will be rivaling LS7 builds.

I believe the limiting factor on the rotating assembly is the hypereutectic pistons.

There are already a couple trucks with blowers pushing 600+ hp to the wheels, one of which is a company truck towing 8k to 10k reliably. There is another shop who took a crate engine and other than fueling upgrades they slapped on 2 turbos and made 1100 hp on the dyno stand.

Granted this is all new territory for the engine, so real long term reliability is still to be tested, but I'd say it handily beats the Hemi in it's current form.

 

[Epsilon Plus]

The 7.3 is a big block though. Make a 6.6L small block and a 6.6L big block, same displacement, with the same cam/compression specs, and tell me why the BB will make more power and have more ceiling.

I know the answer, I'm just testing the waters in here .

 

[Badunit]

The new Ford 7.3 is a monster....no variable valve timing, just good 'ol fashioned pushrod grunt with modern fueling.

The 7.3L teardown I saw on youtube a while back showed variable valve timing (cam phasing). But it does look like a strong engine.

Only time will tell if they got everything right with it or if it has any fatal flaws that result in large repair bills right after the warranty expires. Similarly, I've been trying to figure out if FCA has fixed the lifter problem in the Hemis with their change to better lifters (in 2015?). There are a lot of posts about hemis eating lifters over the years but it is hard to tell how many are of the latest generation. I have the same concerns about the 7.3L and its lifters. Everyone is trying to get the maximum valve lift and it is my opinion they are all pushing the limits of the materials and lubricants, hanging right on the edge of failure.

I've been looking at the Power Wagon and the Tremor, and a plain old F250 FX4. One concern with Ford trucks is I see so many posts about failures with no repair parts available. Last thing I want is to buy a new truck and have it down for weeks or more while waiting for parts.

 

[vipers1]

For what it's worth my local dealer that carries GM ram and Ford said you'll likely be waiting on parts for any of them. I will say that here in Iowa there is significantly more ram truck availability from looking on lots and cruising auto trader, at least ram compared to Ford. I haven't been looking at the Chevy inv. too much.

 

[raven_dt]

The ram has the best power plant out of the 3 after driving them all the hemi is leagues ahead of the others... anything bigger in gas engine is silly that ford 7.3 is pig on fuel just buy a diesel if you need more than 6.4L imho

My 2020 F250 7.3 (3.55) routinely gets 15-15.5mpg in mixed driving w 87 octane.

 

[silver billet]

The 7.3 is a big block though. Make a 6.6L small block and a 6.6L big block, same displacement, with the same cam/compression specs, and tell me why the BB will make more power and have more ceiling.

I know the answer, I'm just testing the waters in here .

Since nobody is answering, care to share your thoughts on why that is?

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

My 2020 F250 7.3 (3.55) routinely gets 15-15.5mpg in mixed driving w 87 octane.

Unloaded i assume that is brutal millage in my mind with the miles i drive that would be a huge problem

 

[raven_dt]

Unloaded i assume that is brutal millage in my mind with the miles i drive that would be a huge problem

Unloaded i assume that is brutal millage in my mind with the miles i drive that would be a huge problem

That is unloaded, 8-9.5mpg towing our 7K TT w 87. Using 91 octane yields marginally better mpg and power. Brutal mpg as compared to what? A CTD? I had a 2017 Tradesman CTD, it was a great engine, coupled to an emission system that I wasn't comfortable dealing with once the warranty ran out. The CTD was overkill for our 6.5K TT (at that time) and the 7.3 is in no way stressed pulling our current TT or our future target 5er: GD 278BH.

I'm a Ram guy. Having owned a 1500 BH 5.7 w 3.92, that was a great truck, just not enough payload and no option to upgrade to a 5th wheel. The 5.7 (no etorque) w the 3.92 and 8HP75 was a great combo. The 8HP75 is an excellent transmission. The 1500 pulled our current TT @ 65mph without issue, just required downshifts to maintain speed. I looked at a 2500 6.4/3.73 Megacab ("current" gen Ram CC is quite a bit smaller than the current Ford and GM CCs) and was underwhelmed coming out of the 5.7/3.92 and ended up buying the 2020 F250 7.3. The 7.3 makes effortless power (no not like a CTD or Powerstroke) and even pulling a 6% grade (section we routinely tow) for 8 miles at 65mph, I rarely see rpms above 3500rpm. The 7.3 is in a class by itself, for now. However, the 101R140 transmission, is completely outclassed by the 8HP75. Slow shifts, extra downshifts, and holding gears too long after downshifting are a few of the issues I've run into in the past 13 months/23K of ownership. The 10R140 programming is a mess for the 7.3 w 3.55. The 7.3/4.30 masks a lot of the issues and the 6.7PS has so much torque that it doesnt matter. As someone said in an earlier post my dream truck would be a 7.3 in a Ram body with a 8HP75 behind it.

So it brings me back to today, the 7.3 is great but I'm considering coming back to Ram for a 2500 6.4/4.10 combo (2021 truck on order). Smaller truck with a smaller engine (possibly thirstier with less power) than the 7.3. But overall the strong points of the SD are (for me): 7.3, interior volume, 34 gal fuel tank, longer wheelbase and 6'9" bed. The Ram has always been a better value proposition over Ford and GM and the overall product I think is superior too. It looks like I have 14-16 weeks to figure it...

BTW, 12qt oil changes (I did all my own maintenance), 2 fuel filters, DEF, fuel additives in the winter and no heat for the 1st 20mins of winters driving also were factors in me converting from diesel to gas. Diesels are awesome, just not what I need for my current DD and towing needs. As I recall, it would take me something like 15 years to recoup the initial and reoccurring costs of a diesel vs a gas truck.