2024 Ram 3500 SRW towing/payload questions (again!)

[Buckrub]

LOL. If arguing over semantics is our biggest issue, we're fine.

But my answer would be.......just because someone wrote a manual and gave a name to an actual phenomenon, that doesn't make that guy's name the 'bestest and onliest' one. Does anyone use CCC or Cargo Carrying Capacity? Yes, everyone I know, and I've been around countless dozens of experienced towers of 5th wheels. A few use "Payload" but they all know it means the same thing, and no one cares which one is used. I assure you it is NOT to try and 'sound smart'. I couldn't do that if I tried, because I don't know diddley squat about trucks. I know a little about towing. So I'm not smart and I don't try to sound smart. I just use both terms to mean the capacity of the truck in all aspects (axles, suspension, etc etc etc) to carry my 5th wheel hitch and all my crap.

Erik, my answer to you is that countless people have pulled a trailer like that one with trucks like yours, for miles and all over hilly America. Many of them don't care one whit about their specs. Others, like me, got just as worried as you are about it before we bought the 5th wheel. In my case, I went and bought a dually before I even had the 5th wheel, simply because I got nervous exactly like you are doing, and I talked to lots of people, and that led me to a Dually. Even that was barely enough IMHO. I never pulled my 5th wheel all over America and thought I had too much truck.

PAYLOAD is diminished by such things as 4WD, hitches etc. I have not seen a single normal 5th wheel setup where the PAYLOAD capacity number that is below the door jamb number is below the actual weight when using a SRW truck. But there may be one, there may be lots, I've just not seen one. Heck many people tow big 5th wheels with 3/4 tons!

My suggestion, worth nothing, is for you to get what you want and then go weigh at a CAT scale (with the app you don't even have to get out of the vehicle) twice, loaded and unloaded, and calculate your situation exactly. But being a few pounds under or over has never stopped anyone I know from towing.

The ONE thing you should understand, and it appears that you do, is that a 5th wheel has "pin weight" that bumper pull campers do not have, and that pin weight is added to the total cargo capacity. My BD5D hitch is very heavy and eats into my payload a lot. That and my overly heavy pin weight don't leave me a lot of room, but I'm not over. Things that help are air bags and bigger wheels/tires on 5th wheel, better H rated American made tires and wheels on camper, independent suspension on camper, etc. Point is, there are things you can do if you are way, way overweight after you buy, but you are doing right thing by considering it first. Trust me, not many 5th wheel buyers even try. RV Salesmen all have the same line "Yep, your 1/2 ton truck will pull anything on this lot".........when it won/t.
Best of luck

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Call me crazy but id have no fear doing that tow with my 2500 the bags would be in use at that point. I have done it when my buddies momentum 16k toy hauler needed to be towed when his ford broke down. 150 miles and no bad feelings towing it.

Take it as you will but anything your 3500 can pull people will try and do it with a 1/2 ton lol. There is no legal issues if you were in an accident even though people seem to believe insurance will drop you or you could be sued thats not true and there is no proof it has ever been done relating directly to being over weight.

 

[Buckrub]

Air bags help with leveling, and I wouldn't tow without them. But they have no impact on towing capacities.

 

[AH64ID]

Outside of the nomenclature, they are functionally the same number. Gross vehicle weight rating - current actual weight = remaining (or overloaded) payload/ccc whether a trailer or a truck.

Using the proper nomenclature will make one more credible, so it makes sense to use the proper terminology.

 

[darrellr]

Using the proper nomenclature will make one more credible, so it makes sense to use the proper terminology.

Many trucks have payload stickers that reference the words CCC represents. Credibility is gained by knowing what you are talking about, which may or may not rely on what you call it. Motorhomes use CCC and are meant to carry people, too. In my state, it is legal for passengers to ride in a 5th wheel. But my RV doesn't have a payload rating, it has a CCC rating. Are people free in that equation? Can I put 100 people in there without fear of going over the CCC rating of the trailer? No, of course not. So arguing over calling it CCC or payload simply makes one look silly, imo. You are no more credible to me having tried to explain the "difference" - which there is none - between payload and CCC.

 

[AH64ID]

Legal to ride in a 5th wheel does not equate to indented by the manufacturer.

I’m willing to be the motor homes with CCC have CCC on the upfit and payload on the chassis mfgr sticker.

There is a difference in the terms even if the number would be the same, just have to be willing to understand it.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Air bags help with leveling, and I wouldn't tow without them. But they have no impact on towing capacities.

No but with a 2500 they help with stability more than anything also add to the Payload cap since the only thing that separates the 2500 from the 3500 is the coils the rest is the same

 

[Buckrub]

No but with a 2500 they help with stability more than anything also add to the Payload cap since the only thing that separates the 2500 from the 3500 is the coils the rest is the same

Every single research I can find says that air bags do NOT add to the Payload. That was my point. There is no towing spec that changes with air bags. I've been wrong before, often, but I don't think I am here.

 

[darrellr]

Legal to ride in a 5th wheel does not equate to indented by the manufacturer.

I’m willing to be the motor homes with CCC have CCC on the upfit and payload on the chassis mfgr sticker.

There is a difference in the terms even if the number would be the same, just have to be willing to understand it.

Can you present any situation where payload and CCC would be a different resultant number for the same vehicle, trailer, or whatever? Are their any legal differences between those ratings (except payload isn't even a legal rating)?

And no, that is not necessarily true about motorhomes. Like semis, they don't have a payload rating, that only really exists on consumer vehicles. They are rated primarily by axle and wheels/tires. Again, the largest motorhomes are built on bus and HD truck chassis, not LD or consumer vehicles, so they are rated differently.

I feel like this is like arguing whether one is wrong or incorrect. ???

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Every single research I can find says that air bags do NOT add to the Payload. That was my point. There is no towing spec that changes with air bags. I've been wrong before, often, but I don't think I am here.

They do add payload IF you get a coach builder to create a new payload tag that is nothing new and has been done many times including once here on this forum one member posted his new payload sticker

 

[Buckrub]

They do add payload IF you get a coach builder to create a new payload tag that is nothing new and has been done many times including once here on this forum one member posted his new payload sticker

OK. I know nothing about 'coaches'. Let me ask another way. Does adding air bags (air shocks) to a towing vehicle, a pickup truck, increase the payload of that vehicle in any way, deployed or not????

 

[darrellr]

They do add payload IF you get a coach builder to create a new payload tag that is nothing new and has been done many times including once here on this forum one member posted his new payload sticker

That upfitter must be able to justify the increase in payload and what they did to strengthen the components. An airbag system doesn't do anything to help make their justification. If an upfitter increased the payload rating ONLY by adding airbags, then I would raise an eyebrow for sure.

 

[Buckrub]

Do Airbags Increase Payload Capacity? (Towing Capacity)

Air bags do not increase the payload weight limit on your vehicle. Your suspension system, axles, and springs can only handle a certain amount of weight

thecampingadvisor.com

air bags ok to add load capacity?

I'd like to get an '08 or '09 F-250 4x4 SWB. The problem is that they are only rated for 2500# payload and the pin weight of my trailer is likely to be 2000#. Once I load the truck realistically, I'll probably have less than 2000# available. Maybe as little as 1500#. Is it ok to add airbags...

www.thedieselstop.com

There are dozens of such articles. I would also think it COULD be argued, if you nitpick enough (LOL), that adding any weight to your truck........air springs, or anything........actually reduces the Payload rating.

 

[Bajaboy7]

"the secret estimate formula is to add approx 22% of the trailer GVWR to the pin weight"

I think the above statement is leading you down the wrong path. Pin weight for good trailer handling characteristics should be 20 to 25% of the trailer weight. Henceforth MAX trailer GVWR times .25 equals your approx. MAX pin weight. That is the number you're looking for.

I am in the same boat as you with a 42.5' toyhauler and CCLB SRW. The truck tows it like a champ but I have never weighed it to get pin weight.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

That upfitter must be able to justify the increase in payload and what they did to strengthen the components. An airbag system doesn't do anything to help make their justification. If an upfitter increased the payload rating ONLY by adding airbags, then I would raise an eyebrow for sure.

The rest of the components are rated higher than needed the ONLY weak link is the coils. The axles are the same on a 3500 the frame is the same other than some brackets, the tires are the same on a SRW the brakes are the same.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Do Airbags Increase Payload Capacity? (Towing Capacity)

Air bags do not increase the payload weight limit on your vehicle. Your suspension system, axles, and springs can only handle a certain amount of weight

thecampingadvisor.com

air bags ok to add load capacity?

I'd like to get an '08 or '09 F-250 4x4 SWB. The problem is that they are only rated for 2500# payload and the pin weight of my trailer is likely to be 2000#. Once I load the truck realistically, I'll probably have less than 2000# available. Maybe as little as 1500#. Is it ok to add airbags...

www.thedieselstop.com

There are dozens of such articles. I would also think it COULD be argued, if you nitpick enough (LOL), that adding any weight to your truck........air springs, or anything........actually reduces the Payload rating.

Generic articles mean nothing. I have already talked to upfitters and they have no issue upping my payload number but i dont bother since payload means nothing other than registration weight and axle capacities are the important numbers

 

[AH64ID]

Generic articles mean nothing. I have already talked to upfitters and they have no issue upping my payload number but i dont bother since payload means nothing other than registration weight and axle capacities are the important numbers

South of your border anyone can update their numbers if they modify the vehicle. It’s not a big deal when you understand the components and ratings.

 

[darrellr]

This page has a lot of information that applies to modifiers:

Technical Resources | NTEA

Access NTEA’s technical resources for commercial vehicles: compliance guides, vehicle engineering tools, training modules, and member-exclusive

www.ntea.com

There are differences between those accepting an incomplete vehicle for final delivery vs taking a previously completed and certified vehicle and making alterations after the fact. Not being a member, I can only guess they have a lot more information available to explain the requirements.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

It

This page has a lot of information that applies to modifiers:

Technical Resources | NTEA

Access NTEA’s technical resources for commercial vehicles: compliance guides, vehicle engineering tools, training modules, and member-exclusive

www.ntea.com

There are differences between those accepting an incomplete vehicle for final delivery vs taking a previously completed and certified vehicle and making alterations after the fact. Not being a member, I can only guess they have a lot more information available to explain the requirements.

Its really not that hard of a concept to figure out component strength with simple engineering math so without the specs then can still figure it out

 

[darrellr]

It

Its really not that hard of a concept to figure out component strength with simple engineering math so without the specs then can still figure it out

Agreed, that is why they get paid. But it is not without legal liability and if they modified a weight and that new rating was incorrect, they still face the consequences. Again, as I noted earlier, payload is not a legal rating of anything and is not used by DoT. But they typically increase payload by increasing the GVWR and that, like you said, it still going to be determined by components like wheels/tires, frame, brakes, and suspension components that attach the axles to the frames (I am confident air bags, even on semi-trucks, do not go into the gvwr or gcvwr rating, but not 100% certain).