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2021 6.7 Tuner

J

Jakester69

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Happy 2023!
Im a new Cummins owner and wanted to get opinions on best programmers/tuners for the 2021 6.7. Thank you for your time and knowledge.
 
It seems the encryption used on 2022 trucks has been hard for the flash tune developers to overcome. There is likely only 1 company that makes the software package for these engines, and everyone else just re-sells the same software with their logo on it. So find the tune that you can get serviced locally (like someone supports), has decent customer service and a reasonable price. Otherwise there is no difference between companies tunes (expect their output claims). re-flash tune https://duramaxtuner.com/diesel-tuning/cummins-tuner/6-7l.html

I see piggy backs as well. Which will work about as well without having to crack the engines encryption.

The tuners nearly always inflate their real world gains for marketing to sell to the highest number crowed. Be wary, they do this by tacking on random driveline loss and messing with the calibrations they used to compensate for having low output er I mean weather ;-)

Anyway they're probably good for something like 80+/-hp at the crank in the real world, as measured by the dragstrip, with a very narrow powerband. So basically 15%-20% gain while not towing. Nothing to sneeze at but it won't transform you world either. For towing the differences are minimal to keep the EGT's in check. Going from 370hp-450hp given the weight of these trucks just isn't enough of a bump to transform them. My stock BMW has a power to weight ratio of 9.3lbs per hp for a 0-60 of 4.4 seconds. A 450hp Cummins especially with its very narrow power band has a power to weight ratio of 20.2 lbs per hp. So about half the power given the weight. Which would make it tuned probably around 8.x to 60. quicker but hardly fast. Your going to need around 700-800hp to get these things to pull sub 6 second 0-60 times. I think my stock HO is good for about a 9 second 0-60.

If you do decide to go the illegal modifications route, (removing diesel emissions components has always been illegal) it won't add that much additional power. Removing the DOC/DPF is usually good for around another 10-20rwhp peak HP. Not so much for the flow increase, but the lower EGT numbers allow you to safely push more fuel. The SCR has almost no impact on performance. Deleting doesn't do much for performance unless you go big turbo, then you get more lag which makes daily driving harder. But reducing back pressure and EGT temps allows for more power gains. But when you begin to run double the power things are going to break. The biggest problems with diesels is their low volumetric effiecnecy, because most aren't designed to rev. Unless your Audi or BMW that make diesels with 5-6K readlines https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a5865/le-mans-diesel-winners/

I've learned local dealers will not take a truck modified for off road use only on trade. Its a 60K fine per vehicle they sell with emissions deletes. So this means you'd be able to only sell it private party or return it to stock. Not sure if spending all of that money is worth it for the minimal additional gains, unless you go big turbo. Its also a 60K fine for any shop that performs these modifications per vehicle.
 
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thecastle said:
It seems the encryption used on 2022 trucks has been hard for the flash tune developers to overcome. There is likely only 1 company that makes the software package for these engines, and everyone else just re-sells the same software with their logo on it. So find the tune that you can get serviced locally (like someone supports), has decent customer service and a reasonable price. Otherwise there is no difference between companies tunes (expect their output claims). re-flash tune https://duramaxtuner.com/diesel-tuning/cummins-tuner/6-7l.html

I see piggy backs as well. Which will work about as well without having to crack the engines encryption.

The tuners nearly always inflate their real world gains for marketing to sell to the highest number crowed. Be wary, they do this by tacking on random driveline loss and messing with the calibrations they used to compensate for having low output er I mean weather ;-)

Anyway they're probably good for something like 80+/-hp at the crank in the real world, as measured by the dragstrip, with a very narrow powerband. So basically 15%-20% gain while not towing. Nothing to sneeze at but it won't transform you world either. For towing the differences are minimal to keep the EGT's in check. Going from 370hp-450hp given the weight of these trucks just isn't enough of a bump to transform them. My stock BMW has a power to weight ratio of 9.3lbs per hp for a 0-60 of 4.4 seconds. A 450hp Cummins especially with its very narrow power band has a power to weight ratio of 20.2 lbs per hp. So about half the power given the weight. Which would make it tuned probably around 8.x to 60. quicker but hardly fast. Your going to need around 700-800hp to get these things to pull sub 6 second 0-60 times. I think my stock HO is good for about a 9 second 0-60.

If you do decide to go the illegal modifications route, (removing diesel emissions components has always been illegal) it won't add that much additional power. Removing the DOC/DPF is usually good for around another 10-20rwhp peak HP. Not so much for the flow increase, but the lower EGT numbers allow you to safely push more fuel. The SCR has almost no impact on performance. Deleting doesn't do much for performance unless you go big turbo, then you get more lag which makes daily driving harder. But reducing back pressure and EGT temps allows for more power gains. But when you begin to run double the power things are going to break. The biggest problems with diesels is their low volumetric effiecnecy, because most aren't designed to rev. Unless your Audi or BMW that make diesels with 5-6K readlines https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a5865/le-mans-diesel-winners/

I've learned local dealers will not take a truck modified for off road use only on trade. Its a 60K fine per vehicle they sell with emissions deletes. So this means you'd be able to only sell it private party or return it to stock. Not sure if spending all of that money is worth it for the minimal additional gains, unless you go big turbo. Its also a 60K fine for any shop that performs these modifications per vehicle.
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You are so far off in left field its quite comical.

As far as Deletes go you make much more power and can run much better mods such as a non VGT turbo, it makes a cleaner and better running diesel that will last so much longer
 
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You have proof of your claims? That's what I thought didn't see any. Also you didn't mention what you disagreed with. The deletes allow/enhace exactly what I said, turbo upgrades. But by themselves (deletes) aren't worth a whole lot. maybe read what I wrote.

He never said in this thread he was tuned, but you would know that if you had read the thread. He just asked for opinions on tuners and tunes. My opinion is they all come from the same source and didn't vary much except in what the tuner reseller shop claims. Tuners shops aren't software engineers and don't write code for the cars computers. That takes specialized skills that these shops don't have folks on staff to handle. They all buy a software kit and base tune from the 1 or two companies that have development staffs capable of writing custom code and tools to allow the "tuner shops" to make small tweaks to maps.

Which is why I don't recommend a tune based on a tuners claims as they ultimately all come from the same source. The rest is just marketing. So stick with a tune you can get local support, at a good price and have good support should the installer fail.

Name one tuner shop with software engineers working for them, and the ability to reverse engineer the software encryption that comes standard on the engines, and the money to buy AWS time to crack it. IOr the ability to trace out the circuits to show where bypasses can be made. Where do you think the software is coming from? Not a wrench turner. Think writing custom code can be done by a mom and pop 5 person shop?
 
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thecastle said:
You have proof of your claims? That's what I thought didn't see any. He never said in this thread he was tuned, but you would know that if you had read the thread. He just asked for opinions on tuners and tunes. My opinion is they all come from the same source and didn't vary much except in what the tuner reseller shop claims. Tuners shops aren't software engineers and don't write code for the cars computers. That takes specialized skills that these shops don't have folks on staff to handle. They all buy a software kit and base tune from the 1 or two companies that have development staffs capable of writing custom code and tools to allow the "tuner shops" to make small tweaks to maps.

Which is why I don't recommend a tune based on a tuners claims as they ultimately all come from the same source. The rest is just marketing. So stick with a tune you can get local support, at a good price and have good support should the installer fail.

Name one tuner shopw with software engineers working for them, and the ability to reverse engineer the software encryption that comes standard on the engines, and the money to buy AWS time to crack it. Or the ability to trace out the circuits to show where bypasses can be made. Where do you think the software is coming from? Not a wrench turner.
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Sorry i thought this was still on the other page about the fuel pump recall but you are still wrong on the tuning they dont come from the same source unless you are dealing with box store tuners But even some of them have their own tuning not prewritten tunes. Many of the custom tunes you get custom written tunes not garbage unless you are talking about companys like H&S or bullydog or optimal welding

There is no need to buy local with all these actual tuning companys like calibrated power who actually writes and dynos their own tunes and can be used with EZ-Lynk so no need to see a shop just pick up the phone or email them they can send you tunes and the device you load the tunes and they can tweak the tunes as needed and send you the new tune on the cloud based system in seconds…. What you are talking about with these mom and pop dyno shops is almost non existent now

A couple of days ago you said you are new to trucks and could hardly figure out your levelling kit situation now you know everything about tuning trucks?
 
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I'm new to owning a "pickup" consumer/commuter truck, but I've owned commercial cab and chassis (45xx/55xx) trucks for years, and many diesels. I've just never been into cosmetic only mods like most lifts/leveling, and never had an interest in them. So when I purchased a used RAM with those cosmetic mods I wanted to get rid of them, as they made the tuck worse for my needs, mainly towing, and the ride at 80+ mph bouncy. I don't waste my money or time researching mods that are purely for looks or worse reduce capability. Its just not my cup of tea to make my truck into a costume to look like I have a tough off roader, that I can't / won't actually ever take off road as I don't want my paint scratched. So I was asking for help/insight from the folks who would know about leveling kits so I could get it removed. Personally I think leveling is a waste of money as its just for looks. Want a used level kit?

If you do a thought experiment about what it actually takes to modify the engine code..... It starts with someone who can crack the encryption the manufacturer has put in place to protect their code from tampering/reverse engineering/copying and modification. Such a company would have to have deep pockets to build a GPU data center, or rent one from AWS to hash out / crack the encyption and have the expertise to crack encryption (not a common skill among mechanics). Once the encryption is cracked, do a rom dump (mechanics can do this?), perform a disassembly on the code, reverse engineer the code (they won't get the code comments and have to figure out how it works). Then write modifications to the manufacturers code to allow "maps" and other common modifications like disabling check engine lights, torque / speed limits, emissions disabling, and anything else you can think off. Then they write a software package to make it simple for a "tuner" to change certain engine parameters to their taste, along with some pre-defined base maps to help the tuner get a product out as soon as possible. Next they have to perform validation testing to verify they can deploy the new code and it works. So they would have to have an engineer on staff who understands the specific engine to write base maps for distribution. Next, this company would write encryption tools and etc. so that other tuners / consumers can't steal their work.

Does this sound like something a mechanic who became a "tuner" would be able to do themselves, while trying to make money on working on customers vehicles? Most people don't realize the level of expertise in Computer Engineering/Software engineering it would take to reverse engineer and modify a manufactures software. Finally, there is the expense.... If you have coders making 150K/yr (google pays an average of 300K), decryption servers (10's of thousands plus expertise on how to build one) and etc. You'd want to sell this package to as many "tuners" as possible along with licensing fee's to distribute the cost. (I own an IT company) it might take you a couple of 100K to pull this off or someone who works for free. Plus you have to provide support to the tuners. So you'd want to sell this to as many "tuner" companies as possible to distribute the cost of you investment over as many sales as possible. The good thing about this is it can be very profitable. Software has essentially 0 manufacturing cost, so selling 30K units costs very little for distribution, its all up front cost.

As for tunes, its generally the same on nearly all platforms, VW, BMW, Ford, GM, etc. I'm just commenting that in general there are very few companies out there with the ability to modify manufactures engine code. Sometimes like on BMW there is an opensource effort..... But in general the market is always the same case on every vehicle I've owned. There is generally 1 sometimes 2 companies that have the expertise to understand the code in the engine computer. They "the software development company for tunes" then create a base map and software tools to allow "tuner". The "tuners" add their marketing and maybe tweak a few of the maps. But since generally all tuner shops are working from the same software package, tools, and base maps, what a "tuner" can get out of an engine will always be very similar. The rest is marketing. Why is the Cummins market different than any other engine market in terms of tunes? Its not likely that it is.
 
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