What's new
By:
Ram Heavy Duty Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

CP4 to CP-ISB21S3 (revised CP3) change for 2021 6.7L Diesel Trucks -- Merged Threads

I don't feel this is the time or place to buy a truck with what all is going on. Here in southern AZ I have not seen a dealer with more than 2 or 3 trucks on the lot.
 
I'm gonna sit it out and wait for FCA to hopefully make it right. My thoughts are, the 21's, while looking like a CP3, aren't exactly a CP3, so they have no track record. And with the current inventory, I'd be hard pressed to find a truck exactly like mine. As I've said before, I don't want another truck, just mine to be reliable. Come on @RamCares, give us something !!!!
 
Wayne007 said:
It. My thoughts are, the 21's, while looking like a CP3, aren't exactly a CP3, so they have no track record.
Click to expand...
Well, we know they do not suffer from the same roller design defect and fuel flow issue (no separation). We also don't have (to my knowledge) failures of them reported, and they've now been out for a while - long enough that failures would have been reported in the CP4. From everything I've read, it's a CP3 essentially clocked to a higher pressure. So my thought process was that getting back what I paid for my '20 and eliminating some known design issues was a better situation even if I had to pay a little more for the '21 (Laramie vs Bighorn) and the new pump hasn't been out as along.

The equation is different for everyone and our tolerance for this type of failure is pretty low. The one thing that is not different for everyone is that FCA should never have put us in this position to begin with. Given how I think owners have been treated so far, rest assured I'll be looking harder at Ford and Chevy for my next truck - and will not be considering an FCA vehicle for a secondary vehicle (which we'll be replacing in 18 months). FCA has lost my confidence and forced me to make the best of a bad situation.
 
Wmhjr said:
Well, we know they do not suffer from the same roller design defect and fuel flow issue (no separation). We also don't have (to my knowledge) failures of them reported, and they've now been out for a while - long enough that failures would have been reported in the CP4. From everything I've read, it's a CP3 essentially clocked to a higher pressure. So my thought process was that getting back what I paid for my '20 and eliminating some known design issues was a better situation even if I had to pay a little more for the '21 (Laramie vs Bighorn) and the new pump hasn't been out as along.

The equation is different for everyone and our tolerance for this type of failure is pretty low. The one thing that is not different for everyone is that FCA should never have put us in this position to begin with. Given how I think owners have been treated so far, rest assured I'll be looking harder at Ford and Chevy for my next truck - and will not be considering an FCA vehicle for a secondary vehicle (which we'll be replacing in 18 months). FCA has lost my confidence and forced me to make the best of a bad situation.
Click to expand...
I don't know why you guys keep saying that you're going to go to Ford. They're still running a cp4. I think that pretty well makes no sense to me. I owned an lml duramax years ago so I've been over and through the cp4 thing. The cp4 is frustrating but I knew that when I bought my truck. I factored 2700 for a swap into what I was paying. If the warranty is getting close and still no service bulletin, I'll just do the swap.
 
For the kagillionth time, the issue that makes the RAM CP4 worse is the over-driven nature and far, far higher (anecdotally through the net/forums) failure rate likely due to it.

It's a bad design for everyone. It's a very bad design for RAM.
 
Epsilon Plus said:
For the kagillionth time, the issue that makes the RAM CP4 worse is the over-driven nature and far, far higher (anecdotally through the net/forums) failure rate likely due to it.

It's a bad design for everyone. It's a very bad design for RAM.
Click to expand...
how is it “overdriven” ram runs it at a much lower pressure than ford also the ford failures are much more frequent local ford dealer techs i know say they see them in for pumps at least one a month and the 4 local ram dealers have not seen one fail yet
 
It was established pages back, through tear down videos like S&S that the pump is driven at 1.5x normal. Maybe it was on Cummins forum too, I forget.
 
2020HOBigBooty said:
I don't know why you guys keep saying that you're going to go to Ford. They're still running a cp4. I think that pretty well makes no sense to me. I owned an lml duramax years ago so I've been over and through the cp4 thing. The cp4 is frustrating but I knew that when I bought my truck. I factored 2700 for a swap into what I was paying. If the warranty is getting close and still no service bulletin, I'll just do the swap.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? When did I say I "was going to Ford"? Beyond that, the CP4 issue is not the same for them as mentioned by previous posts..

And beyond that, we have ALREADY discussed AT LENGTH the fact that factoring in the $3k for the swap does not even come close to leveling out the issue. First of all, if you do it proactively, you just killed your warranty. If you DON'T do it proactively and it fails, you're down 3 months and then have to do the swap. Unless you're going to pay out of your pocket for all the other components such as injectors, etc. And beyond THAT, if you're pulling livestock, how exactly does that resolve the sitting on the side of the road with a gooseneck trailer full of livestock in the middle of nowhere, potentially 15 hours from home?
 
H3LZSN1P3R said:
how is it “overdriven” ram runs it at a much lower pressure than ford also the ford failures are much more frequent local ford dealer techs i know say they see them in for pumps at least one a month and the 4 local ram dealers have not seen one fail yet
Click to expand...
That is very interesting in that it is completely the opposite in this area. My dealer is relatively small, and has had 2 failures. Keep in mind that many of their HD sales are from distant areas, so it's only local customers being serviced by them typically. The Ford dealership I have contacts with is a much larger dealership that handles a ton of fleet and commercial sales - probably 100 times larger than my RAM dealer. They claim to have less impact from the CP4. But who really knows since there is no concrete data to read. Like Epsilon said, it's a bad design for everyone, but a worse design for RAM owners due to their specific modification.
 
I don't know what is so hard to understand about this.

PLEASE stick to the technical, TSB, and/or recall aspects of this issue.

hdrams.com

CP4 to CP-ISB21S3 (revised CP3) change for 2021 6.7L Diesel Trucks -- Merged Threads

So for those that haven’t bought yet, get the 2021. The 2021 (verified just a little while ago) has the CP3. So no need to deal with a recall etc. [MOD EDIT: Any complaints or rants about the CP4 may be messaged in one of the other three or four threads along those same lines or the following...
hdrams.com hdrams.com

Enough with the bickering and insult hurling already.
 
Last edited:
@Wmhjr I completely agree. People often point to the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act (noted in this post as MM) as "I can do anything I want to my truck and they can't deny me warranty" which is so obviously untrue it's surprising it's got to be addressed.

This is a bit of an aside but worth noting for those who are interested in potentially doing this swap or others. The MM was put into law to prevent companies from taking advantage of consumers by creating loopholes for warranty items like declining warranty if a consumer got an oil change at a non dealer location, or replaced brake pads with a different brand. It was not put into place so you could toss a large turbo and do burn outs then claim that the failed trans should be taken care of within warranty.

The MM basically prevents a manufacture from declining warranty if a part was replaced with a non-brand part, or oil changes were done by ones sell or at a quick oil change shop, so long as the type of oil met basic standards, same goes for brake pads, air cleaners, etc.

Another point more on topic is that the new "CP3" is going to be almost identical to the previous CP3 pump. It differs in name to protect FCA from lawsuits. Non-oem CP3s can support in the thousands of HP so you can't tell me that somehow after 2 years of failed attempts FCA went back to Bosch, had them design some completely new CP3 that utilizes the external part of the CP3 and somehow different internals? What sense does that make? Why not just retrofit the CP4 with new internals then? They renamed the CP3 to something else, added in some arbitrary change that sat well with the lawyers and that way they can protect themselves from and potential lawsuits in the event that someone had a blown CP4 that went out and spent money, or somehow incurred massive cost due to something like a horse trailer needing to be moved by another company.

Could I be wrong on the CP3 name change? Sure. If I am, why would FCA not be super transparent in the updates they have made from prior generations? Why would there not be more discussions on all the added benefits from said change? One day someone is gonna upgrade their 21s CP3 with a larger one, and when that happens I pray they send it to S&S or someone for a breakdown on the differences. I'd be more than happy to eat crow on this, but I'd also be willing to bet someone in person a grand that there isn't any real difference between the pumps, at least nothing that would actually be worth a new identifier.

Now, before an admin comes in and yells at all of us for getting off topic, as if a forum is meant for conversation and not strictly news, I'll end this and let's see what FCA has to say in the next month. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that they are "doing the right thing" if only to avoid future lawsuits.
 
Wmhjr said:
What are you talking about? When did I say I "was going to Ford"? Beyond that, the CP4 issue is not the same for them as mentioned by previous posts..

And beyond that, we have ALREADY discussed AT LENGTH the fact that factoring in the $3k for the swap does not even come close to leveling out the issue. First of all, if you do it proactively, you just killed your warranty. If you DON'T do it proactively and it fails, you're down 3 months and then have to do the swap. Unless you're going to pay out of your pocket for all the other components such as injectors, etc. And beyond THAT, if you're pulling livestock, how exactly does that resolve the sitting on the side of the road with a gooseneck trailer full of livestock in the middle of nowhere, potentially 15 hours from home?
Click to expand...
"rest assured I'll be looking harder at Ford and Chevy for my next truck"

Pretty sure you stated that you were going to look harder at a Ford or Chevy. Hence my statement that it made no sense to switch from a cp4 truck because of the cp4 to another cp4 truck because your current truck has a cp4... ‍♂️

I understand the frustration. I lost a cp4 in my work 2015 duramax in Texas on my way back to California. We were hauling a 40' horse trailer with horses in it. Picked up some bad fuel on the Texas boarder and less than 100 miles down the road she blew. Had to arrange stables, a rental truck etc. Not fun. Still not deterring me from running my truck cross county. That's what insurance and road side assistance are for. I also have vacation insurance through good Sam that would help in that situation.
 
Last edited:
What can actually be done to put pressure on RAM? We see recalls from other manufacturer for other defects that can leave you in a difficult/dangerous situation. But nothing from RAM yet.
Beside the two random messages from @RamCares, it doesn't seems like something is going to happen.

Do we need a class action? Is that what it will come to?
 
MikeXM said:
What can actually be done to put pressure on RAM? We see recalls from other manufacturer for other defects that can leave you in a difficult/dangerous situation. But nothing from RAM yet.
Beside the two random messages from @RamCares, it doesn't seems like something is going to happen.

Do we need a class action? Is that what it will come to?
Click to expand...
Word on the street is that we may hear something this month. There is a warranty bulletin posted from NHTSA that someone posted on another group/forum (https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2020/MC-10184746-9999.pdf), I assume it's legit only due to the fact of the URL where it's hosted. I'm not familiar with the fast feedback program but my guess is they may issue a recall post this. @RamCares has already made comments about a service solution, however they have not yet responded. My guess, and it's strictly a guess, is if they are going to announce something it will be June/July timeframe.

In terms of putting pressure, I think the only thing you can do would be to file complaints with RAM and on NHTSA by reporting a problem. Beyond that we are at the mercy of FCA and their decided timelines. My hope is they are doing the work to build stock and get a recall plan in place, so that when the recall is announced they will have the stock to actually do something. Keep in mind that COVID has absolutely wrecked global shipping and manufacturing systems so that could be a large part to the delay.
 
UglyViking said:
Word on the street is that we may hear something this month. There is a warranty bulletin posted from NHTSA that someone posted on another group/forum (https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2020/MC-10184746-9999.pdf), I assume it's legit only due to the fact of the URL where it's hosted. I'm not familiar with the fast feedback program but my guess is they may issue a recall post this. @RamCares has already made comments about a service solution, however they have not yet responded. My guess, and it's strictly a guess, is if they are going to announce something it will be June/July timeframe.

In terms of putting pressure, I think the only thing you can do would be to file complaints with RAM and on NHTSA by reporting a problem. Beyond that we are at the mercy of FCA and their decided timelines. My hope is they are doing the work to build stock and get a recall plan in place, so that when the recall is announced they will have the stock to actually do something. Keep in mind that COVID has absolutely wrecked global shipping and manufacturing systems so that could be a large part to the delay.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the update.
I don't know what's taking them so long. But I still wanna believe...
 
I just cant believe another group would post something before this one. What's going on here?
 
Xflight29 said:
I just cant believe another group would post something before this one. What's going on here?
Click to expand...
A: That was posted here a long time ago.
B: It's from last fall
C: It's from FCA not the NHTSA - the link is simply to where it's posted on the NHTSA website.
D-Z: Be patient. The fast feedback period just ended yesterday and presumably something will be announced this summer.
 
camojimmy said:
I agree, pretty much the same thing for me. I looked in alberta and everything is selling for 5K off MSRP. Didn't make much sense.

Hopefully a repair recall announcement comes very soon and replacement with the ISB21.
Click to expand...
That or a factory recall conversion kit FCA is using on failed CP4 vehicles...At least maybe I could keep my warranty.
Xflight29 said:
I don't feel this is the time or place to buy a truck with what all is going on. Here in southern AZ I have not seen a dealer with more than 2 or 3 trucks on the lot.
Click to expand...
The dealer in Wickenburg had 6-10 of them on the lot when I passed by Monday morning.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top