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CP4 to CP-ISB21S3 (revised CP3) change for 2021 6.7L Diesel Trucks -- Merged Threads

And again, advocating for totally throwing a 5yr 100k mile warranty for that one component also isn't an acceptable solution.

As for the other brands, they are not overclocking the CP4. The failures are not as frequent.

My option was to spend a ton of extra money and trade in a 6 month old truck on a new one. Not everyone will be able to do that. Nobody should have to make a choice between rolling the dice about the fuel pump and rolling the dice on the tranny, etc for warranty.

That being said, I think the "head and shoulders above" thing is also an opinion. There are things about the competition I like also.

What I'm really advocating for is for RAM/FCA to step up to the plate - otherwise there are plenty of owners out there who do share your opinion and may well walk away. Beyond that, I am completely positive that there are potential owners that have decided to go elsewhere. One major factor here is that we factually know that FCA has in a number of occasions attempted to deflect blame for this on "bad fuel", etc and has acted in bad faith. So, there is not only a pump issue there, but also a support issue. Clearly COVID has potentially impacted this as well, but the fact that failed trucks are taking 3 months to fix and FCA does nothing to help with a "suitable" replacement in the meantime makes the situation worse. What I'll also add is that while everyone has a right to their own opinion, yours certainly does not help provide influence to get the people responsible for the issue to properly deal with the issue. You are advocating for people to pull $3k out of their pockets to fix a problem that should not exist and will void their warranty. Bluntly - that is not helpful.
 
well good luck guys hope you dont expierence issues and if you do hope its easy fixing
 
mra400ex said:
It is not overclocked and a $300 kit takes car of glitter if it fails. Not that they are in the same denial on the CP4
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I get it and agree. However, overclocking/turning up the pump doesnt really effect the core of the problem IMO based on why they are failing.

Fact is, there are Ford failures too.
 
leeroy300 said:
well good luck guys hope you dont expierence issues and if you do hope its easy fixing
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Good luck with the Ford if you go that route. They are very nice trucks. Do the CP4 bypass kit and make sure to get one that has already had the Transmission recall done.

As for those staying with Ram. My thoughts: They have had the new pump in the 21s for over 6 months now. We haven't heard of any problems, so hopefully, they have confidence in it. My hope is they are building inventory in the new pump to handle a recall. It would be senseless to announce a recall before they have enough inventory to do the large number of replacements they will need to perform. As mentioned before I am an optimist, for now at least. I hope the rumor is true that we find out in July.
 
gimmie11s said:
Go back and re-read my posts... I am not advocating for any CP4. It is trash.

I am advocating for a CP3 retro on a CP4 truck because the rest of the truck is head and shoulders above Ford and GM.

Heres a hint... the other brands are still using the CP4, so what are your options?
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Not true, GM switched to Denso pumps when they released the L5P back in 2017. Ford is still using the CP4, that is true, although as has been noted it's not overdriven the way the Ram is. If you think that makes it worse or not is up to you. At least from what I've seen on the Ram vs Ford groups the Ram guys are far far more concerned about pump failure and I saw far more notes about blown CP4s on the Ram groups than the Ford groups. Take that for what you will but I think it's important to note.

The biggest downside to the Ford is that from what I've read you can't swap a CP3 due to size differences in the pump and mounting location. The Ford does have a disaster prevention kit available for under $400 compared to the CP3 swap which costs around $3,000 plus install.

gimmie11s said:
I get it and agree. However, overclocking/turning up the pump doesnt really effect the core of the problem IMO based on why they are failing.

Fact is, there are Ford failures too.
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I don't think this is quite accurate. I don't see how it can't haven an effect but really no one except Ford/FCA/Bosch know the exact failure rate, so we can't really compare apples to apples with the exception of what we observe on forums/groups.

There are Ford failures for sure, but they seem far less common than the Ram ones, at least from my observations.
 
Brewbud said:
Good luck with the Ford if you go that route. They are very nice trucks. Do the CP4 bypass kit and make sure to get one that has already had the Transmission recall done.

As for those staying with Ram. My thoughts: They have had the new pump in the 21s for over 6 months now. We haven't heard of any problems, so hopefully, they have confidence in it. My hope is they are building inventory in the new pump to handle a recall. It would be senseless to announce a recall before they have enough inventory to do the large number of replacements they will need to perform. As mentioned before I am an optimist, for now at least. I hope the rumor is true that we find out in July.
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I agree with this. I am keeping my fingers crossed that they will do the right thing, if only so they can avoid a lawsuit. Also as much as it pains me to be patient it's important to remember that we are also dealing with a global pandemic which means parts and even raw materials are extremely hard to get and very expensive at the moment. For anyone not directly involved in manufacturing, or who doesn't have contacts that are, a quick trip down to your local big box store to look at lumbar costs should make that more than obvious.
 
UglyViking said:
Not true, GM switched to Denso pumps when they released the L5P back in 2017. Ford is still using the CP4, that is true, although as has been noted it's not overdriven the way the Ram is. If you think that makes it worse or not is up to you. At least from what I've seen on the Ram vs Ford groups the Ram guys are far far more concerned about pump failure and I saw far more notes about blown CP4s on the Ram groups than the Ford groups. Take that for what you will but I think it's important to note.

The biggest downside to the Ford is that from what I've read you can't swap a CP3 due to size differences in the pump and mounting location. The Ford does have a disaster prevention kit available for under $400 compared to the CP3 swap which costs around $3,000 plus install.


I don't think this is quite accurate. I don't see how it can't haven an effect but really no one except Ford/FCA/Bosch know the exact failure rate, so we can't really compare apples to apples with the exception of what we observe on forums/groups.

There are Ford failures for sure, but they seem far less common than the Ram ones, at least from my observations.
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All good points, and i agree, other than the turned up pump deal. From what ive read, many of the failures are related to the plunger bucket turning in it's bore because there is nothing from a design standpoint keeping that from happening. When it spins, the roller on the bottom of the plunger bucket becomes perpendicular with the cam that drives the plungers and the pump is gone. This really wont have much to do with "overclocking" the pump. There is an inherent design flaw with the unit.

4:32 mark explains it perfectly below.

 
gimmie11s said:
All good points, and i agree, other than the turned up pump deal. From what ive read, many of the failures are related to the plunger bucket turning in it's bore because there is nothing from a design standpoint keeping that from happening. When it spins, the roller on the bottom of the plunger bucket becomes perpendicular with the cam that drives the plungers and the pump is gone. This really wont have much to do with "overclocking" the pump. There is an inherent design flaw with the unit.

4:32 mark explains it perfectly below.
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Yes the design does have an inherent flaw, no argument from me. That said, why does the plunger/roller pivot in the first place? The only good reason I can think of is lack of lubricity. That plunger has a roller, the roller wants to roll, generally speaking things will continue with the path of least resistance. The only reason for it to pivot would be that it's getting friction which causes it to start to flatten then pivot and it kills itself.

The only reason I can see for lack of lubrication is that the pump is running so fast that the fuel isn't able to keep it cool or keep enough fuel going through. I have no data to back this thinking up but again, why is it happening more on the Ram than the Ford? The major difference between the two is A) the Ram pump is overdriven by something like 50% and B) the Ram pump is using smaller pistons which means less fuel. Higher speeds, less lubrication is a recipe for disaster.

My point being here is that outside of the problem with the piston not being keyed, there is something else that is happening upstream of that to cause that failure and since we have the Ford as a pretty direct comparison we can only compare and contrast.

One more item of note. From my understanding the disaster prevention kit for the Ford looks like it's also got a CARB number, at least from a quick google search I didn't see anything pop up with voiding warranty with said kit, additionally I saw a few notes that Ford basically treats anything CARB compliant as an ok addition. If that is the case it really makes me wish I had gone with the Ford. I could be $400 in and done. I guess there is still time with what they are buying these trucks for right now.
 
UglyViking said:
Yes the design does have an inherent flaw, no argument from me. That said, why does the plunger/roller pivot in the first place? The only good reason I can think of is lack of lubricity. That plunger has a roller, the roller wants to roll, generally speaking things will continue with the path of least resistance. The only reason for it to pivot would be that it's getting friction which causes it to start to flatten then pivot and it kills itself.

The only reason I can see for lack of lubrication is that the pump is running so fast that the fuel isn't able to keep it cool or keep enough fuel going through. I have no data to back this thinking up but again, why is it happening more on the Ram than the Ford? The major difference between the two is A) the Ram pump is overdriven by something like 50% and B) the Ram pump is using smaller pistons which means less fuel. Higher speeds, less lubrication is a recipe for disaster.

My point being here is that outside of the problem with the piston not being keyed, there is something else that is happening upstream of that to cause that failure and since we have the Ford as a pretty direct comparison we can only compare and contrast.

One more item of note. From my understanding the disaster prevention kit for the Ford looks like it's also got a CARB number, at least from a quick google search I didn't see anything pop up with voiding warranty with said kit, additionally I saw a few notes that Ford basically treats anything CARB compliant as an ok addition. If that is the case it really makes me wish I had gone with the Ford. I could be $400 in and done. I guess there is still time with what they are buying these trucks for right now.
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The Ford bypass kit does not prevent a failure. It just makes the failure less expensive. You still have the possibility of being left stranded on the side of the road. Several have said reliability is the reason for switching brands. At least the CP3 conversion for the Ram can restore reliability.
 
Brewbud said:
The Ford bypass kit does not prevent a failure. It just makes the failure less expensive. You still have the possibility of being left stranded on the side of the road. Several have said reliability is the reason for switching brands. At least the CP3 conversion for the Ram can restore reliability.
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Completely agree. My point here was that if the Ford is more reliable from the get go, then at least this part prevents a massive expense if a failure occurs. Obviously I'd much rather have the CP3 than the CP4 but sadly I wasn't well aware of these issues until I made the buy, otherwise I might have gone a different way, or at least an older way. End of the day, and counter to my previous sarcastic ending, I own this truck now and if it costs me 3k out of pocket for a reliable pump in a bulletproof engine so be it. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed I don't have to pay.
 
Brewbud said:
The Ford bypass kit does not prevent a failure. It just makes the failure less expensive. You still have the possibility of being left stranded on the side of the road. Several have said reliability is the reason for switching brands. At least the CP3 conversion for the Ram can restore reliability.
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It is a dilemma for sure:

Ford: The $400 kit protects the rest of the motor but you can still get stranded - though it seems less likely
Ram: Nothing protects the motor but you can pay $3000 and void your warranty but eliminate the CP4 risk. But if you don't - then it's a lot more than $400

For me, neither solution seems awesome - though I'd say your time to repair would definitely be faster with the Ford and the $400 kit - so long as they can start getting fuel pumps.
 
No good answers at this point is true. Hopefully FCA comes up with something soon that is satisfactory to most 19/20 buyers.
 
Wmhjr said:
It is a dilemma for sure:

Ford: The $400 kit protects the rest of the motor but you can still get stranded - though it seems less likely
Ram: Nothing protects the motor but you can pay $3000 and void your warranty but eliminate the CP4 risk. But if you don't - then it's a lot more than $400

For me, neither solution seems awesome - though I'd say your time to repair would definitely be faster with the Ford and the $400 kit - so long as they can start getting fuel pumps.
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For me, at least the high cost of repairs will be on Ram for the next 90,000 miles. So the bigger concern for me is loss of power leading to an accident or being left stranded. As my warranty ends I will go to the CP3 or sell the beast if Ram has not stepped up.
 
leeroy300 said:
l feel as a previous 2014 Ram owner and going to a 2020 l would have gotten at least as reliable major components and NOT something that was already proven by the other companies not be be up to Ram durability that we were mislead so they would save a few $$
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You could not have been that disappointed seeing you stayed with the same manufacture, even if you would have taken a lost.
 
Brewbud said:
For me, at least the high cost of repairs will be on Ram for the next 90,000 miles. So the bigger concern for me is loss of power leading to an accident or being left stranded. As my warranty ends I will go to the CP3 or sell the beast if Ram has not stepped up.
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Yes, the was my plan B. If we had not been able to work out a deal on trading the '20 for a '21 then we were going to keep using Hotshots on every fuel, and keep our fingers crossed. Then, just as we approached the magic 100k, we were going to do the CP3. I believe that the '19-20s will take a hit on the resale market in 5 years if FCA doesn't take care of their customers.

Our calculation was this. We assumed that FCA may well do nothing, so we figured we'd need to throw another $3k into the truck for the CP3. So we subtracted that $3k from the cash difference between their trade value for the '20 and the cost of the '21. We also needed (due to availability) to move from a Bighorn to a Laramie, so it pretty much ended up that we "upgraded" for about the MSRP difference between the two trucks, having been able to drive the '20 since October. We lost out on having put on Xpel paint protection and Fluidfilm rust coating.

Given the fact that the '20 was already at the dealer 3 times for repairs, and that the transmission did something funky that they never figured out yet, throwing the warranty away was not an option at this time
 
Without having to scroll through the whole thread...is there an announcement coming about these pumps? Truck has been a gem for 37k kilometers so far. First check engine light came on 2 weeks ago. Computer wanted a software upgrade. Also swapped the bed step bracket at the same time. Other than that, amazing.
 
T
Dwilly said:
Without having to scroll through the whole thread...is there an announcement coming about these pumps? Truck has been a gem for 37k kilometers so far. First check engine light came on 2 weeks ago. Computer wanted a software upgrade. Also swapped the bed step bracket at the same time. Other than that, amazing.
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Several months ago @RamCares said something is coming. We have no idea what is coming. They are rumors we will hear something in July. Somebody posted up some screenshots from some messages that indicated that. You are now up to date LOL Fingers crossed.
 
I just called a local dealer and he told me that they have not seen any CP4 failures at his dealership. But he also said that about a month ago they got a bulletin from FCA that said if they had any trucks with the CP4 that they couldn't be sold until they were fixed. They didn't have any so he didn't know exactly what the fix was. He said until I get a letter from FCA with a recall OR it breaks, I have to sit tight and wait. To me that's encouraging as it tells me something's coming. I absolutely love the truck so I'll wait. I also called Ram customer service but he couldn't shed any light either. I kinda think they're gearing up to have enough parts to do it right.....at least I hope so.
 
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