CP4 Changes - to large dimple symmetrical cam version

[cobradvm]

Is it possible to get them to replace the pump with the new design pre-emptively? Probably not - I'm guessing that all the new pumps are being used to repair the old busted pumps.

If that was an option, I might do that if I still had the asymmetrical design.

 

[Deleted member 80]

I am hoping for the best, but please bear in mind there is ZERO evidence that the change in pump cam profile was done for, or has any bearing whatsoever on the longevity of the CP4.

 

[Brewbud]

It would be interesting to know if it is certain "dot patterns" that have the issues. My understanding is the dots indicate the date code and manufacture site for the pump (except for the new large dot up top which indicates the new design). Was there a batch from one site that is bad?

 

[UglyViking]

I am hoping for the best, but please bear in mind there is ZERO evidence that the change in pump cam profile was done for, or has any bearing whatsoever on the longevity of the CP4.

I think that's a fair point, that said I don't know why they would make this update unless they were trying to address the issues that the CP4 has been having. Why else would they make the change?

It would be interesting to know if it is certain "dot patterns" that have the issues. My understanding is the dots indicate the date code and manufacture site for the pump (except for the new large dot up top which indicates the new design). Was there a batch from one site that is bad?

I don't think that is the case. If it were an issue of a bad batch or isolated to a certain build location then they would likely have issued a recall of some sort on those. It would have been much cheaper for FCA to call out a certain pump batch and just replace the CP4 itself then replace the whole fuel system or the entire engine. Outside that it's my guess (based off no data at all) that the revised pump design has been created to address these issues. Until the pumps have been around for a while it's hard to know if these changes actually solve the issue or not. My guess, based off the data I've read around online and what I've heard from a few people, is that these changes should indeed "solve" the issue.

 

[Epsilon Plus]

I went to the dealer today to have them listen for gear whine and got to talking to the diesel service advisor about the CP4. He says his dad has a 5th Gen asymmetrical 6.7 so he's aware of the fervor. He tells me that he's had 3 in for CP4 replacement (Northwest Phoenix dealer) and all have been under 2,000 miles. Last one had an $18,000 repair bill. He said he's seen both the asymmetrical and symmetrical fail. He also said he heard a rumor that RAM was going to try and go back to CP3 and that the dealers don't know if a recall is coming or not but gave the impression that the issue is in the works at the higher levels.

Some of what he said sounded like the same half-informed stuff I see on forums and FB and I'm reticent to just take what he says as gospel, but part of me thinks, well, the dude is a RAM service advisor at a major city dealer that sees a lot of volume so if any of us know anything it would be him right?

I still don't buy that a CP3 change will happen and I'd put the chance at recall at less than 25%, but that's just me. I'll stay informed on the issue because it interests and may affect me one day, but I'm Ivan Drago about it at this point. If it dies, it dies.

 

[UglyViking]

@Epsilon Plus I appreciate the fact that you're not just taking his advice as gospel. That said, it does seem that Bosch is still making the CP3, otherwise these swap kits would be impossible to create. So with that said I could see Ram switching back over, although that may be just hopeful of me. If you look at how far Ram has come in the last number of years in terms of build quality and getting the number of accolades they have received, they are pushing hard to be the second dog, and wouldn't be surprised if they had first in their sites as I assume all manufactures do. If they were to swap back to the CP3 and switch those out think of how much they could potentially save. Yes the cost of the pump isn't cheap, but for every fuel system they replace, or every whole engine think of how many CP3s they could swap out at FCA cost scale.

I'd imagine the CP4 swap was made due to bean counters, I wouldn't be all that surprised to see them make another swap due to cost, especially since Bosch seems to be quite backordered on these things. There is only so many trucks FCA has to be willing to buy back due to this I'd imagine that is a cost as well.

They may also be looking at that recent win from the Ford 6.0 series lawsuits. That has to scare them at least a little.

Time will tell but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[Brewbud]

I think that's a fair point, that said I don't know why they would make this update unless they were trying to address the issues that the CP4 has been having. Why else would they make the change?



I don't think that is the case. If it were an issue of a bad batch or isolated to a certain build location then they would likely have issued a recall of some sort on those. It would have been much cheaper for FCA to call out a certain pump batch and just replace the CP4 itself then replace the whole fuel system or the entire engine. Outside that it's my guess (based off no data at all) that the revised pump design has been created to address these issues. Until the pumps have been around for a while it's hard to know if these changes actually solve the issue or not. My guess, based off the data I've read around online and what I've heard from a few people, is that these changes should indeed "solve" the issue.

I would like to know if there is a trend. We hear about the failures here on the forums and it may seem like a bigger problem than it really is. It might not be to that level yet in FCA's estimation. Regardless, I also don't think they would do even a limited recall until the pipeline is full of replacement parts anyway. Look at all the other recalls out there among automakers. It seems like it takes a lot to happen before they will pony up with a recall. I also agree we don't know if the changes they made are going to work. We don't really even know if the failures are driving the change to the newer pump design.

 

[cobradvm]

Does anyone know if the CP4 failures are only on the 2500? Are the 3500 HO diesels affected?

 

[Epsilon Plus]

Does anyone know if the CP4 failures are only on the 2500? Are the 3500 HO diesels affected?

Same pump. They are taking the hit too.

It's said the Ford's have a CP4 as well but I wonder if it is a different mechanical revision. They run higher pressure so the gear drive on it is likely different but I wonder about the twisting lifter and all that. I did a search through F series forums and didn't find near the complaints on their trucks that the RAMs have.

I haven't read about one failure of the new dimple pump. Only people saying service advisors have told them they have seen it like dude told me today. I still haven't seen anyone post that theirs was new style, but many early fail posters are first timers just coming to vent and probably don't even know about the dimple. If the dimple fixes the problem, I reckon' we'll become the bastard years that people tell others to avoid in the future. "Hey, looking at a HD RAM what ya think!" "Good trucks but stay away from the 19-20s" just like people would say about the 6.0 Ford.

I just don't see them doing a recall. It would admit failure and cost them since the Morgan & Morgan class action hounds are already loose on this topic on the other MFGs. $20k repair bills for a certain percentage of trucks isn't ideal, but it can't possibly hurt their billion dollar pocket books. Besides, they print money with these trucks. $20k is likely what they've got into it. You paid $60k. They fix it for $20k and they're still up.

 

[Cumminsleadfoot]

My build date is 6-19 I have several dimples, but they are on the upper part of the pump, not lower. Wierd.

 

[UglyViking]

My build date is 6-19 I have several dimples, but they are on the upper part of the pump, not lower. Wierd.

Not weird, this is expected. They didn't make this change till halfway through the 2020s from my understanding. All 2019s should be using the asymmetrical lobe design.

 

[Brewbud]

My build date is 6-19 I have several dimples, but they are on the upper part of the pump, not lower. Wierd.

Yes, that is odd. I would have expected all those dimples to be on the lower part of the pump. Mine are all on the lower part with nothing on the upper part.

 

[flan]

We throw out numbers like 10k 20k dollars to fix. In all honesty what’s the actual cost? If those parts cost that much, the rest of the truck sure can’t cost much to build lol. I think it probably costs whoever 2k for parts, then maybe some labor. Yea I know what the invoices say.....

 

[BighornHDRam]

We throw out numbers like 10k 20k dollars to fix. In all honesty what’s the actual cost? If those parts cost that much, the rest of the truck sure can’t cost much to build lol. I think it probably costs whoever 2k for parts, then maybe some labor. Yea I know what the invoices say.....

The reason it's in excessive of 20k to fix is just 1 fuel injector 68444791AA is $2,475.00 each retail x 6 is $14,850, and a 68526414AA Symetrical Pump Kit Injector Supply is around $3K but can't find any info on the new pump just going on what the dealer told me on mine. Plus all fuel lines, new tank and any other parts plus labor to do the work.

2020 Ram 2500 Big Horn Crew Cab 6.7L Turbo I6 Diesel 4WD Injector. Fuel - 68444791AA | Mopar Parts Overstock, Lakeland FL

Injector. Fuel. 2020 Ram 2500 Big Horn Crew Cab 6.7L Turbo I6 Diesel 4WD. Genuine Ram Part - 68444791AA. Ships from Mopar Parts Overstock, Lakeland FL

www.moparpartsoverstock.com

 

[flan]

I get that’s what we Pay. But the parts can’t be that expensive or our trucks would be a lot more expensive then they are.

 

[AKDoug]

List price is stupid on injectors. The only reason they are currently that expensive is scarcity of the parts. I bet by this time next year they will be in the $500 range of the current OEM 2018 injectors, especially since the core value on them is a measly $125 on some sites..

 

[Nick]

Same here. I'm just going to switch from the crappy howes to the hot shot to get maximum lubricity

I have used what you call the crappy Howes for over most of my trucking career . I never had a filter jell or become water contaminated . Millions of miles . Still use it and it still works !

 

[KiowaWarrior RAM]

Anyone out there using Lucas in Fuel tanks for Lubrication and Boost Cetane? I also use Xp3 fuel for lubrication and combat gel/crystallization.

Bought my RAM in Sept 20... Date Built 9/20 I didn't find out about this after the fact and the dealer never mentioned this problem. If you ask me it's kinda ****ty way to do business.

 

[MikeXM]

Anyone out there using Lucas in Fuel tanks for Lubrication and Boost Cetane? I also use Xp3 fuel for lubrication and combat gel/crystallization.

Bought my RAM in Sept 20... Date Built 9/20 I didn't find out about this after the fact and the dealer never mentioned this problem. If you ask me it's kinda ****ty way to do business.

You have the updated pump, that is a good start.
Below is a thread about fuel additives:

CP4 Changes - additives discussion

I need that syringe. When I ordered, did I miss it? Amazon item... See post #76.

hdrams.com

 

[Deleted member 80]

Anyone out there using Lucas in Fuel tanks for Lubrication and Boost Cetane? I also use Xp3 fuel for lubrication and combat gel/crystallization.

Bought my RAM in Sept 20... Date Built 9/20 I didn't find out about this after the fact and the dealer never mentioned this problem. If you ask me it's kinda ****ty way to do business.

It's a crappy situation for dealers, too. I don't recall Ford dealers warning people that 6.0s were coming apart faster than they could pull cabs.