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Talk me out of my suspension plans

jsalbre

jsalbre

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I’m getting ready to do suspension, wheels, and tires on my ‘23 Rebel Hemi.

After long calls with all the big suspension companies and a few shops I’ve decided to go Thuren for the suspension, and I’m going to go with their 2” front lift coils, the .5” long travel rear coil kit, and the front and rear track bars.

I’m strongly leaning towards the Fox 2.5 DSC shocks, but I’m struggling to not get the Fox 2.0 (RR front, IFP rear), because those are almost $2400 cheaper. I know the DSC is going to be better, but is it enough for the cost difference? Talk me out of the 2.5s and into the 2.0s, or convince me that I’m going to regret not getting the 2.5s.

One of the big reasons for the upgrade is to help with the beating that my wife’s back takes off-road, and the beating the whole truck takes over speed bumps and the like.

I drive the truck about 20k miles a year. I work from home, so none of that is commuting. About 50% of my miles are towing a travel trailer. Of the remaining miles more than half (so 25+% of total) are off-road. Mostly rough rutted and washboard Forest Service or BLM roads, sometimes at higher speeds because we’re doing long miles in the middle of nowhere. Some more technical trails, though I don’t really rock crawl anymore. Think like the green to blue trails around Moab. The leftover miles are “normal” road miles.

Edit to add:
I’m going to run 37x12.5R17 on AEV Katlas. I’m leaning towards the MT Baja Boss A/T, but those are significantly heavier (80lbs each) than most tires in the same size, and are load range D, which I’m wondering if that would make them really “flexy” for towing. I’d have loved to get the Falken Wildpeak AT3w, but they’ve replaced those with the AT4w and everything I’ve read says they aren’t nearly as good in the wet and snow. Whatever I get needs to be 3PMSF rated, as I do drive in the snow a fair bit.

The suspension is the main purpose of this post, but suggestions on the tire side are welcome as well.
 
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air pressure, air pressure, air pressure…..

For a better ride that is what you should start with. Currently running nitto 35 inch tires, 45 frt, 38 rear. when towing heavy 45 front 55 rear.

I do have the thuren 1.5 front springs (air ride rear) I went with bilstein shocks as we do not do much if any off road driving which is where the fix options should start to shine. While IMO the springs do ride better, the comfort ride comes from getting the tires to appropriate pressure for load instead of Max pressure.

Hope that helps.
 
I’ll second air pressure, and next a thuren front anti-sway bar.

I do a lot of similar USFS road miles and wouldn’t call my ride harsh at all for any rig, let alone a 3500. 50+ mph is uncommon with stock sized tires and stock shocks. That’s airing down to the proper pressure for the weight on the roads, as well as running the thuren anti-away bar up front. The sway bar made a huge difference off pavement and nothing negative on the pavement. I also have boogie bumps, which took away any harsh engagement in the stock bump stops.

As far as tires, 37’s aren’t what I’d run for 50% miles especially with gas engine. I’d also want more sidewalk than 17’s will give you. There is a noticeable difference in stock sizes towing between 18” and 20” wheels, so smaller diameter wheels and larger tires doesn’t seem too appealing.

As far as the shocks go, I wanted to run Fox shocks until reading plenty of rebuild required threads on fairly low mileage shocks. They are too much money for how quick they need a rebuild, which makes them undesirable regardless of how well they work for my style driving. Is that something you have considered?


So I guess it should be fairly easy to talk you out of your suspension plans when the mods don’t match the 50% towing miles.

Does your truck have 18’s or 20’s?

Thuren front anti-sway bar
Thuren 2” front coils
Thuren long travel springs w/ airbags
Track bars F&R
Bilstien 5160’s
285/75R18 or 35x12.50R18 or 35x12.50R20

Lets look at the psi required for the RAWR of 6,040lbs (Is that correct? Ram charts only showed a Diesel Rebel)

275/70R18: 60 psi
285/60R20: 65 psi
285/75R18: 60 psi
35x12.50R18: 55 psi
35x12.50R20: 65 psi
37x12.50R17: 45 psi

Easy to see which tires will be the most stable towing.

So, lots less cash, much better ride than stock, and better towing performance that the full meal deal for as much as you tow.
 
I prefer Bilstein 5100 series over the fox as they don't seem to have to be rebuilt all the time. I got special tuned Bilsteins for $1000 for all 4 with the 2.6 inch shock body. I love how they ride and are about 1/3 the price of a equivalent FOx shock.
 
Going to be following this. At some point I'll do front springs and some kind of remote reservoir shock. I've rebuilt them before and I don't mind it, but would prefer not to. Any reason for not considering Kings? Any remote reservoir shock is going to perform better than a regular one. I think I would compare that to the DSC first. 2.0 remote reservoir is an option. Also Thuren front sway for the win in all driving or towing conditions.
 
I won't try to talk you out of it. See my signature.

The lower rate springs will ride better unloaded and towing, but when you hook up the TT you will see more suspension compression (rear) and lift (front) for the same reason. I don't know how much you're towing, but my TT is about 1700 pounds on the hitch. With stock springs and weight distribution I lost about 1.5" of rake when hooked up. With my thuren coils and carli add-a-packs it's more like 2.25". I still have plenty of travel so I don't mind, but headlights and aesthetics could possibly be a thing. I'm already where I want to be with weight distribution - trying to "correct" for that much would put undue strain on things.

I stuck with 5100 shocks (vs thuren's 2.0 IFP tuned foxes) because I want the added stiffness for towing.

The ride difference is noticeable and worth it even on stock size tires, highway driving, etc. The specifics depend on the size of your TT and how much compromise you want to make for one purpose vs another.
 
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I should have said Bilstein 5160 shocks which have the remote reservoir to compare to fox 2.5. The 5100 would be a little less money.
 
ammdrew said:
air pressure, air pressure, air pressure…..

For a better ride that is what you should start with. Currently running nitto 35 inch tires, 45 frt, 38 rear. when towing heavy 45 front 55 rear.

I do have the thuren 1.5 front springs (air ride rear) I went with bilstein shocks as we do not do much if any off road driving which is where the fix options should start to shine. While IMO the springs do ride better, the comfort ride comes from getting the tires to appropriate pressure for load instead of Max pressure.

Hope that helps.
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I appreciate the suggestion, but my air pressure is definitely good (for my current tires). I'm running 41f/35r (45f/50r towing) in the stock 285/60R20 Duratracs. This is the pressure the the load inflation charts say to use for the weight I've scaled the truck at, and I've verified with the chalk test. I adjusted TPMS and lowered tire pressures within hours of picking up the truck from the dealership. There's just not enough sidewall. I can't air down much lower than about 22 PSI before the wheel gets way too close to the ground.

AH64ID said:
I’ll second air pressure, and next a thuren front anti-sway bar.

I do a lot of similar USFS road miles and wouldn’t call my ride harsh at all for any rig, let alone a 3500. 50+ mph is uncommon with stock sized tires and stock shocks. That’s airing down to the proper pressure for the weight on the roads, as well as running the thuren anti-away bar up front. The sway bar made a huge difference off pavement and nothing negative on the pavement. I also have boogie bumps, which took away any harsh engagement in the stock bump stops.

As far as tires, 37’s aren’t what I’d run for 50% miles especially with gas engine. I’d also want more sidewalk than 17’s will give you. There is a noticeable difference in stock sizes towing between 18” and 20” wheels, so smaller diameter wheels and larger tires doesn’t seem too appealing.

As far as the shocks go, I wanted to run Fox shocks until reading plenty of rebuild required threads on fairly low mileage shocks. They are too much money for how quick they need a rebuild, which makes them undesirable regardless of how well they work for my style driving. Is that something you have considered?


So I guess it should be fairly easy to talk you out of your suspension plans when the mods don’t match the 50% towing miles.

Does your truck have 18’s or 20’s?

Thuren front anti-sway bar
Thuren 2” front coils
Thuren long travel springs w/ airbags
Track bars F&R
Bilstien 5160’s
285/75R18 or 35x12.50R18 or 35x12.50R20

Lots less cash, much better ride than stock, and better towing performance for as much as you tow.
Click to expand...

As mentioned above, my air pressures are good.

I also run no front sway bar at all. The removal of the sway bar did make a huge difference to the ride quality. I don't load tall or heavy and I've noticed no concerning change in handling characteristics. The stock radius arms provide enough resistance to roll that I don't think it's necessary unless you're hauling a truck camper or something similar. The PW may be a different story with its extra joint in the front suspension.

I'm not too concerned about going to 37s vs 35s with the gasser, but I've not decided for sure yet which I'll go with. I've got 4.10 gears, and 37s on 4.10s is within 20 RPM at 60 mph in 6th gear of running the stock tire size on 3.73. There are plenty of people towing much heavier than me on 3.73s and not complaining. Obviously I'll have an impact from increased weight, but there's not a huge difference between 35s and 37s there. I assume you mean "less sidewall than 17's will give"? I'd possibly go 18s, but there aren't any available that I think look very good.

I did say 50% towing, but I guess what I didn't mention is that towing is largely to get our trailer somewhere to camp and go take the truck off-road.

Rebuilding is something I've considered. I can handle rebuilds when needed. Since I work from home and have another car having the truck down for a couple days while the work gets done isn't a big deal for me. Also, having had experience with Fox shocks before, it's not like they suddenly get "bad" and need a rebuild, they just slowly get a little bit softer.

As mentioned above I have 20s stock. There's not near enough sidewall when running 20" wheels. 20s are definitely not in my future.

I did forget to mention that I'lll add airbags if I'm not happy with the suspension droop hooked up (i.e., any reverse rake).

Soapy said:
I prefer Bilstein 5100 series over the fox as they don't seem to have to be rebuilt all the time. I got special tuned Bilsteins for $1000 for all 4 with the 2.6 inch shock body. I love how they ride and are about 1/3 the price of a equivalent FOx shock.
Click to expand...

The 5100 has 46mm body, which is only 1.8". That's smaller than any of the Fox offerings.
 
I did forget to add that one of the main reasons I’m leaning towards the DSC shocks is adjustability. Being able to go from stiff for towing, to soft for off-road, and in between for day to day sounds really nice.
 
jsalbre said:
I did forget to add that one of the main reasons I’m leaning towards the DSC shocks is adjustability. Being able to go from stiff for towing, to soft for off-road, and in between for day to day sounds really nice.
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One of the reasons I will be following, lol. I'm not helping very well to change your mind.....The Carli E-Venture is just too dang expensive, and too tall.
 
Pearce said:
One of the reasons I will be following, lol. I'm not helping very well to change your mind.....The Carli E-Venture is just too dang expensive, and too tall.
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Carli's E-venture is way too expensive, and too tall, but aside from that when I called Carli they listened to what I want to do and then just told me to buy their 2.5" Backcountry level or 3" Pintop lift kit with no explanation about why I should close one or the other, or why he'd recommend two very different systems. I didn't get a warm fuzzy from them at all. I called Thuren next and Zeb spent 45+ minutes on the phone with me explaining every item he thought I should choose and why, and answering any questions I had in detail. He did recommend the Fox 2.5s, but said he understands that they're really expensive and I'd get an appreciable percentage of the improvement from the 2.0s, just with shorter life and no adjustability. He did specifically say he wouldn't recommend the 5100s unless I was just looking for a minor improvement over stock.

Oh, and to answer your previous question about why I didn't consider the Kings, it's because they have no adjustability, there's a multi-month wait to get them built and shipped, and they're too specifically tunes for my taste. I don't have a purpose built race truck that never changes load, and they want front and rear axle weights and a bunch of other detail in order to tune them. I drive in far too many different terrains and with far too varying a load-out to want something that inflexible.
 
Jsalbre I corrected the shocks to 5160s not 5100 before you replied. The 5160s are roughly a 2.6 inch body.
 
Despite the title of the thread I’m not sure you want talked out of your decisions :cool:
 
AH64ID said:
Despite the title of the thread I’m not sure you want talked out of your decisions :cool:
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Well... part of me does, but the other part doesn't. The part that likes not sleeping on the couch wants to be talked out of it. The other part reminds me that my wife hasn't asked what this stuff costs.

I also think of what else I could buy with $2k, but at the same time I'm a big fan of buy once cry once.
 
jsalbre said:
Well... part of me does, but the other part doesn't. The part that likes not sleeping on the couch wants to be talked out of it. The other part reminds me that my wife hasn't asked what this stuff costs.

I also think of what else I could buy with $2k, but at the same time I'm a big fan of buy once cry once.
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Again, how much trailer are we towing here?

Not that I want to share my honey hole, but my stuff mostly came from the CJC open box inventory (and there might be a discount code you can use on top of that, pm me, hint hint.)

My carli add-a-packs were unclaimed lost freight on ebay, and my springs were on facebook marketplace 1 week used (guy got them to clear larger tires, they still rubbed, he went bigger.) There are deals out there. I know where a set of Thuren front (3" hemi, 2" cummins) springs are for $150 shipped on marketplace. DDP has some open box thuren spec fox ifp front shocks at the moment.

If you know your end game and can wait, do it bit by bit, deals show up. Makes it easier to sneak into the finances as "maintenance" as well.
 
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johnmyster said:
Again, how much trailer are we towing here?

Not that I want to share my honey hole, but my stuff mostly came from the CJC open box inventory (and there might be a discount code you can use on top of that, pm me, hint hint.)

My carli add-a-packs were unclaimed lost freight on ebay, and my springs were on facebook marketplace 1 week used (guy got them to clear larger tires, they still rubbed, he went bigger.) There are deals out there. I know where a set of Thuren front (3" hemi, 2" cummins) springs are for $150 shipped on marketplace. DDP has some open box thuren spec fox ifp front shocks at the moment.

If you know your end game and can wait, do it bit by bit, deals show up. Makes it easier to sneak into the finances as "maintenance" as well.
Click to expand...
Current trailer is 7800# with about 1300# tongue weight (poor trailer design). I'm likely replacing it soon with a trailer that will be about 10k with approximately the same tongue weight. I use WDH and if needed I'll be adding air bags.

I've actually seen a few sets of 3" coils out there, but that's higher than I want to go.

I'm kind of in a bit of a hurry, as I have some trips coming up and I need to get all my work done (self install) before I run out of free time for the summer.
 
Our truck is about 40% towing mileage - TT is about 10k with 1700 on the hitch. I'm not complaining about the tongue weight (I think it makes it tow better) but I have a 3500 and it means I'm limited on how soft I can go on rear springs. In your case a willingness to add airbags opens the door for more compliant springs. Even better if you add an air compressor and can air up for your 50% tow mileage. WDH will help keep the front axle in check.

Your 1300 pound hitch weight is adding about 1800 to the rear axle and subtracting 500 from the front. Perhaps WDH brings you back to +1500 rear, -250 front, plus whatever gear/people ride in the truck.

The question then becomes shocks. How much do you tune the shocks for ride unloaded vs towing? Personally I err towards towing stability - controlling truck/trailer seesaw bobbing - which largely relies on the rear shocks and to a small degree the fronts. For me that means 5100 unless I'm willing to spend tuned 2.5" money. I have considered picking up a set of the Thuren tuned Fox 2.0 IFP for the front, but would stick with 5100 or RS9000xl for the rear based on my bias.

I think I have $200 in a set of four thuren recommended 5100s and I'm pretty happy with them on road/towing. I'd rather spend cheap and have too stiff of a shock and upgrade later, than spend more, have them be too soft, be miserable towing, and have to then spend more later. Shocks for these trucks are pretty common across platforms and I've been able to audition low dollar units and sell them pretty easily.
 
johnmyster said:
Our truck is about 40% towing mileage - TT is about 10k with 1700 on the hitch. I'm not complaining about the tongue weight (I think it makes it tow better) but I have a 3500 and it means I'm limited on how soft I can go on rear springs. In your case a willingness to add airbags opens the door for more compliant springs. Even better if you add an air compressor and can air up for your 50% tow mileage. WDH will help keep the front axle in check.

Your 1300 pound hitch weight is adding about 1800 to the rear axle and subtracting 500 from the front. Perhaps WDH brings you back to +1500 rear, -250 front, plus whatever gear/people ride in the truck.

The question then becomes shocks. How much do you tune the shocks for ride unloaded vs towing? Personally I err towards towing stability - controlling truck/trailer seesaw bobbing - which largely relies on the rear shocks and to a small degree the fronts. For me that means 5100 unless I'm willing to spend tuned 2.5" money. I have considered picking up a set of the Thuren tuned Fox 2.0 IFP for the front, but would stick with 5100 or RS9000xl for the rear based on my bias.

I think I have $200 in a set of four thuren recommended 5100s and I'm pretty happy with them on road/towing. I'd rather spend cheap and have too stiff of a shock and upgrade later, than spend more, have them be too soft, be miserable towing, and have to then spend more later. Shocks for these trucks are pretty common across platforms and I've been able to audition low dollar units and sell them pretty easily.
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Pretty good guesses on the towing weights. Without WDH I'm pulling 480# off of the front and with WDH it's 160#. Small enough of a number to be effectively unnoticeable. Honestly at this point I could probably run no WDH at all, but I like the belt-and-suspenders approach. I'm a big fan of running over the scales to make adjustments, and I have a big spreadsheet that gives me a ton of extrapolation from those scale tickets. I do have on board air and if I go air bags I'll install a controller in the cab to make it easy to adjust.

With the DSC shocks I can largely tune for load myself, as they have both high and low speed adjusters. That's the biggest reason pushing me towards them. The extra size is just bonus for those days when I do 400-500 miles of dirt (surprisingly fairly frequently). Cranking the adjusters all the way up will result in shocks far stiffer than the factory ones, so towing stability is not a concern. Cranking them all the way down will make the truck just slightly stiffer for high speed bumps than stock while still doing a better job soaking up and controlling the big stuff. From my research most people are towing with the rears set just above mid-range and the fronts just below, but I'd of course spend time testing and choosing the best settings for my situation.

I appreciate the discussion here and everyone's inputs. It helped me think through some details that I hadn't. The short of it is after lots more reading and discussions here and elsewhere (and with my household financial advisor/sore-back-haver) I've decided to go with the 2.5 DSC shocks. Absolute worst case if they're way far from what I want I can send them to Accutune for modification, or hell, buy the parts and tools and learn to tweak them myself. Since they're completely serviceable and rebuildable they should last for as long as I have the truck.
 
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