Hellcat Oil pump addressing Hemi tick lifter issues low idle problem

[Redfour5]

This guy

with an 11 year background as a high level tech having gone to their "University" thinks he has figured it out. It's not pressure as such that is the problem, but VOLUME at low pressure that is a primary cause. This is the video that explains his thesis, watch at 10 minutes to cut to the chase. He has other videos where he puts different pumps into hemis. He even has an engineer (GM) who specifically works in this area and that guy agrees with him. He addresses another popular video where a mechanic explains his thesis and he doesn't disagree with the guy but explains more on what that one guy states and why his solution would address it.

I know many people have wondered about the "hemi tick" problem as a long term thing 6.4 owners might have to deal with over time. In doing my research, one, it can happen to any of them as my old 2015 5.7 in an Outdoorsman will attest to... There are stories of Hemi's in police fleets, in particular, suffering as they idle the cop cars so much. I live in MT and have seen temps as low as 41 below and use my remote start for a good four months out of the year on a pretty consistent basis so that may be been an underlying issue for me.

Essentially, he tears down various pumps and installs them and tests them in various other videos and it sure couldn't hurt as they are a relatively easy switchout. My question is that IF this is such an easy fix that would prevent a lot of warranty paid for problems, why doesn't Ram (Chrysler/FCA/STellantis whoever owns them now) just put these pumps on as standard equipment. It would seem that economies of scale and single unit variables alone would make it worth it.

AND, why doesn't anyone who worked or works for RAM or is retired from them or someone address this issue in a forum or something. It's always third parties. Like I said, I had the "lesser" issue of the bolts breaking/manifold in my 5.7, but this seems to be a documented problem in 6.4's to a lesser degree and very distinct in 5.7's.

 

[762fmj]

I saw this video yesterday. Pretty interesting. I don't know that it's the silver bullet, but it's cheap enough to try. I do wonder how Ram would feel about an improper oil pump installed if any engine issues arise. I know, I know magnuson moss, but an issue that seems to be directly related to oil seems like an easy one to blame on an incorrect oil pump.

 

[Redfour5]

I saw this video yesterday. Pretty interesting. I don't know that it's the silver bullet, but it's cheap enough to try. I do wonder how Ram would feel about an improper oil pump installed if any engine issues arise. I know, I know magnuson moss, but an issue that seems to be directly related to oil seems like an easy one to blame on an incorrect oil pump.

My question also... Maybe after 36K

 

[kevin588127]

I fully believe that the lifter issue is an oil pressure or oil quality problem. My 2014 1500 5.7 was run for it's first 40k on mobile 1full synth as that is what I run in everything. Around that time, I started to get a tick on cold starts when the truck sat for a few days. The tick only lasted for 2-3 seconds and would go away. At that time I started playing with different oils. I ran my next change with 1 quart of marvel mystery oil added to mobile 1. No tick for that 5k. Next I went to PUP for 2 changes. No tick for that 10k. Next I tried amsoil SS. All was fine for about 3k and then one morning I got the cold start tick. Funny thing is that the truck had sat for less than 24 hours. I'll be going back to PUP and running that in my new 2500 when it comes. I'm sitting at 75k and other than the cold start tick, there are no other indicators of any problems. My truck does run higher than average oil pressures. I usually see 55-60 on cold oil and 50-55 when warmed up.

 

[jetrinka]

I fully believe that the lifter issue is an oil pressure or oil quality problem. My 2014 1500 5.7 was run for it's first 40k on mobile 1full synth as that is what I run in everything. Around that time, I started to get a tick on cold starts when the truck sat for a few days. The tick only lasted for 2-3 seconds and would go away. At that time I started playing with different oils. I ran my next change with 1 quart of marvel mystery oil added to mobile 1. No tick for that 5k. Next I went to PUP for 2 changes. No tick for that 10k. Next I tried amsoil SS. All was fine for about 3k and then one morning I got the cold start tick. Funny thing is that the truck had sat for less than 24 hours. I'll be going back to PUP and running that in my new 2500 when it comes. I'm sitting at 75k and other than the cold start tick, there are no other indicators of any problems. My truck does run higher than average oil pressures. I usually see 55-60 on cold oil and 50-55 when warmed up.

You aren't describing any problem with the engine itself. Your problem lies in the anti drain back valve on the oil filter. Allowed to sit long enough oil drains back past the valve resulting in a tick on startup that lasts 2-3 seconds. Its not a problem at all - just something that happens. Especially on a worn out anti drain back valve on our Hemis that have horizontal oil filters. Ive had it happen before with 1000 miles on an oil change using Redline 0w40 and a Wix XP oil filter. Its just gonna happen.

 

[762fmj]

The sitting cold start tick is normal per the manual. But I'm thinking once the warranty is up it might be a good idea to swap the pump as insurance against lifter failure. Maybe it doesn't do anything to help, but it's cheap enough to try imo and there's no way to determine it will or won't with the resources at our disposal.

 

[Redfour5]

Before the warranty ends, I'd definitely have them take a look at it. Those bolts break more than people realize. I had it done twice before 60K with the bolt replacements and one manifold replacement. No problems, no tick for the next 10K miles. This was in like Sept 2020. I was on a lease with a few months left and they offered me 17K for a trade in after it was fixed. I decided to buy it out and keep it to 100K after that... And then had an undiagnosable Electrical problem that would shut off the engine at speed in June 2021 with no thrown codes and they were waiting for a Ram tech to come look at it. They offered me 27K trade in at 70K miles and I went for a new one... I figured that extra 10K on trade offset the lack of incentives and a bit more so went for it. Oh, on the 1500's, they cut the power train warranty to 60K miles in like 2016 from 100K. The tech at the dealership said it was because of the Hemi Tick issues more than likely... The main part of his job was replacing bolts, said it was sort of an art form so you didn't damage the engine...

 

[Mathnerd]

I have a couple of issues with his information. He says that the lifters have 2 sources of oil, one from the galley feeding the lifter bores and one from the oil that drains down the pushrods. Im giving him the benefit of the doubt in assuming he means the oil that drains down the outside of the pushrods from the head which is oil that came from the lifters in the first place and is not pressurized. The other thing is it doesn’t look, to me, like failure in the cam hardening. He briefly shows a clip of the cam out of his Challenger and the wear is in two lines around the outside of the lobe which looks more like the lifter roller failed initially. Usually, in my experience, failed hardening starts out as flaking of the lobe face or spalling at the high pressure contact area which would be the middle of the face. Also, a failure of the cam surface would eat up the roller but not necessarily cause the bearing failure. Last point is that the cam/lifter interface is not pressurized oiling anyway. It depends solely on the oil dribbling down from the lifter body. More pressure isn’t going to do anything.
Im not a metallurgist, a Mopar tech, or a powertrain engineer, just a guy that has been around and experienced a bunch, but this looks like needle bearing failure in the roller which isn’t going to be solved with higher idle oil pressure. This resembles the needle bearing failure in the GM LS7 rocker fulcrum.

 

[jetrinka]

I have a couple of issues with his information. He says that the lifters have 2 sources of oil, one from the galley feeding the lifter bores and one from the oil that drains down the pushrods. Im giving him the benefit of the doubt in assuming he means the oil that drains down the outside of the pushrods from the head which is oil that came from the lifters in the first place and is not pressurized. The other thing is it doesn’t look, to me, like failure in the cam hardening. He briefly shows a clip of the cam out of his Challenger and the wear is in two lines around the outside of the lobe which looks more like the lifter roller failed initially. Usually, in my experience, failed hardening starts out as flaking of the lobe face or spalling at the high pressure contact area which would be the middle of the face. Also, a failure of the cam surface would eat up the roller but not necessarily cause the bearing failure. Last point is that the cam/lifter interface is not pressurized oiling anyway. It depends solely on the oil dribbling down from the lifter body. More pressure isn’t going to do anything.
Im not a metallurgist, a Mopar tech, or a powertrain engineer, just a guy that has been around and experienced a bunch, but this looks like needle bearing failure in the roller which isn’t going to be solved with higher idle oil pressure. This resembles the needle bearing failure in the GM LS7 rocker fulcrum.

You aren’t wrong. I haven’t watched the video recently but think the metal hardening issue was attributed to the roller bearings themselves and not necessarily the cam lobe or roller itself.

 

[Mathnerd]

You aren’t wrong. I haven’t watched the video recently but think the metal hardening issue was attributed to the roller bearings themselves and not necessarily the cam lobe or roller itself.

He mentions the cam hardening specifically at about 3:50, but it would apply just as well to roller hardening.

 

[Riccochet]

I have a couple of issues with his information. He says that the lifters have 2 sources of oil, one from the galley feeding the lifter bores and one from the oil that drains down the pushrods. Im giving him the benefit of the doubt in assuming he means the oil that drains down the outside of the pushrods from the head which is oil that came from the lifters in the first place and is not pressurized. The other thing is it doesn’t look, to me, like failure in the cam hardening. He briefly shows a clip of the cam out of his Challenger and the wear is in two lines around the outside of the lobe which looks more like the lifter roller failed initially. Usually, in my experience, failed hardening starts out as flaking of the lobe face or spalling at the high pressure contact area which would be the middle of the face. Also, a failure of the cam surface would eat up the roller but not necessarily cause the bearing failure. Last point is that the cam/lifter interface is not pressurized oiling anyway. It depends solely on the oil dribbling down from the lifter body. More pressure isn’t going to do anything.
Im not a metallurgist, a Mopar tech, or a powertrain engineer, just a guy that has been around and experienced a bunch, but this looks like needle bearing failure in the roller which isn’t going to be solved with higher idle oil pressure. This resembles the needle bearing failure in the GM LS7 rocker fulcrum.

As far as I know the only way the rollers and cam are lubricated is via crank sling. The lifter angle is too shallow to allow run down to the roller, and they're not oil through lifters. No amount of pump is going to make a difference to the lifters and cam outside of pumping them up quicker.

Want to ensure your lifters and cam are properly lubricated? Switch to Johnson axle oiling lifters. Or don't idle so much. Get in and go so the crank can sling oil where it's needed.

 

[Firebird]

Interesting video, thanks for posting

 

[CJ99X]

Update to this reignited just did a video on a new melling pump for the 3rd gen hemi 10452HV

 

[anotheridiot]

Eventually, I get back to google and look for more hemi issues and end up waking up sleeping threads.
I started with an 07 5.7 Hemi, bought cheap due to lifter tick. Was not lifter tick, was valve seats and schrapnel. Pre 09 were seat issues due to cooling, not oiling. Anyway, only made sense to go to eagle heads, which turned to eagle intake, eagle exhaust manifolds, eagle pistons and of course this HV oil pump. Got Morel MDS lifters just because it made no sense to leave the old ones in there and have to pull the heads again. Starts loud, idles around 45. By the time the engine is hot, idle at stop lights is down to 8.7.
MDS is the devil. Trying to figure this out, went thru so many different softwares, got into my HP tuners to realize that they have MDS activating any time over 11 mph. What is the sense to that when it sounded like the design was to shut down at highway speeds. Solenoids only give oil to the lifters 1,4,6,7 when they are energized. Found this out trying to plug them and get misfires at 1,4,6,7. So no power, burnt wires, bad solenoids, all contribute.
Yesterday, I dumped this thin 0-20 oil, (since I never want the MDS to activate) took one step to 10-30. Startup 55, driving 30 stays about 30, idle and stoplights, 12.7.
Turning off the MDS with their software is one click, did not help with the tick. Went to putting it back on and changing it to only activate over 111 mph since I just added the 1 to 11.
These oil pressure numbers are only found driving using the snap on ethos and these numbers are after I raised the idle from 624 to 750. I am guessing it was getting around 6 at 624.
So I should have spent the extra 1000 to get non MDS cam and lifters, but the point I was at was never even driving this thing with the problem and not knowing all the extra thousands that might have had to be put into it, but even then, how long would the solid lifters have lasted with 8 pounds of oil pressure at idle anyway?
Also, the fan settings for these things from the factory is nuts. High speed to get high fan cooling is activated at 235 degrees, so they are also using the fuel mixture via the computer to warm up and cool the engine.
Just figuring to use this until I blow this motor, because its going to happen, but the fixes dont just happen with a new HV oil pump. Most likely might help if you change to the the stiffest spring you get before you install it.