The sway bar delete thread slapfest FKA What Rockcrawlerdude did TO his RAM today?

[jadmt]

problem with true emergency evasive maneuvers is there is no real way to practice them. Everyone thinks they are in control of how they drive but in reality we are not. We think we won't jerk the wheel but when certain circumstances happen that is exactly what happens..your eyes send a signal to your brain that something is going to take you out and your brain sends a signal to your to your arms to avoid whatever is going to take you out. If we could anticipate these occurrences there would be a lot fewer wrecks. Will you lose control and crash and die and kill a busload of school children without a swaybar? most likely not. Will a heavy tall truck handle better in an emergency situation with a proper swaybar? I think so. Have I driven without one? Yes. did I want to? No. I was in Moab and flipped my swaybar fubarring the links. One bad thing about the smart bar. If you have too much travel the bar can flip bending the wimpy links beyond repair. definitely could feel a difference in how planted my Rubicon was thru fast turns on the highway and coming through Salt Lake in rush hour having some jack wad cutting in on you at 80mph forcing you to change your lane was scary. other than that it was uneventful. For the record the swaybar will reconnect on its own above 20mph or so. Sometimes it takes a while for it to do it but on the highway it eventually connects. I have had a smart bar on jeeps since 2012. I actually prefer manually disconnecting tho (jks links) because if you have a lot of suspension travel you can flip the swaybar when really using your suspension limits. also I like being disconnected on forest service roads in 2wd when traveling fast it makes for a nicer ride.

 

[jadmt]

I accept you publicly admitting defeat. Thank you.

But if you ever change your mind feel free to prove me wrong with a simple test



I do not own a Power Wagon since I required a reasonable payload capacity although it was my understanding that if your front anti-swab bar is disconnected and you exceed a certain speed, like 18 MPH, it automatically reconnects. Are you able to test that and post a video for us?

that is true. it tries to reconnect once you hit a certain speed like 18-20mph and eventually will reconnect, some times it takes a little bit for it to do but it will. 90% of the time I do not reconnect it by hitting the button just put it in 2wd and drive and it ends up connecting.

 

[Rockcrawlindude]

So your making comments/assumptions about trucks you dont own and/or havent driven.

Crusty, do power wagons have softer and taller springs than a regular 2500?

I will say that if I got softer springs like carli or thuren, or if I lifted my truck, I would probably get the torsion sway bar system sold by those companies. The softer springs and increased height would probably feel less stable. My stock springs are very stable and heavy.

 

[2001WS6]

Crusty, do power wagons have softer and taller springs than a regular 2500?

I will say that if I got softer springs like carli or thuren, or if I lifted my truck, I would probably get the torsion sway bar system sold by those companies. The softer springs and increased height would probably feel less stable. My stock springs are very stable and heavy.

When I was researching a Power Wagon back in 2017 I believe that the springs are taller and also softer.

 

[Crusty old shellback]

Crusty, do power wagons have softer and taller springs than a regular 2500?

I will say that if I got softer springs like carli or thuren, or if I lifted my truck, I would probably get the torsion sway bar system sold by those companies. The softer springs and increased height would probably feel less stable. My stock springs are very stable and heavy.

Yes, factory 2 inch lift and softer springs. So it looses a bit on payload, but works great off road. And has good on road manners.

When talking with Thuren about a suspension for my truck, they recommended keeping the factory rear springs as they were a bit stiffer than their rear springs. And use their 1/2" taller front springs.

 

[IndyRamMega]

I’ll do it when you do it with your camper. Maybe a race?

Does your truck have one or two swaybars? I had two. I now have only one swaybar. I thought you had only one.

Regarding deer: you don’t swerve to miss deer. You slow down and, if you have to, you Just hit the deer. Anybody with sense will tell you this. Also, Hitting a deer is comprehensive (no fault) missing a deer and crashing in a ditch is collision (at fault). Regarding Kids: I drive the speed limit in residential zones. Adjustments wouldn’t send me into a barrel roll lol

You act like I don’t have good sense.. surely you don’t think that

Thought everyone knew you don't swerve...you go to Ramming speed!

 

[PGHChris81]

I am not hear

Guess you aren't "here" to use proper grammar either, just be on your soapbox.

 

[Rockcrawlindude]

@Rockcrawlerdude - your debate was not against me, it was against common sense and generally accepted suspension engineering principals. I am not hear to educate you although my suggestion is you pick up a few books on the basics of suspension engineering and begin to educate yourself. Any professional with involvement in engineering suspension systems would literally turn their back on you and walk away laughing after hearing your claims. Again, this is not you versus me - this is you versus common sense. Tuck your tail and enjoy your walk of shame.

I would not claim to be a suspension expert although I have a above average understanding and direct application experience. I raced nationally years ago and traveled the country racing different roadracing courses. I didn't have primary factory sponsorship since I only raced regionally prior to nationally so instead of building engines with massive horsepower that would require frequent rebuilds ($$$$$$$) I redirected my focus to suspension and gearing ($). I learned so much from others and became so consistent at placing the power to the ground and cornering at high speeds I finished 2nd overall in the nation at the end of the year in one class and 4th overall in another. The same basic suspension principals which apply to the track also apply to street driving - especially when you are standing on the brakes and cornering hard or swerving.

With as many posts as you have others will read and possibly believe what you are incorrectly stating. On a forum like this, posting an illegal modification that could possibly result in people being injured or killed is beyond irresponsible. If you are missing something as basic as this I don't see much value in any of your other posts since all are suspect. And you know deep down inside that you are unable to prove me wrong so you attempt to redirect the discussion and attack me. I'm not the only one who can see right through that. I am closing this topic now since there is no debate. I wish you the best and do hope you take me up on learning more about suspension engineering.



@Crusty old shellback - no assumptions here, only facts.

Illegal. Lol. It is not illegal here in Georgia to remove a sway bar. Our laws state you cannot modify a suspension more than 2” (up or down) and the springs relative to the suspension cannot be broken.

Do you know how many states have laws against modifying the suspension more than 2” (lift or lowered) yet people still do it?

Just for you I’ve added a disclaimer to my signature line so I don’t melt your snowflake bubble. Only because I think you’re a good guy.

I have “illegal” window tint if you’re looking for laws I’ve broken. I have 25% and the limit is 32%. I’m sure the authorities are on their way.

My “suspension engineering” comes from my own experience. I’ve literally built suspensions from scratch. Hanging the mounts off of the frame and welding the brackets on the axles with my own tools and hands. If I have an actual engineering question I just ask my brother who is literally a “suspension engineer” although his title is only Lead Design Engineer in a little office in Scotts Valley for a small suspension company that calls themselves Fox.

Enjoy your truck and your lift kit that somebody installed for you.

 

[aaronedmonton]

Vision nemesis 111 in gun metal. 18x9 +18 with Toyo open country rt 37x12.5x18

Sent from my KB2007 using Tapatalk

Dang it, I knew those were 37s. That’s why it looks so good. I’m gonna do 35s. Was mostly curious on the offset of the wheels anyway. Thanks!

 

[el_barto]

You could probably set them up to fire when the brake lights light up, just have to switch the wiring. I’ve done that before on other lighting mods on vehicles we’ve towed behind our motorhome.

I have a set of DD SS3s on backorder…whenever they come in I’m going to install them in my bumper with the red backlights tied in with my brake lights.

Should be easy enough since Ram provides the brake light pigtail by the spare tire.

 

[flan]

@Rockcrawlerdude - your debate was not against me, it was against common sense and generally accepted suspension engineering principals. I am not hear to educate you although my suggestion is you pick up a few books on the basics of suspension engineering and begin to educate yourself. Any professional with involvement in engineering suspension systems would literally turn their back on you and walk away laughing after hearing your claims. Again, this is not you versus me - this is you versus common sense. Tuck your tail and enjoy your walk of shame.

I would not claim to be a suspension expert although I have a above average understanding and direct application experience. I raced nationally years ago and traveled the country racing different roadracing courses. I didn't have primary factory sponsorship since I only raced regionally prior to nationally so instead of building engines with massive horsepower that would require frequent rebuilds ($$$$$$$) I redirected my focus to suspension and gearing ($). I learned so much from others and became so consistent at placing the power to the ground and cornering at high speeds I finished 2nd overall in the nation at the end of the year in one class and 4th overall in another. The same basic suspension principals which apply to the track also apply to street driving - especially when you are standing on the brakes and cornering hard or swerving.

With as many posts as you have others will read and possibly believe what you are incorrectly stating. On a forum like this, posting an illegal modification that could possibly result in people being injured or killed is beyond irresponsible. If you are missing something as basic as this I don't see much value in any of your other posts since all are suspect. And you know deep down inside that you are unable to prove me wrong so you attempt to redirect the discussion and attack me. I'm not the only one who can see right through that. I am closing this topic now since there is no debate. I wish you the best and do hope you take me up on learning more about suspension engineering.



@Crusty old shellback - no assumptions here, only facts.

Y’all are just gonna have to agree, to disagree.

 

[Brutal_HO]

I am going to be polite and understanding as possible because that's what kind of a man I am. I disagree with driving on the street with a front anti-sway bar disconnected but since I am always open to learning I going to provide you with the ability to educate me. This is a rather simple test and it could be fun for all of us. Of course, you and your rig will be the test subjects.

Go out this weekend and find an empty industrial park, abandon airfield, or some other safe place to lay out 10-20 cheap cones around 15-20 paces apart. Make sure you video record this experiment and share your thoughts with us - maybe a live broadcast?!? Anyway, begin with your anti-sway bar connected, and run the slalom course at 10 MPH and work up in 5 MPH increments. Records your times and share your thoughts. Most importantly, share your top speed with us.

Now, remove that goofy, heavy, unnecessary (according to some), anti-sway bar and repeat the testing beginning at 10 MPH and going up in 5 MPH increments. And please make sure you are recording this...I am really interested in seeing the results of your testing. Again, share your times and especially your top speed.

Are you willing to teach me something new or not?



Interesting...so we are now able to check a box somewhere and declare that we do not with to become involved in accidents? Please, tell me exactly how you can avoid all accidents such as deer bolting out at night, kids running between cars into the street, other drivers turning left in front of us at intersections, drivers falling asleep on long drives, etc. Since 30-40k people die in motor vehicle accidents in these United States every year there are countless who would love to take advantage of your secret. Please educate me once again.

In all honesty, I would love to see you perform the aforementioned testing...just tell us when to tune in

You could simply voice your opinion without being so antagonistic.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

I have been doing it for over 20years on all my solid axle vehicles, hell i even removed both track bars from my old YJ’s…. In those 20years i have avoided many deer and animals at highway speeds never been in an uncontrollable situation funny how that works….

 

[Lumpskie]

I appreciate everyone's genuine thoughts and concerns on this subject. But, I worry because subject can easily become something that fragments a group without leading to any additional learning or solution. Swaybars are simply a way to adjust roll stiffness without adjusting spring rate. There isn't a single value that represents "safe". Instead there is a range of safe and acceptable values. These values are most dramatically affected by the use case of the vehicle. The Ram engineers created a suspension that had to suit daily driver commuters, heavy trailer tows, cab over campers, and a myriad of other users. Campers are the modification that has the most effect on the dynamic reactions of the truck. (Increasing the CG with a camper dramatically affects load transfer in corners) In such cases, roll stiffness is important to prevent body roll, preventing that high CG from approaching edge of the stability triangle. (obviously, there is a triangle for the front suspension and a separate triangle for the rear suspension) In the case of diesel Ram 2500s, the front is designed with much more roll stiffness than the rear. (I think this is because the front weight remains largely unchanged whereas the rear changes based upon whether the bed is loaded or not) When roll stiffness is mismatched, front to rear, it results in poorer handling than when it is matched. In this case, reducing the roll stiffness in the front to match the rear more closely would provide better handling, as long as the use case doesn't force the stability triangle to the edge of its limits. In those extreme cases, increasing rear roll stiffness might be a better option. (if I ran a heavy camper, I'd consider a Hellwig in the rear. If I want to rock crawl my truck with light loads in the bed, I would reduce front roll stiffness with removing the front swaybar or replacing it with Carli/Thuren) Keep in mind that the rubber in our front radius arms require deflection to allow the front axle to move. This acts like a swaybar in addition to the swaybar itself. (linked suspensions don't have this design side effect) This is my way of saying, each owner should know their rig and what they are using it for. They should ensure that their suspension configuration represents what is safe. If they don't have the knowledge to make adjustments, get help from someone who does. But, also consider that other people's use of their truck might be different than your own.

 

[gimmie11s]

@Rockcrawlerdude - your debate was not against me, it was against common sense and generally accepted suspension engineering principals. I am not hear to educate you although my suggestion is you pick up a few books on the basics of suspension engineering and begin to educate yourself. Any professional with involvement in engineering suspension systems would literally turn their back on you and walk away laughing after hearing your claims. Again, this is not you versus me - this is you versus common sense. Tuck your tail and enjoy your walk of shame.

I would not claim to be a suspension expert although I have a above average understanding and direct application experience. I raced nationally years ago and traveled the country racing different roadracing courses. I didn't have primary factory sponsorship since I only raced regionally prior to nationally so instead of building engines with massive horsepower that would require frequent rebuilds ($$$$$$$) I redirected my focus to suspension and gearing ($). I learned so much from others and became so consistent at placing the power to the ground and cornering at high speeds I finished 2nd overall in the nation at the end of the year in one class and 4th overall in another. The same basic suspension principals which apply to the track also apply to street driving - especially when you are standing on the brakes and cornering hard or swerving.

With as many posts as you have others will read and possibly believe what you are incorrectly stating. On a forum like this, posting an illegal modification that could possibly result in people being injured or killed is beyond irresponsible. If you are missing something as basic as this I don't see much value in any of your other posts since all are suspect. And you know deep down inside that you are unable to prove me wrong so you attempt to redirect the discussion and attack me. I'm not the only one who can see right through that. I am closing this topic now since there is no debate. I wish you the best and do hope you take me up on learning more about suspension engineering.



@Crusty old shellback - no assumptions here, only facts.

What you are arguing is opinion, not fact--An opinion which, everyone is entitled to.

 

[gimmie11s]

Illegal. Lol. It is not illegal here in Georgia to remove a sway bar. Our laws state you cannot modify a suspension more than 2” (up or down) and the springs relative to the suspension cannot be broken.

Do you know how many states have laws against modifying the suspension more than 2” (lift or lowered) yet people still do it?

Just for you I’ve added a disclaimer to my signature line so I don’t melt your snowflake bubble. Only because I think you’re a good guy.

I have “illegal” window tint if you’re looking for laws I’ve broken. I have 25% and the limit is 32%. I’m sure the authorities are on their way.

My “suspension engineering” comes from my own experience. I’ve literally built suspensions from scratch. Hanging the mounts off of the frame and welding the brackets on the axles with my own tools and hands. If I have an actual engineering question I just ask my brother who is literally a “suspension engineer” although his title is only Lead Design Engineer in a little office in Scotts Valley for a small suspension company that calls themselves Fox.

Enjoy your truck and your lift kit that somebody installed for you.

Chester has never broken the speed limit and only screws missionary. Anything else is illegal. lmfaoooooo

 

[DontSlamMyRam]

As I scan my data banks I seam to remember sway bars being an option in the 60s n 70s. Surprisingly my parents lived w/o S/Bs and had me so I can be here to point this out..

 

[gimmie11s]

As I scan my data banks I seam to remember sway bars being an option in the 60s n 70s. Surprisingly my parents lived w/o S/Bs and had me so I can be here to point this out..

Do you remind them how illegal they were??

 

[Crusty old shellback]

Did I miss something? Removing a sway bar is now illegal?
Is that in all 50 states and U.S. territories? Or is that world wide?

As far as sway bars go, it depends on the racing as to do they use them or not and if so, how they are set up.
You ever watch SST racing or a 1000HP Trophy Truck run off road or turn a corner?
Tricycling thru the corners with the inside tire way up in the air.
Yes they have sway bars, but they also have a lot of body roll.

 

[H3LZSN1P3R]

Did I miss something? Removing a sway bar is now illegal?
Is that in all 50 states and U.S. territories? Or is that world wide?

As far as sway bars go, it depends on the racing as to do they use them or not and if so, how they are set up.
You ever watch SST racing or a 1000HP Trophy Truck run off road or turn a corner?
Tricycling thru the corners with the inside tire way up in the air.
Yes they have sway bars, but they also have a lot of body roll.

Yep sway bars only eliminate body roll really, my 14 jeep i could crank the wheel and punch it from a dead stop and lift a front tire off the ground when i removed the rear sway bar because of the extra body roll…