Power Wagon v. Diesel Fuel Costs

[bellvedere]

Afternoon everyone, new member here. I had a quick question for those that came from a diesel pickup to the PW. I am thinking about picking up a PW to build out and currently have a one ton Sierra. With the gas mileage and mid-grade fuel costs, was there any real difference in your overall gas costs or would you say it was about the same?

Thank you in advance.

 

[jetrinka]

I came from an 01 Cummins and my PW certainly is much thirstier - empty or towing (I swear I can hear that thing slurping from the tank like a fat kid with a milkshake any time I'm on the throttle....). I have never been great about tracking fuel costs cause I just go buy fuel - what other choice do I have. However I'd say my fuel card balance is certainly consistently higher at the end of the month when I go to pay my balance off than before with the diesel.

People have agonized on this forum endlessly over this exact subject - diesel vs Hemi cost. It just comes down to buying what you need cause the cost seems like a wash IMO. If you desire offroad capability over all else, get the PW. If low payload and towing capability is something that scares you then get a traditional Hemi (if not towing too heavy) or the diesel (if towing heavy all the time).

The gas Rebel trim, if you aren't needing a diesel, is likely the best compromise between the two IMO. It is expensive though.

 

[el_barto]

^^^ this
If you need a diesel, get a diesel.
If you want it for offroad, get a power wagon.

Diesel is typically $1-$1.5 more per gallon than gas (there was a short period where diesel was cheap). Truck runs fine on regular (mid grade is nice, but I haven’t noticed any difference running regular…it’s the same engine as they put in tradesman work trucks that certainly get regular, it’s designed to take it)

You’re driving a 7,000+ pound pig, that probably costs 60-75k, you can’t expect great mileage and if you can’t afford the fuel, look for something more efficient.

I’ll say, when I compare to smaller cars that don’t do great on fuel I feel better about it. My girlfriend has a Bronco Sport. It gets like 25-26mpg, even though it weighs half as much as my truck, small skinny tires vs 35” ATs, only has a 1.6L engine, etc. On our road trip we got maybe 28mpg, compared to my truck which I’ve gotten 15.5-16mpg on the same route.

 

[Crusty old shellback]

Just did a 1K mile trip in my '21 PW. Only change is put on BFG 35's.
Road was flat land and mountains. Some snow. Got 15 MPG overall average. Speeds were from 30 in the little towns to 70 to 75 out on the road.

 

[406Linetrash]

Get whatever fits your needs. Unless you tow a lot. I just switched back to a Cummins. The cost is about a wash. Empty.

If you tow a lot you should probably look a little deeper. I came out ahead towing for sure with the diesel. And am overall a lot happier back in a diesel.
I knew I was asking a lot of the hemi when I bought. It. It was a great truck with a great transmission.

 

[tchur1]

I have a 2022 3500 SRW with the HO Cummins on 37s w/ 3.73 rear end. My brother has a 2022 PW on 37s, everything else is stock on both trucks. I get 16-18mpg around town and 19-21 on the highway. He gets 11-13 around town and 15-17 on the highway.

We both live in Lake Tahoe and "in town" driving is normally single lane highways with 45-55mph speed limits.

Diesel here is about $.50 more than gas. Our cost probably comes out in a wash. I got a diesel because I tow all summer, he got the PW because its killer off road. We both love the trucks for our given use case.

 

[jsalbre]

The important thing to know is that a big V8 is excellent at turning gasoline into glorious noise.

 

[techman]

Diesel here is about $.50 more than gas

What??!?!

It's $2 more here in Mass.

 

[tchur1]

What??!?!

It's $2 more here in Mass.

Gas is $5.50 a gallon where I live and Diesel is about $6.20. Sucks both ways.

 

[bellvedere]

, it’s about a dollar more up here in Washington. Yeah I REALLY like the PW and what you can do with it modification wise. Haven’t had Sierra that long but just not as many things available on the market to put on it…but I love the way the Diesel drives too.

These are first world problems for sure .

Appreciate all the insight guys.

 

[UglyViking]

The only thing that you can do to the PW you can't do to the Cummins is exhaust, well "legally" anyway.

As others have said, you should think about what you need. If you're not going to tow, and you want to stay within legal regs (ie. don't wanna mess with deleting), then I'd seriously lean Hemi, either PW or reg 2500 trim. The reason is longevity wise there is less concern around emissions system, and while the Hemi does have that stupid MDS, you can remove/tune the system out while still being in the legal clear. You can never remove the emissions equipment and be in the legal clear, at least federally. I like to hear my truck make cool truck noises, and I miss that with the diesel, so that's another win for the Hemi.

If you're planning on towing semi-regularly, then it's Cummins all day. Outside of being a much nicer experience overall, you get better MPG, so you can go for longer. You have more options for extended range tanks, and more placements. You also get to use the tractor trailer diesel islands while doing a long distance trip. The value in this can't be overstated in my eyes. If you've got young kids and a cranky wife in the truck, the last thing you wanna be doing is getting stuck at a gas island because someone blocked you and your trailer in.

Historically, the price between gas and diesel we are seeing now is absolutely bonkers. Look at the prices over time and you'll see that diesel has trended well under a dollar per gallon difference between the two (regular gas prices 1990-current, all grades average 1993-current, diesel 1994-current).

Personally, I really really love diesel trucks, so I'd be hard pressed to give mine up. In fact, the only thing I dislike about them is the emissions equipment. I'd personally be more likely to delete mine than trade in for a Hemi. But since I'm an upstanding citizen who would never break the law, I'd prob look at a Hemi if I didn't have a need to tow, if for nothing else to get the sound.

 

[Docwagon1776]

What??!?!

It's $2 more here in Mass.

For some reason it seems real regional now. CA, diesel is pretty neck and neck with gas. East and Midwest, gas is some $1.50-$2.25 cheaper. I've seen gas here at $3.05 while diesel was $5.25 at the same truck stop. CA last fall it was *maybe* a 25 cent spread.

 

[Docwagon1776]

Afternoon everyone, new member here. I had a quick question for those that came from a diesel pickup to the PW. I am thinking about picking up a PW to build out and currently have a one ton Sierra. With the gas mileage and mid-grade fuel costs, was there any real difference in your overall gas costs or would you say it was about the same?

Thank you in advance.

The 6.4 doesn't ask for midgrade like the 5.7 does. Some people run it anyway, but the manual calls only for 87 with no mention of 89 recommended.

 

[PMC]

Where I am the prices are about 33-35% higher for Diesel and I use about that additional amount running 87 in my wagon. Fuel costs for me are a wash but it cost less to maintain and I don't have the emissions hanging over my head like I did with my last two trucks (both were flawless but maybe I was lucky). I much prefer the pedal response of gas vs diesel and since we downsized our camper I have zero need to drive a diesel and sold it.
Love my PW, it's a keeper even if it's a bit thirsty.

 

[jsalbre]

The 6.4 doesn't ask for midgrade like the 5.7 does. Some people run it anyway, but the manual calls only for 87 with no mention of 89 recommended.

The ‘19 and early ‘20 owners manuals called for 89. They changed it at some unknown point. The general consensus is that it was a copy/paste error and someone finally caught it and made a quiet change.

 

[DrTron]

In fact, the only thing I dislike about them is the emissions equipment. I'd personally be more likely to delete mine than trade in for a Hemi. But since I'm an upstanding citizen who would never break the law, I'd prob look at a Hemi if I didn't have a need to tow, if for nothing else to get the sound.

I appreciate that. I'm not a Diesel guy, but there's a reason for the emissions equipment and to not "delete" it: Diesels are, by nature, a lot more harmful to both population and the environment than gas engines. That comes from the kind of fuel, the pressure and gas chemistry in Diesels and is just physics and chemistry. No way to change that.
And only recently we have acquired the technology to make that mostly go away. Don't get me wrong, I personally think that 3-way-catalytic converters for gas engines (first introduced sometime in the late 70's, I think) are a godsend. As a 70s kid, I remember how awful traffic fumes were.
So the issue that was solved with catalytic converters in gas engines (HC, CO and NOx) is rather easy to fix chemically with fuel injection (lambda=1) and a catalyst, they get converted to water and CO2.
It's a bit more difficult with Diesel engines, mostly because of the soot (hence particulate filters, I remember Diesel cars always having a black tail end), and as soot is a particulate and not a gas, it clogs and poisons the catalyst and it cannot easily be used to chemically reduce NOx, and the CO content alone is not high enough. Therefore, a urea solution (DEF) is injected after the particulate filter to reduce the NOx and turn it into water and nitrogen, both of which are harmless.

Certainly, an emissions system as complex as that has to be maintained, but I think that's well worth it compared to the toxic emissions it prevents. "Deleting" a truck doesn't make it run better (contrary to popular belief), but it obviously eliminates the need for maintenance on the emissions system, which probably is why people do it in the first place.

 

[akguy09]

Honestly, it depends on what you tow and how often. I sold my '12 Ram w/cummins to get my '22 PW. I always hear people say, if you tow get the Cummins. If you're only towing like 5k-8k 1 or twice a month a 6.4 can handle that easily.

If you're towing heavy weight alot, then be realistic. I tow my 7K dump trailer and my 7K flatbed with my tractors on them frequently...does it tow as easily as my Cummins....no. Does it tow well, YES.

 

[406Linetrash]

I appreciate that. I'm not a Diesel guy, but there's a reason for the emissions equipment and to not "delete" it: Diesels are, by nature, a lot more harmful to both population and the environment than gas engines. That comes from the kind of fuel, the pressure and gas chemistry in Diesels and is just physics and chemistry. No way to change that.
And only recently we have acquired the technology to make that mostly go away. Don't get me wrong, I personally think that 3-way-catalytic converters for gas engines (first introduced sometime in the late 70's, I think) are a godsend. As a 70s kid, I remember how awful traffic fumes were.
So the issue that was solved with catalytic converters in gas engines (HC, CO and NOx) is rather easy to fix chemically with fuel injection (lambda=1) and a catalyst, they get converted to water and CO2.
It's a bit more difficult with Diesel engines, mostly because of the soot (hence particulate filters, I remember Diesel cars always having a black tail end), and as soot is a particulate and not a gas, it clogs and poisons the catalyst and it cannot easily be used to chemically reduce NOx, and the CO content alone is not high enough. Therefore, a urea solution (DEF) is injected after the particulate filter to reduce the NOx and turn it into water and nitrogen, both of which are harmless.

Certainly, an emissions system as complex as that has to be maintained, but I think that's well worth it compared to the toxic emissions it prevents. "Deleting" a truck doesn't make it run better (contrary to popular belief), but it obviously eliminates the need for maintenance on the emissions system, which probably is why people do it in the first place.

For the record. I’m against deleting as well.

The coa’s in diesel are higher, like 10 times higher pre ulsd. As well as nox. But gasoline produces a lot more damaging green house gasses than diesel.

 

[DrTron]

For the record. I’m against deleting as well.

The coa’s in diesel are higher, like 10 times higher pre ulsd. As well as nox. But gasoline produces a lot more damaging green house gasses than diesel.

I have to admit that I have no idea what either "coa" or "ulsd" is, but CO2 emissions are roughly on par, at least when comparing energy content. They both have about 41 MJ/kg.
Both fuels convert chemical into thermal energy by basically reacting a hydrocarbon chain (CH2_x) plus oxygen to CO2 and H2O. And the energy released per stoichometric reaction is about the same, independent of hydrocarbon chain length (which is the only difference between diesel and gasoline). Here it's even a bit less for Diesel compared to Gasoline, in the range of a few percent. It generally becomes more the more hydrogen the fuel molecule has, with methane at the top.
However, Diesel engines are more efficient when it comes to converting that thermal energy to mechanical energy, but the difference is not high.

So regarding the CO2 emissions per mile driven, they're pretty much equal. Maybe a slight advantage for the Diesel, but not by a lot. Given the same vehicle, that is.
Just don't try to compare gallon for gallon, because Diesel does have a higher energy density by volume, mostly because of the higher density. Which is the reason that you usually get a better fuel mileage in mpg. Sadly, that's what many studies look at, and it doesn't tell the whole story. Energy-wise, they're about the same.

Diesels are more fuel-efficient than gasoline engines because they run rather lean. That, however, significantly increases the amount of NOx produced. So without an efficient exhaust treatment, that can be considered pretty dirty.

 

[Docwagon1776]

I have to admit that I have no idea what either "coa" or "ulsd" is, but CO2 emissions are roughly on par, at least when comparing energy content.

Not sure on COA, but ULSD is Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel. The transition from "regular" to "ULSD" was in the late 2000's, maybe 2009 or 2010-ish IIRC and caused prices to spike up instantly. It also had less lubrication than "regular" diesel, so additives like DK became handy for diesels not designed for it. I was driving a F-250 Super Duty with the 7.3 at the time.

IIRC, CO2 wasn't the major issue with diesels and the transition in fuel and emissions equipment, it was nitrogen and sulphur coumpounds that lead to smog, acid rain, etc. But, again, I'm going from memory so take it for what it's worth.