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CP4 Changes - to large dimple symmetrical cam version

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KiowaWarrior RAM

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It's a crappy situation for dealers, too. I don't recall Ford dealers warning people that 6.0s were coming apart faster than they could pull cabs.
Oh I didn't mean Manufacture Specific as the problem... just a lousy pump issue that should've/could've been R&D prior to placing on vehicles. But if it upsets you that I specifically talk down on dealers then you have to get a little thicker "skin" my friend.
 
D

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Oh I didn't mean Manufacture Specific as the problem... just a lousy pump issue that should've/could've been R&D prior to placing on vehicles. But if it upsets you that I specifically talk down on dealers then you have to get a little thicker "skin" my friend.
No thicker skin required. I don't believe in the tooth fairy, though.
 

garysol1

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If you look at how few trucks are effected vs how many sold I think you will find it is not a big deal and I will go out on a limb and say that most dealers especially on the sales side are not at all aware of any issues. The internet blows it out of proportion. You do have the updated symmetrical pump.


Anyone out there using Lucas in Fuel tanks for Lubrication and Boost Cetane? I also use Xp3 fuel for lubrication and combat gel/crystallization.

Bought my RAM in Sept 20... Date Built 9/20 I didn't find out about this after the fact and the dealer never mentioned this problem. If you ask me it's kinda ****ty way to do business.
 

heyguy

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Anyone out there using Lucas in Fuel tanks for Lubrication and Boost Cetane? I also use Xp3 fuel for lubrication and combat gel/crystallization.

Bought my RAM in Sept 20... Date Built 9/20 I didn't find out about this after the fact and the dealer never mentioned this problem. If you ask me it's kinda ****ty way to do business.
I've been using Lucas upper cylinder lube. No issues.
 

Nick

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Howes or Diesel Kleen work just as well and are much cheaper . Same crap different name .
 

Brutal_HO

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Oh I didn't mean Manufacture Specific as the problem... just a lousy pump issue that should've/could've been R&D prior to placing on vehicles. But if it upsets you that I specifically talk down on dealers then you have to get a little thicker "skin" my friend.

Most here have a thick skin. Trolling and insulting members within your first few posts isn't the way to win hearts and minds or get anyone to take you seriously.

While there's plenty of complainers and pissed off owners regarding the CP4, this thread will not be allowed to turn into a flame war like others have.

Keep it civil please. Thanks for your cooperation.
 

kobra

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I talked with a local diesel repair and specialty shop today. They service diesel engines from pickups and highway tractors, to heavy and oil field equipment.
They do see some CP4 issues, but overall did not seem overly concerned about them.
They sent me this video; I thought it was a good explanation of the potential issues that can happen. S&S here is also talking about a type of bypass kit you can buy for the pump to protect the injectors, etc, from contamination if the pump should fail. Might be an option for some to consider.

B

 

Nick

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I think that bypass kit only works for Fords , That is how I interpreted it . Then again I may be wrong .
 

Brutal_HO

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It's been reported the bypass kit for the RAM CP4.2 was shelved and isn't likely to be available.

That info and a video similar to the one posted have been circulating for a while now.
 
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kobra

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As always, thanks for the up to date info, @Brutal_HO !

The video did hint at new products next year, but I guess we will have to wait to see if/when it might materialize.
When I was watching, it made me wonder why something like that isn't designed into the CP4 to begin with.

BTW, I didn't see it on this thread - it seems the reason for the CP4 was to meet the Euro 5 emissions standards. Is that correct? If so, is that why FCA had to upgrade away from the CP3?

B
 
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As always, thanks for the up to date info, @Brutal_HO !


BTW, I didn't see it on this thread - it seems the reason for the CP4 was to meet the Euro 5 emissions standards. Is that correct? If so, is that why FCA had to upgrade away from the CP3?

B
The fact that there are emissions compliant CP3 conversions, and a strong rumor that the '21 Cummins may return to the CP3 shows that to be the corporate canard I figured it was. The CP4 was a bean counter decision.
 

kobra

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Wouldn't be the first time the bean counters forced a change that was a bad idea.
If you want a good book to read, Bob Lutz book "Car Guys vs Bean Counters" is well worth the read.

B
 
D

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Wouldn't be the first time the bean counters forced a change that was a bad idea.
If you want a good book to read, Bob Lutz book "Car Guys vs Bean Counters" is well worth the read.

B
Very familiar with Lutz. Also, have a close friend who spent his entire career as an AE, and he is a "car guy". I have heard countless tales of foolish decision making forced by bean counters, and the long-term negative toll they take.
 

Epsilon Plus

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At this point the only unknowns to the crew (like me) who follows this issue with every development is:

1) Changes of the symmetrical cam CP4. As in, we know the cam lobe was altered for a less aggressive ramp rate. However, I haven't seen or heard of anyone opening up one yet to see if anything else has been changed (such as a keyed lifter).

2) The 2021 pump. There are some rando posts on various forums with people who claim to know "insiders" that bet their farm on the switch back to CP3 (that's why the rumor). Until we see a pump on an actual MY 2021, nobody will know.

3) The parts shortage on the CP4 could be causing FCA to drag their feet on a TSB or recall for the older units. Some theories are they don't want to admit fault, but the pump IS under STAR restriction (internal outfit that deals with repair authorization). FCA could full well end up recalling the older units, but they just got a 3-peat truck of the year and are dealing with worldwide Rona manufacturing shortages. Any new design pumps are going to be reserved for the damaged trucks authorized for repair, and the new trucks coming out of the factory to maintain the sales momentum.

Since I'm here listing stuff might as well go over what we DO know for the new crowd:

1) The CP4.2 injection pump was installed in all 2019-2020 RAM 6.7s. The original had an asymmetrical cam design for the lifter. The theory of failure is that the aggressive ramp rate of the cam lobe contributes to the lifter turning in the bore, effectively kicking the roller off it's intended path, causing it to grind and send metal shavings through the system. Additive companies claim to aid the prevention of this by increasing the lubricity in the fuel, making it "slippery" so the lifter roller doesn't stick and kick to the side. Around early September, a revision to the pump was released [Pump Identification Link]. It is identified by the large machined dimple in the top right corner. All other small dimples on any of the pumps are nothing but date/mfg coding and do not indicate design differences. The revised pump has a symmetrical cam lobe theorized to lessen the ramp rate of the lifter, reducing the chance of the lifter spinning in the bore.

2) The only reason we know about this pump change is a TSB (technical service bulletin) released by FCA telling the field techs that a specific tune flash needs to be associated with each pump revision. The asym flash will cause NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) on sym pumps and vise versa. This does NOT mean that the pump was revised because of an existing NVH issue. No official word from FCA or Bosch or Cummins has been released on why the pump was revised.

3) Old style asym pumps have been known (from first hand experience testimonials on the net) to grenade between both 2019s and 2020s and at all mileage from just a couple hundred up to 30,000+.

4) There is no known failure rate outside of FCA. The "7%" claim comes from an additive manufacture and has been spread around by other companies. This rate likely includes all CP4s, maybe even including the CP4.1 and CP4.2s on other vehicles like VWs, EcoDiesel, PowerStroke...etc. The failure rate on specifically the 2019+ RAM HD is unusually high for anyone that has followed automotive things on the net for 20+ years. This IS a problem and the hush-hush pump revision is more fuel to that fire.

5) As of this post there is no known failure of the new style sym pump

6) Of all the research I do on this issue on every forum and a few Facebook groups, there has only been one first hand report of a warranty denial due to contaminated fuel on a RAM HD. At first the person was denied for having an aftermarket fuel filter, but after he cited Magnusson-Moss act, the dealer changed their story to contaminated fuel.

7) It is not known how the fuel testing is done. This is in reference to additives. Nobody knows if they are just checking for water, or if they send the fuel through a likely much more complex and technical testing procedure to check for the chemicals that would contribute to added cetane/lubricity/injector cleaning, basically all the stuff that the additives claim to add. Since different fuel companies use different additive packages, I'm not sure how they would be able to find a "base" fuel to standardize from anyway, but there's probably a way.

8) 2021 RAM HD High Output sales literature explains "more fuel flow" contributing to the power rating increase. Does this hint at another pump revision or a different unit? Simply more pressure like the Fords run (that have less failures)? We will see.

I would caution people to disregard any information about the CP4 on other vehicle platforms. Ford still uses it, but they just don't have the failure rates that the RAM HDs saw from 19-20. The pumps are all similar in this CP4 family, but they are specific to the engine design and are specifically "tuned" for certain pressures. There's just something about the ones on RAM HDs that are causing this unusual failure rate.

Also, it would be nice to have a MAIN CP4 thread that we can stick to. There's like 4 different threads going and having all the info in one place would be nice and likely cut down on the perceived fervor over this issue.
 
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UglyViking

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@Epsilon Plus This is probably the best post related to the CP4 I've seen. No random "I know a guy" or anything, just the raw facts. I wish I could give you a trophy for this.
 

Wmhjr

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@Epsilon Plus This is probably the best post related to the CP4 I've seen. No random "I know a guy" or anything, just the raw facts. I wish I could give you a trophy for this.

Agreed!

One comment just for the intent of providing further information. I have a July 2020 build date 6.7 SO. I also have the new large dimple pump. So, unless you meant Sept 2019, just wanted to provide info that new revision pumps are in some pre-Sept builds at least back into July.
 

red

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I have a 7/20 build date on my 3500 SO, it also has the large single dimple pump
 

Cummins3

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Great post.....maybe RamCares can chime in on any insight....... Mmmm prob not
 

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