Ram1shark
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Where is this YouTube channel anyway ? I’d like to look at this info please
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- Thread starter jetrinka
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Yes, what he said.
UglyViking
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I'll start out with the fact that I absolutely can't stand gov overreach, and with most of the climate change concerns the gov seems to have moved way faster than the private sector can support, but that's a rant for another day. As an avid outdoorsman I'm also very interested in keeping our world clean as possible, the whole "leave no trace", or maybe more accurate would be just don't scorched earth.
I don't believe that deleting gets you much better fuel econ than emissions in-tact tuning. Guys can argue all day but unless someone has tuned both, with data that shows, it seems to mostly come down to a tuned vs stock, not an emissions on vs deleted. That said, benefit of the doubt let's say that a delete gets you a whopping 2mpg better than stock, and let's also say that you're driving 30k miles per year and diesel costs $3.32 per gal. That means after 10 years you've saved $5,500 in fuel costs by being deleted. That delete probably cost you over 2k in parts, but benefit of the doubt you saved $3,500 over the course of 10 years having spent that 2k up front. Now from what I've seen, the vast majority of guys doing deletes are also running 35-37s which basically completely destroys the argument for MPGs but I digress.
The limp mode seems to be far and away the biggest concern, as does the cost of eventual DPF replacement. Manufactures really need to find better solutions to this as it's clearly not an easy fix, and especially difficult for guys working in the oil fields and such. If I were in that position I'd be hard pressed not to delete.
The horsepower and torque argument seems also a little difficult. You're not going to build a monster track truck or sled puller with emissions on, granted, but the newer trucks have quite a bit of headroom. Nick over at calibrated just ran 650 HP on his emissions on powerstroke, with just a drop in turbo and tuning, and the 5th gen cummins has a larger DPF, so it should have less restriction and more opportunity to get high HP.
I wish that the technology was 100% reliable, or that an issue didn't limp you into being stuck, and more. I don't hate on anyone deleting their trucks, but to be frank I'd say that about 80% of guys are looking to delete because sound, "power", and just to give the gov a big ole middle finger. All the reasons behind it just back up the decision they had already planned on and give them a stronger argument as to the "why". Not everyone is like that, but I'd wager a vast majority are. This is not to say that their isn't a lot of soapboxing from the emissions on crowd, as there is, but I'm just calling out what I'm seeing.
I don't believe that deleting gets you much better fuel econ than emissions in-tact tuning. Guys can argue all day but unless someone has tuned both, with data that shows, it seems to mostly come down to a tuned vs stock, not an emissions on vs deleted. That said, benefit of the doubt let's say that a delete gets you a whopping 2mpg better than stock, and let's also say that you're driving 30k miles per year and diesel costs $3.32 per gal. That means after 10 years you've saved $5,500 in fuel costs by being deleted. That delete probably cost you over 2k in parts, but benefit of the doubt you saved $3,500 over the course of 10 years having spent that 2k up front. Now from what I've seen, the vast majority of guys doing deletes are also running 35-37s which basically completely destroys the argument for MPGs but I digress.
The limp mode seems to be far and away the biggest concern, as does the cost of eventual DPF replacement. Manufactures really need to find better solutions to this as it's clearly not an easy fix, and especially difficult for guys working in the oil fields and such. If I were in that position I'd be hard pressed not to delete.
The horsepower and torque argument seems also a little difficult. You're not going to build a monster track truck or sled puller with emissions on, granted, but the newer trucks have quite a bit of headroom. Nick over at calibrated just ran 650 HP on his emissions on powerstroke, with just a drop in turbo and tuning, and the 5th gen cummins has a larger DPF, so it should have less restriction and more opportunity to get high HP.
I wish that the technology was 100% reliable, or that an issue didn't limp you into being stuck, and more. I don't hate on anyone deleting their trucks, but to be frank I'd say that about 80% of guys are looking to delete because sound, "power", and just to give the gov a big ole middle finger. All the reasons behind it just back up the decision they had already planned on and give them a stronger argument as to the "why". Not everyone is like that, but I'd wager a vast majority are. This is not to say that their isn't a lot of soapboxing from the emissions on crowd, as there is, but I'm just calling out what I'm seeing.
Great White North Eh
Squish Cat - And So
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I am not sure modern diesels are as fantabulous as people think. First they burn fossil fuels to mine the steel and burn some more to manufacture a chemical plant.Then they burn some more to deforest the earth to make the box that they put the petrochemical jug in to hold the DEF that a delivery truck burns fuel to haul it from Florida to Alaska. But I guess if it’s a good thing your truck is over fueling and wasting fuel so your tailpipe is cleaner than your colon. As long as people can sleep all peacefully in their little race car beds then I guess we all win!
H3LZSN1P3R
You're doing it wrong
Im deleting EGR for longevity of the engine and the DEF so i dont have to keep fighting with it freezing also the 1500$ it will cost for delete tune will pay itself off by not spending 50+$ a month on DEF… i am keeping the DPF as long as it keeps working right but if it needs to be replaced im not dropping 4k on a new one
Here the fuel savings that may happen if say 2mpg gets gained it will be about double you savings projection as fuel is about 7$ per gal roughly so 11k$ in 5 years
Linked4door
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With all these catalytic converter and DPF thefts, I think I might delete my truck so I can lock up my DPF. I wouldn't want it to get stolen.
UglyViking
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I get where you're coming from, totally do. If your fuel costs are that high, obviously my numbers hold less weight.
I am sharing mainly for two things.
#1 - I think that at least in the states there is more and more clamp down on deletes. Getting good tuning and hard parts is becoming massively difficult, so you're at the point where you're putting a lot of faith in a company being able to give quality tunes, there are a lot of fly by night tuners. At this point, with all the fines involved there is very little upside vs the fines that have come around. Also, more and more states are doing emissions testing, or clamping down further. Cali is supposedly stopping vehicles that are emissions free from even being registered from the road, even if they are older. (I don't know the final word on this) I guess my point is that, at least in the states, the writing is on the wall.
#2 - I'm hopeful that as more people "settle in" to emissions being a requirement that more companies release performance parts, and reliability increases. I'm eager for DPF that can be more easily cleaned and maintained and thus cheaper. It's currently a bit of a maintenance item that doesn't have a way to be maintained. Emissions on has also come a long way since the initial launches, and the reliability overall is up. Obviously, it's a more complex system so it does introduce more potential for failure.
I'm just trying to be a bit of a realist here. I get the desire for deletes, but I just think at a point it's a bit of a loosing battle. YMMV
H3LZSN1P3R
You're doing it wrong
Im in canada so its no hassle but the big thing is the DEF it is not setup properly for the extreme cold in the last month i have had to thaw out my def tank and deal with other def headaches way to many times now i have to bring it to the dealer on Wed to get it sorted out as i dont have the time it takes the reliability out of the truck, if i was in the south where its not this cold i would not worry about it
My desire for deleting was based 100% on emission issues. I hate that I had to and I was not looking for performance or mpg gain (which there is very little in these late model trucks) but I simply was not going to be stranded or sidelined because of them again. It is by far the most prevalent failure with these trucks. I hate the smell now and wish I wasn't forced down that road but at the end of the day it was the only realistic option.
They have got to come up with a better, more reliable solution then what we have on the table now. But there will always be the roll coal crowd flipping the middle finger no matter what.
.
elephantrider
Hydraulic Lifter Crew
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you can always run a 4" diesel cat to clean up the smell.
I called jenny craig for the same reason. my truck was down 3wks or so when I first bought it and said not again. don't have time for all that. haven't had any issues since amd the truck always runs on stock power setting.
..and I continue to clean up fca shortcomings with the cp3 swap.
I called jenny craig for the same reason. my truck was down 3wks or so when I first bought it and said not again. don't have time for all that. haven't had any issues since amd the truck always runs on stock power setting.
..and I continue to clean up fca shortcomings with the cp3 swap.
Great White North Eh
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You ‘’JENNYED’’ it!
. I got to call that girl one day.
. I got to call that girl one day.
AEV_CUMMINS
Well-Known Member
I agree with a few of your points and I too enjoy fresh air and plentiful wildlife while I pretend to be Elmer Fudd. I do need to add that at $1.90/liter of diesel, the math does get quite skewed. But to your point about guys that put on big tires and that you insinuate that they also throw out the care of fuel economy is just plain wrong. Putting 37's on a stock truck or a deleted truck will decrease mileage, yes.. but the deleted truck will 9 times out of 10 keep the fuel mileage to what it was with stock tires or thereabouts versus the stock truck with 37's turns the truck into a gutless turd that drinks more fuel than I did Colt45's back in the day.
In regards to your point about clean air, we can skip all the hooplah about the processing and statistics of carbon entering the atmosphere from a deleted truck versus manufacturing and running a truck to 400,000 miles through minimum 2 DPF's & SCR systems. But just note that the clean air act has and always will be reaching out for solutions that are most often times a double edged sword, politically charged and ahead of the current technology and mechanical limits of what strikes happy balances between reliability and real world numbers surrounding carbon deposits from manufacturing, use and through to the recycling or scrapping at the end of product life.
The limp mode and the ''in-ability'' to control what the technology inside your equipment does has and will forever be a battle between manufacturer, customer and government. For example, being an outdoorsman, you have probably found yourself in a situation where if you were to breakdown, it could be life or death depending on how prepared you are and situation. Not only can you not do a simple side of the road repair and get yourself back on the road but you are dealing with a computer that you have no control over and are left to the mercy of pulling fuses and resetting the plethora of electronics to try to get your life line of a vehicle to start in that situation. Where with a deleted or like you say, a properly tuned emissions on or off truck, this is far and away less of a risk and if it does ever occur, the ability to diagnose and by-pass the system is merely an inconvenience versus a serious situation. I and many others take this very seriously and put personal and family safety over the fear of an over-reaching government one day catching onto the plenty loop holes.
Writing on the wall, yes, this is where trucks are going and emissions systems are here to stay and get further developed. However, with our current generation Cummins, I believe it will be one of, if not the last ''old school'' engine we can really turn back to the way we believe is the optimal setup for performance, reliability and efficiency. I plan to keep this truck until it does not serve my family anymore and I know that with the aftermarket support, oem part availability, that should be a long time. I as well as many others live in areas where the over-reach has not caught up and it is perfectly fine to toe the line of modifying our equipment to serve us better. But yes, one day this will be such an old topic of conversation it will sound silly.. because where does it stop? Bring up Cali laws? Lets talk about not being able to buy a gasoline/diesel generator without headache or road-blocks, or the limit of how loud an exhaust can be, or what the RPM act is fighting with the disgraceful law trying to be brought in making it illegal to modify vehicles in all sorts of ways. At what point do we lay down? Well when it makes sense and there are alternatives that are better. Who knows, maybe the next generation Cummins will be so powerful, so reliable and so fuel efficient and combined with the best emissions equipment that nobody will want to delete. Or they may just write the engine codes like AISIN writes transmission codes and make it extremely difficult to tune.
I always appreciate another point of view and am happy to discuss further. But you ought to wonder, if it was a factory option to have emissions components or not, how many would be ordered in either way? I think we agree on many things and your point about emissions-on tuning being an excellent way to have your cake and eat it too, but even then you are toeing a line of legal versus illegal and throwing out a warranty that is over 50% of the time used to cover the parts left on. One last thing and then my keyboard gets a break.. I wonder if your opinion and others with similar opinions on deleting would feel the same way if you got to take a look inside the intake tract of a Cummins with even just 60,000 miles on it after stock or worse, emissions-on tuning.
UglyViking
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@AEV_CUMMINS Thanks for the detailed response man. I appreciate that you took the time for such a detailed response. I am not going to comment on each and every aspect, as I suspect we both personally agree more than disagree but a few things I do want to respond to.
Again, I say all that respectfully and none of it sarcastically. I think our federal government basically knows nothing more than overreach today, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was another song by the same band. That said, I have seen the smog around LA (I used to be a Cali kid, don't blame me) clean up substantially since I was young and now when I go back to visit I'm shocked about how clear it is compared to what I had become used to growing up. Is emissions on diesel trucks the only reason for that? I'm sure not, but I'd be willing to bet it's one of the major factors. I don't think that disliking the government and also realizing that they get some things right is somehow at odds.
I'd love to see any data you have on this, no joke. The data that I've seen on deleted vs not was around the VW dieselgate scandal and it was very clear that the emissions equipment did it's job. I don't have NOx/Carbon emissions for the creation of the EGR/SCR/DPF system or manufacturing DEF, not to mention transport. Unless you have data that claims the opposite it seems that we would be at a bit of an impasse here. I can understand the theory here, but without the data neither of us can "prove" our point.
As an outdoorsman you need to prepare for these situations no matter what. Even if you deleted your truck and had the best tuner on earth, things happen, some of which you can prepare for and others you can't. I'm not going to list out the litany of potential issues that could leave you stranded on the side of the road. Is it more likely to happen with an emissions on truck? Sure, probably. How high is that percentage chance?
That isn't really the argument I'm making here. If the gov didn't require this I don't think anyone would have it. To be honest, this is a bit of a strawman argument as now I'm in a position of trying to defend a government that I previously stated has and does continue to overreach. To go back to an earlier point, the data currently shows that the emissions coming out of a tailpipe with all the factory emissions equipment is orders of magnitude lower than what is coming out of it without those systems active (again see dieselgate). If you have data that proves otherwise then please share it! If we (diesel owners) had that sort of data we could put together a case to work to repeal laws. We can show true harm to owners and all for profit of someone else. Since these systems have been a requirement for the past 14 years and that data has not come out I'm assuming it's either impossible to get, or it's not quite as positive as the claim leads one to think. Keep in mind that Kory of PPEI fought the EPA in court over this, so I'd assume that he and his team would have pulled out all the stops to showcase the little/no harm his tuning did. Since they never won I'll take it me earlier point remains.
This is an argument that I don't think I'll ever understand. The exhaust that goes into the intake and back into the piston came from said piston. People always say "it's eating it's own ****!", which while maybe accurate is kind of missing the point. The explosions happen in the piston, that exhaust is in there till it's evacuated by the exhaust stroke. It's not like this is some completely different system. Does the engine run better without it? Sure, but let's not pretend like we are causing irreparable harm by having a tiny amount of exhaust get mixed with fresh air in a system that is about to have another explosion.
Again, I say all that respectfully and none of it sarcastically. I think our federal government basically knows nothing more than overreach today, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was another song by the same band. That said, I have seen the smog around LA (I used to be a Cali kid, don't blame me) clean up substantially since I was young and now when I go back to visit I'm shocked about how clear it is compared to what I had become used to growing up. Is emissions on diesel trucks the only reason for that? I'm sure not, but I'd be willing to bet it's one of the major factors. I don't think that disliking the government and also realizing that they get some things right is somehow at odds.
GPurcell01
Well-Known Member
The emissions equipment definitely do their job just like any modern vehicle. Gas or diesel. But what I find interesting is you cannot do a sniffer test on a diesel in a regen and have it pass... there are also many claims of white smoke from all brands and commercial when the DPF really gets full and it goes through a regen. That would be the data I would like to see. When a regen happens, what is coming out of the pipe and how does is offset the rest of the vehicles operation? I have been told a CAT screener smoke worse than a locomotive with a blown turbo while it did a regen after the DPF got full. I understand it's a Tier 4 off road piece of equipment, but it still has a DPF, SCR, EGR, and DEF.
Yes it is waaaayyyyy better today than it was before. Something to realize is, gas vehicles also produce particulates out of the exhaust. All vehicles do. Before catalytic converters, etc. existed, this was the main reason for the smog. Did diesels also contribute? Absolutely but not as much as you'd think.
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"Intact" tuning will do just that. Turn off the EGR and DEF usage but keep the DPF in place and functioning. There are several tuners in Canada that can provide that type of tuning.
What town would that be?
One with drag strips at every stop light apparently.
There would be far less demand for deletes if these manufacturers could get the emissions systems to be more reliable. I’m seeing far too many new trucks with premature DPF and DEF related failures. That leaves a sour taste in buyers’ mouths. The issue is compounded by dealerships who, when faced with these trucks, can not reliably diagnose or rectify said issues. There’s been a recent uptick in 2022-2023 trucks experiencing P2459 regeneration frequency codes. 70% of the trucks I’ve collected data for on the regen frequency tracking sheet are 2022’s. When you buy a brand new $100k pickup and are forced to make payments on it while it sits at the dealership for weeks trying to figure out why it’s regenerating every 100 miles or less, that leaves the owners in a poor position. Many of whom rely on the truck for a living. Deleting becomes ever more enticing every minute the truck sits idle simply because it is a guaranteed way to make the reliability of the truck increase exponentially.
Reliability of the systems themselves and the capability of the dealer-level support are critical factors in the equation.
Reliability of the systems themselves and the capability of the dealer-level support are critical factors in the equation.
If you are doing it to gain mpg you are going to be very disappointed.... These late model DEF trucks are pretty dialed in from the factory. Don't believe the social media "experts" that are saying they gained 5-10mpg, they are just victims of the common core math generation
.